Sourced Transcript for BSFC #11: Kristy and the Snobs
Brooke Suchomel: 0:19
Welcome to The Baby-sitters Fight Club, where the first rule is, you don't talk about Fight Club. Instead, you talk about the Baby-sitters Club series of books by Anne M. Martin. I'm Brooke Suchomel.
Kaykay Brady: 0:30
And I'm Kaykay Brady.
Brooke Suchomel: 0:32
And this week we are taking you back to March 1988, when Rick Astley's "Never Gonna Give You Up" hit number one for two weeks.
Kaykay Brady: 0:42
Beautiful.
Brooke Suchomel: 0:42
So Rickrolling was born.
Kaykay Brady: 0:44
Rickrolling was born!
Brooke Suchomel: 0:45
Rickrolling was born this month.
Kaykay Brady: 0:47
Except at that point, we took it seriously. It was no kind of ironic pleasure.
Brooke Suchomel: 0:52
No, no, no, it was just like pure unadulterated lifting up the musical quality of Rick Astley. You know? Rick Astley was worshipped as he should be.
Kaykay Brady: 1:02
I thought you were gonna say "lifting up the musical quality of the world."
Brooke Suchomel: 1:06
Well, that too. Lifting up the musical quality of Rick Astley and the world is one and the same, as far as I'm concerned.
Kaykay Brady: 1:12
"I'm going to lift you up."
Brooke Suchomel: 1:15
So that was a big hit. And the California Raisins version of "I Heard It Through the Grapevine" hit number 84 on the Billboard charts. Do you remember how big of a deal the California Raisins were?
Kaykay Brady: 1:26
I sure did, and I think even at 11 I thought it was stupid.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:31
Really?
Kaykay Brady: 1:32
Yeah, kind of. Although I think I did have a California Raisin doll, maybe? It was a big plastic...
Brooke Suchomel: 1:39
Oh, you had a big one?
Kaykay Brady: 1:40
Well, you know, four inches. Sort of like Mr. Potato Head size.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:45
My uncle was a manager at a Hardee's, which is like the equivalent of a Carl's Jr.
Kaykay Brady: 1:51
Hey, it's better than hanging on to a combine!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:55
Right. So for Christmas every year, my Christmas gift from my uncle would be a collection of all of the toys that they put in their kid's meals over the course of the year. It was dope.
Kaykay Brady: 2:09
Wow. That's sick.
Brooke Suchomel: 2:11
They had a deal with the California Raisins, and so they had all of these little miniature two, three inch California Raisins figures that did different things. My favorite one was the one that played the saxophone. Along with my brass bunnies, that's what decorated my room, these little mini California Raisins, and the Smurfs, too. The California Raisins were huge, and I will say that the California Raisins Christmas Special holds up. The music was actually respectable, perhaps better than, you know, Rick Astley.
Kaykay Brady: 2:54
You're having me rethink the California Raisins. And as you're speaking, I'm realizing I had the exact same dolls. They were not four inches. They were two inches, and they had moving arms and moving legs and big sneakers.
Brooke Suchomel: 3:07
Was that Carl's Jr. then, for you?
Kaykay Brady: 3:09
I doubt it. We didn't go to Carl's Jr. or anything like that.
Brooke Suchomel: 3:13
Okay, well then perhaps the Ice Cream Man got them from Carl's Jr. and handed them to you.
Kaykay Brady: 3:19
And dropped them off. He was stepping up his game.
Brooke Suchomel: 3:22
In movies, Beetlejuice was released in theaters on March 30.
Kaykay Brady: 3:26
Yes! I could go on all day about this movie. All day.
Brooke Suchomel: 3:30
What jumps into your mind when I say Beetlejuice?
Kaykay Brady: 3:32
Well first, of course, the quote, "My whole life is a dark room. One big, dark room." And then also every line by Catherine O'Hara in that movie. She's a fucking genius in that movie.
Brooke Suchomel: 3:48
She's a fucking genius in pretty much everything.
Kaykay Brady: 3:51
It's so funny. I watched Sunset Boulevard for the first time, and I realized that her character in Schitt's Creek is totally- what's her name?
Brooke Suchomel: 4:00
100 percent. Gloria Swanson.
Kaykay Brady: 4:02
It's 100 percent Sunset Boulevard.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:04
Now I'm picturing a remake of Sunset Boulevard starring Moira Rose. Catherine O'Hara as Moira Rose in Sunset Boulevard, can you think of something better?
Kaykay Brady: 4:16
I can't.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:16
I dare you.
Kaykay Brady: 4:17
It's impossible.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:18
It can't be done. Now I'm going to watch Sunset Boulevard as soon as we're done with this, and transport Catherine O'Hara into that role.
Kaykay Brady: 4:26
That's what I did the whole time.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:28
So good.
Kaykay Brady: 4:29
The whole time, I was just thinking, "Oh my god, that is exactly what Moira would say."
Brooke Suchomel: 4:33
Ah, brilliant. And in other brilliance in March '88, Toni Morrison won the Pulitzer Prize for Beloved.
Kaykay Brady: 4:42
That's a fuckin' fine ass book.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:44
Indeed. So that's what was going on in the pop culture of March 1988, and then in other literature news, the 11th Baby-sitters Club book, Kristy and the Snobs, was released. So it's time for some back cover copy. And I quote, "Kristy's mom got married again last summer and now Kristy and her family live in a new neighborhood. The kids there aren't very friendly. In fact, they're, well, snobs. They criticize Kristy's clothes. They make fun of the Baby-sitters Club. And worst of all, they laugh at Louie, Kristy's pet collie, who's going blind. Nobody does that and gets away with it! Kristy's fighting mad, and she's not going to put up with it much longer. If anybody can beat a snob attack, it's the Baby-sitters Club. And that's just what they're going to do!" End quote.
Kaykay Brady: 5:35
Wow.
Brooke Suchomel: 5:38
I have to say, you know, this was a difficult book to read at a difficult time in this country right now.
Kaykay Brady: 5:46
Truth.
Brooke Suchomel: 5:47
For our listeners, we actually record a couple of weeks before the episodes are released, because I do all of the post production and that takes a lot of time. So Kaykay, you and I were exchanging messages about how heavy this book was-
Kaykay Brady: 6:05
I thought you're gonna say, "It's two weeks from now, who knows where the world is today? Who knows if we're still here?"
Brooke Suchomel: 6:11
For real. So for the record, we are recording this in between impeachment and inauguration. And so who the fuck knows exactly what is going on in this country, if we still have a democracy or not. So hopefully this will be released! Hopefully, you know, we'll still have open communication as a possibility. But, you know, with all of the turmoil that we're facing right now, and then reading about a lot of turmoil that, you know, both Kaykay and I have had dogs that we have had to put down in the not too distant past. Fairly recently, we've had to go through this ourselves, and so it was an unexpectedly heavy book to read at his time.
Kaykay Brady: 7:07
Yeah, they don't even say that in the back cover copy. So it says Kristy and the Snobs, but really it's a reckoning with death.
Brooke Suchomel: 7:17
Yeah!
Kaykay Brady: 7:18
Really, it should be Kristy Reckons with Death.
Brooke Suchomel: 7:22
Yeah, that would have been a much catchier title.
Kaykay Brady: 7:27
Wouldn't you pick that up for your kid?
Brooke Suchomel: 7:29
We should go back and like, put honest Baby-sitters Club titles on all of these.
Kaykay Brady: 7:34
That would be so fun!
Brooke Suchomel: 7:35
So this was a really heavy book. And since it does focus so much on how Kristy goes through loss, what was your reaction to the way that this book portrayed the emotions that a child goes through when they are reckoning with death, Kaykay?
Kaykay Brady: 7:58
Yeah, I thought it was a pretty apt representation of that, but mostly through the tertiary characters. For example, I felt that Kristy was kind of playing the straight man a little bit where she doesn't really have much reaction to the dog dying. She's just sort of being the witness to the experience, and also the witness to David Michael's experience. He has sort of the typical small kid reaction, where he can't really understand what's going on as the dog's getting sicker. He can't really grasp that the vet can't just give him some pills and fix it. And then, you know, when the dog dies, he doesn't want a new dog, although that's a normal reaction for grown people too. So I thought David Michael's characterization was really right on, but I almost had to laugh, because I saw where this topic was going about three chapters in and I was like, oh Lord, as if David Michael doesn't have enough to deal with.
Brooke Suchomel: 9:04
I know.
Kaykay Brady: 9:05
Now we're gonna have a book about his loyal sweet dog dying. Yikes!
Brooke Suchomel: 9:09
It's so sad.
Kaykay Brady: 9:12
I mean, David Michael's just been this sad sack this entire series. She sets him up for a lot of suffering.
Brooke Suchomel: 9:18
Seriously.
Kaykay Brady: 9:19
What did you think?
Brooke Suchomel: 9:20
One of the very first tabs that I have in this book, on page eight, Kristy mentions that one of David Michael's very first words was "Louie."
Kaykay Brady: 9:32
Oh, that killed me.
Brooke Suchomel: 9:33
And it says, "And Louie has always loved David Michael right back. Maybe he somehow sensed that David Michael was the only one of us Thomas kids who got cheated out of a father, since mom and dad got separated not long after David Michael was born. Who knows?" You know, that is a knife in the heart right there, that this kid who has gone through so much turmoil in his life, they're still trying to get settled in to this new home and all of that. Now his beloved dog that has been his constant companion and the one source of stability for him is now slipping away. And he's the one who notices it, right? He's the one that points out, "Hey, something's wrong with Louie." It is an interesting authorial choice to do what you said, where you don't see Kristy grappling with it as much. It's more that she is recording the reaction of the person who is, in a way, most affected by this. And it's David Michael.
Kaykay Brady: 10:40
Yeah. And as you're talking, I'm realizing something else. She's also worried about his reaction.
Brooke Suchomel: 10:45
Yes.
Kaykay Brady: 10:45
That is something a lot of people, and a lot of kids, do. So instead of feeling your own emotions, you're going to preoccupy yourself with protecting those that you love from feeling sadness, loss.
Brooke Suchomel: 10:57
Right, especially when you are a type A personality.
Kaykay Brady: 11:01
Right on.
Brooke Suchomel: 11:01
Like Kristy is. When you feel this sort of overwhelming sense of responsibility, and like, the need, and also I think the capability, for control. Lik
Kaykay Brady: 11:10
No question. , you're like, "Okay, there' a problem. I'm the one that fi es problems," and so you're al ays sort of hypervigilant for he problems to solve. I thi k, of the main characte s, Kristy and Dawn are both prob bly in that category, because t ey both come from tumultuous bac grounds, or, you know, having to step up and play a role that so ebody who is generally older wou d have to play. So yeah, I thi k that's a really good point t
Brooke Suchomel: 11:45
You know? at Kristy probably feels more of a responsibility for tending to David Michael and managing how e copes with this, than coping with her own feelings. Which will come back to you at some point.
Kaykay Brady: 12:06
Yeah. I mean, that's what a lot of people are working through in therapy, because it actually can be a great defense mechanism and a way to cope during crisis. It's just, at some point, it needs to be worked through and integrated. And sometimes that might be years later that people are integrating emotions they couldn't feel during initial trauma or crisis. So I think your theory is my theory, too. Kristy is gonna have to work through that at some point, and who knows when that will be.
Brooke Suchomel: 12:41
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 12:42
Kristy said something too, I was laughing, it was in the last chapter. I can't remember where it was, but she said something like, "Well, my brothers were babysitting, and my parents weren't home. Technically, they were in charge, but I still had to keep a watch on things." She is hypervigilant. Even when her older brothers are ostensibly in charge, she still feels like she has to be the one to make sure, you know, the house doesn't set on fire.
Brooke Suchomel: 13:08
Right. And I think that it's not accidental or coincidental that she's the female.
Kaykay Brady: 13:15
Yes.
Brooke Suchomel: 13:17
It's her brothers and yeah, they are older, but at the same time they're also taking the little kid and throwing him around the house like he's a football, right? So something could go wrong there.
Kaykay Brady: 13:32
It's possible, and they do live in a mansion. I feel like there's sharp things in mansions. I don't know, I've never lived in one.
Brooke Suchomel: 13:40
Oh yeah, of course. I mean, we find out that there are things like giant $2,000 fish fountains. Who knows what could happen?
Kaykay Brady: 13:48
I know, this was like a Showcase Showdown. We got the price of everything! All right, I might be going too far afield, but it's so interesting for me to talk about. The portrayal of wealth in this book did not really ring true for me, having gone from super poor Bronx to 1% Connecticut and New York circles. Because, first of all, that old money culture, you don't talk about money. That is like the one thing you don't talk about.
Brooke Suchomel: 14:21
Well, that's why I wonder if the Delaneys are new money.
Kaykay Brady: 14:27
Good theory.
Brooke Suchomel: 14:28
So we know that Watson's old money.
Kaykay Brady: 14:31
Correct, and he doesn't talk about money. You're right.
Brooke Suchomel: 14:33
Because Ben Brewer lived in this house, right? His grandfather lived in this house, so he's at least a couple of generations removed from coming into wealth. And we know that the Papadakises don't talk about money. She says that they're the ones that, if you didn't see their house, you wouldn't know that they were rich. It's the Delaneys, the ones that she classifies as the snobs, and you know, we'll go into that. I think that Shannon Kilbourne is a fucking nightmare and a horrible person, but we'll get into that. I think that she's worse than these kids, but anyways.
Kaykay Brady: 15:15
You're really blowing my mind though. I didn't even consider the fact that Ann M. Martin was actually throwing shade on the Delaneys, calling them trash new money. Because also, when she describes their house, it's like white shag carpet, white couch, and I'm like, that is no Connecticut home that I have ever seen. You need some puke Laura Ashley floral. You need some blue and yellow royalty blending. You know, it reminds me of how poor people think rich people drive Cadillacs, and the only people that drive Cadillacs are like, you know, middle class Italians, basically.
Brooke Suchomel: 15:56
Or wealthy farmers.
Kaykay Brady: 15:58
Yeah. Okay. Could be, too.
Brooke Suchomel: 15:59
Who get a fat subsidy check from the government as they rant about people on welfare. They also drive Cadillacs, and very, very expensive pickup trucks with extended cabs.
Kaykay Brady: 16:12
I mean, that sounds fun. I would drive that. That's the Venn diagram of rural whites and lesbians.
Brooke Suchomel: 16:19
Oh, pickup trucks? Yeah. And digging in the dirt. You know,
Kaykay Brady: 16:20
Yeah. getting your hands dirty. Oh, Carhartt. There can be a crossover there. For sure. I mean, gear of any type. Lesbians, we love our gear. Most of my Christmas presents to my partner are gear. The first thing I ever bought her? An axe. A super fancy axe.
Brooke Suchomel: 16:42
That is a traditional lesbian first anniversary. The one year a niversary is an axe, right.
Kaykay Brady: 16:47
Yeah!
Brooke Suchomel: 16:50
That's what I thought. You're just following tradition. It's beautiful. So, it's funny going back and reading it again, and realizing what got planted into your head and how the things that you read as a child can shape your worldview.
Kaykay Brady: 17:12
Of course.
Brooke Suchomel: 17:13
And growing up, I thought that all rich people had white rooms. There was a girl that I went to high school with who was like the rich girl at school, and I remember going to a party at her house and she had an all white room. And it validated my theory, right? It's almost like this idea of, we are so rich, we can afford to make something that would get destroyed in a second in a normal house. And if it happens? Whatever, we're so rich that we can just replace it. As opposed to me, to this day, like, our couch is 15 years old, and when I bought it, I was like, "Okay, what will cover up if we get a stain on it?" I'm very focused on the longevity of things. So yeah, the description of the Delaney's room with a white lacquer table. Even the TV is white.
Kaykay Brady: 18:09
It's very Space Age.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:11
Getting a jumpstart on Most 80s Moments, but that was an 80s-ass rich room, in my eyes.
Kaykay Brady: 18:20
Yeah, you just see a pile of coke on that lacquered table.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:25
Totally. You know, you mentioned that you went from Ice Cream Man apartment in the Bronx to the 1% private school circles, etc. Did the way that Kristy was trying to acclimate to her surroundings and try to figure out, like, we see that she starts out not wanting anything to do with the people in her neighborhood, which is a choice that she's able to make because she stays at her old school.
Kaykay Brady: 19:00
Right. Yeah, she has her social group. She has her social outlets.
Brooke Suchomel: 19:05
Right, so it's not like she is either completely alone or has to immerse herself in the environment that she's in. She can choose to say, "I'm just going to stick with my old social circle and pretend that the people that are surrounding me are really not there." As you were reading this, did this make you think about when you were in Kristy's shoes and what that process was of figuring out who you are and how you relate to people that are around you?
Kaykay Brady: 19:43
Yeah, definitely. It was really cool to read this from that context, because I did have an experience like it, and I think I probably reacted similarly where I had a very sort of rebellious approach to it. So whenever you sort of walk in these super rich private school circles, you know, there's the super rich, and then there's the people that are getting scholarships and free rides and stuff like that. And so there are people in the circles that don't have a lot of money, and a lot of them, their initial instinct is to just really want to be a part of it. But I had the opposite instinct, where I was just like, "This is stupid, and I don't really want to be a part of this." So I also had that kind of rebellious spirit about it. I also, like Kristy, had the same thing going on. I had a group of boys that I hung out with at home, and I just stayed, you know, hanging out with that group when I wasn't in school. So I, too, had a choice to be like, "Bye snobs." But the snobs are different. The snobs that I encountered, they don't talk about money. It's like everything's hidden. They're definitely excluding people that aren't wealthy, but nobody talks about it. It's never an outward thing of, you know, "I'm gonna make fun of you because of this." It's all hidden, which is almost worse.
Brooke Suchomel: 21:09
Yeah. So it's almost like, "You're beneath my recognition of your existence."
Kaykay Brady: 21:17
Correct.
Brooke Suchomel: 21:17
Like, it's not so much, "I see you, and I don't want to be around you." But like, "I don't even see you."
Kaykay Brady: 21:27
Yeah, that's way more accurate, I would say, to the experience.
Brooke Suchomel: 21:32
It does seem like that would actually be, for some people, more traumatic. Especially at an age like this.
Kaykay Brady: 21:41
Exactly. And it really creates, for some reason I escaped this, imposter syndrome in these spaces. I always kind of felt, God, it's gonna sound so bad, but I almost felt like I was better than them. You know? Because I came from an Irish working class family where I felt capable and strong, and, you know, salt of the earth, and I really had a sense of who I was, and my values. And I was very lucky because I was good at most things. When you go to private school, you know, that's the only way you're gonna get respect if you're not rich. Do you get good grades? Are you an athlete? Are you a strong debater? And I was all of these things. In fact, I was better than a lot of the rich kids, and so they gave me kind of a begrudging respect. I was really lucky in that way, but I think a lot of kids go through this and they get this forever imposter syndrome of like, "I want to be part of that inner circle. And even if eventually I can look like them, even if eventually I can sound like them and act like them," inside they're always gonna feel like they're not really them. I got really lucky I never had that, but I had a lot of friends that struggled with that.
Brooke Suchomel: 22:54
Yeah, I bet. I didn't know you were a debater!
Kaykay Brady: 22:59
Well, you know, when you go to one of these East Coast ridiculous private schools, there's just certain things you do. You have sit down dinners, and you have to do debate, and you have to do elocution, and all this weird shit.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:14
What?
Kaykay Brady: 23:17
Well, you know what I mean? It's like, they teach Latin. I didn't take Latin. Luckily, I escaped that. But there's just this really old school patrician thing that you're going to do at all of these schools. We had this contest, it was called the Hyperboles. You had to write an exaggerated story, and then you had to give the exaggerated story out loud to your class. First, you had to do it with your English class and the English class voted who advanced to the semifinals. Then you had to give it to a bunch of English classes. Then you advance to the finals. You gave it to the whole school, and they crowned a winner. And I won it the year that I started at private school. So I was like, "Right up your ass, private school kids! I won your contest."
Brooke Suchomel: 24:07
So wait, what was the exaggerated story? Do you remember what your story was?
Kaykay Brady: 24:11
Oh damn, do I remember. So, I pulled the fire alarm twice in one day at my old public school, and I got suspended and they sent me to a probation officer. I was a fucking legend at this public school.
Brooke Suchomel: 24:35
Wait, why did they send you to a probation officer? Were you charged?
Kaykay Brady: 24:41
It's a federal crime. I can't believe I haven't told this story. They literally had four plainclothes officers at school, and four uniformed officers come to school to arrest me.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:02
How old were you?
Kaykay Brady: 25:08
Seventh grade.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:10
Hell yeah. So like, the age of these kids. You are a Baby-sitters Club member.
Kaykay Brady: 25:16
Yes. So I was suspended and my dad was basically like, "This kid is going on the wrong track," and he sent me to a ridiculously fancy private school with the 1%.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:36
That was your punishment.
Kaykay Brady: 25:38
That was my punishment. And that's what I wrote about. I wrote a story about how I pulled the fire alarm and got arrested, and they fuckin' ate it up. I won the contest.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:48
Wait! Okay, so if you had to exaggerate the story, if that was the goal-
Kaykay Brady: 25:54
I barely exaggerated it.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:55
I was gonna say, what did you say you did?
Kaykay Brady: 25:59
I think the way I exaggerated it was just in my language, the way that I described it. I described it very well, and I described my emotions as very exaggerated. I don't know. I'm Irish, like, we exaggerate everything. It's natural.
Brooke Suchomel: 26:14
You're like, "I strolled in in a studded leather jacket, and I pulled it with two middle fingers up. I pulled the fire alarm with just my middle fingers. And then I skateboarded down the hall."
Kaykay Brady: 26:28
Bart Simpson! Yes.
Brooke Suchomel: 26:29
Like, shooting silly string. Oh, hell yeah. Hell yeah. Oh my god. I love that so much. I love that you pulled it twice in one day. That is such a baller move.
Kaykay Brady: 26:40
Well, I had to show my friend. So here's what happened. There was a mirror in the bathroom, but it wasn't a full length mirror, so if you wanted to look at your cuffs of your jeans, you had to jump up on the sink. And of course, we were all wearing French rolled jeans.
Brooke Suchomel: 26:59
This was very important. Yeah. You were given no choice, really.
Kaykay Brady: 27:05
Well, we were all wearing French rolled jeans, and you remember when you would French roll your jeans, that shit would pop out all the time. You gotta be careful!
Brooke Suchomel: 27:13
I'll just translate for Midwesterners. "French rolling" is "tight rolling." Continue.
Kaykay Brady: 27:18
All right, so I've hopped up on the sink to check out my French roll. It was looking tight, it was looking good.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:23
Was it tight? Okay.
Kaykay Brady: 27:25
It was tight, it was right. And I look above me, and I see this weird, circular thing. It has like a tag hanging off of it, and it just looked curious to me. I wondered what it was, so I pulled the tag out. And then "Brr! Brr!" Fire alarm. They evacuated the entire school. 10 fire trucks came. They evacuated the school for like six hours.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:48
Oh my god, you must have felt like a queen.
Kaykay Brady: 27:52
I was perplexed.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:53
The power. The power!
Kaykay Brady: 27:55
It was pretty sweet. And then I went over to my friend, my best friend who I've mentioned before, Leanne, and I said, "Hey Leanne, I did that." And she's like, "Get the fuck out of here. You're full of shit. You didn't do that." And I said, "I did do that. I'll show you." So we marched right back to the same bathroom. I jumped up on that sink, boop, pulled that shit again. They evacuated the school again.
Brooke Suchomel: 28:22
So, if I'm hearing the story correctly, the fad of French slash tight rolling jeans sent your life down a completely different path than it otherwise would have gone on had that fashion trend not taken off. Is that correct?
Kaykay Brady: 28:43
I love your frame on this. It was obviously a frame I did not take in my Hyperbole contest, but it's very strong. I mean, it's a strong frame, and that's correct. Yeah, so that's when I started going to private school. Private school was actually great for me, because it was smaller class sizes and I did get away from all the trouble making friends that I had in public school. And I started slaying it left and right with shit like the Hyperbole contest.
Brooke Suchomel: 29:11
Wow. I love that that is your introduction to your new school, too. It's not only that you won this contest, but that you won this contest by making sure everyone in that fucking school knew that you were not the one to be fucked with.
Kaykay Brady: 29:28
They did know that.
Brooke Suchomel: 29:29
That you will pull the fire alarm, not once, but twice, and you will do it again.
Kaykay Brady: 29:36
Oh, I'll give you the story of the first day that I was at the school. So I was sitting in Choir, and all of a sudden I feel something on my head. And I touch the top of my head and there's like little pieces of paper that three boys behind me had been ripping up and putting onto my head. I turned around, and I took my arm and I overturned a whole row of chairs, violently. And I got within one inch of the head motherfucker's face and I said, "If you ever do anything like that to me again, I will break your fucking face." I can't explain the look on their faces.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:20
I was gonna say.
Kaykay Brady: 30:21
Like, they are used to Shannon. They are used to Shannon, and this is what they get. They almost pissed themselves, and they never bothered me again.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:30
Good for you.
Kaykay Brady: 30:31
They just were afraid of me.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:33
See, that's the thing. That is the kind of response that I expected from Kristy.
Kaykay Brady: 30:39
Yes, good point.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:40
That you didn't see in this book.
Kaykay Brady: 30:43
She was pretty muted, actually.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:45
She was really muted, and that made me sad.
Kaykay Brady: 30:51
It was sad.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:51
I mean, I thought it was good that she figured out pretty quickly what Shannon was up to and then turned it back around on her, like, "Oh, that's a fake pizza for me? Well, no no, it's actually for her," and sends it back to her, etc.
Kaykay Brady: 31:10
Pretty good burn. I mean, it's no flaming pile of shit on her doorstep. But it's a decent burn.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:15
Right, exactly. You did get the special delivery of diapers, I guess, but you could do better. Step up your game, Kristy.
Kaykay Brady: 31:24
I mean, if those diapers were filled with shit, which you can get, by the way. That is a service.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:28
And on fire.
Kaykay Brady: 31:29
You can send someone a shit-filled baby diaper. You can literally do this. Now that would have been decent!
Brooke Suchomel: 31:36
I love that you know this. You're like, "Hey, for the record, in case anyone isn't aware, this is a service that I may or may not provide."
Kaykay Brady: 31:45
No, it's a guy with twins. He does it. So he takes his twins' shitty baby diapers and he'll send it to your enemies.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:55
Wow. I mean, whatever it takes to earn some extra income.
Kaykay Brady: 31:59
Do what you love!
Brooke Suchomel: 31:59
That's creative. Good for him.
Kaykay Brady: 32:01
Live your dream!
Brooke Suchomel: 32:02
But you know, it seems like Kristy, first of all, the way that she let those horrible children, the Delaneys, tell her, like, "Get me a Coke."
Kaykay Brady: 32:15
And she just does it.
Brooke Suchomel: 32:16
And she does it, because she's like, "Well, I can't exactly not do that the first time I sit for them." It's like, you absolutely can and should. You know?
Kaykay Brady: 32:25
Yes, you can absolutely say so. And it seems very not Kristy. There was another moment that felt very non-Kristy to me. It's the beginning intro pages, where they always do the same thing where they say, "Oh, this is the Baby-sitters Club, and I'm the president." They basically give some exposition in the first few pages. And in the exposition, Kristy says, "I kind of dress babyish" and "I don't yet dress up," as if she has the meta perspective of being able to see, "Oh, someday I'm going to dress differently." I don't know, it was too meta to be in a 13 year old’s brain.
Brooke Suchomel: 33:05
Yeah. I mean, she does claim early on that, you know, she defines her uniform, which she says is a turtleneck, sweater, jeans, and sneakers.
Kaykay Brady: 33:15
I hope they're French rolled. Do you think they're French rolled?
Brooke Suchomel: 33:20
You can't see it on the cover, but they don't appear to be French rolled.
Kaykay Brady: 33:24
For our listeners, you can see she's wearing jeans, but Louie is laying down in front of her jeans, and you can't see any French roll.
Brooke Suchomel: 33:32
You can see a little bit of the hem of her jeans, just a little bit, and they do not appear to be French rolled. Which is unfortunate.
Kaykay Brady: 33:40
A tragedy.
Brooke Suchomel: 33:41
But I noted for the first time- I knew, having read all of these before, that in either Chapter One or Chapter Two, there's always exposition about what the Baby-sitters Club is, how the Baby-sitters Club works, and who's in it. Just some basic facts. Because this is written in a way, since it is a series, that you can pick up at any book and at least orient yourself to the key things that you need to understand to be able to get what you need to get out of the book. And then you can go back and start from the beginning, if you choose to do so.
Kaykay Brady: 34:17
Yeah, and it makes sense for the time period. Because, you know, you're getting this from the library, and maybe Book One is not available, so you're gonna get Book Six.
Brooke Suchomel: 34:25
Exactly.
Kaykay Brady: 34:25
You probably wouldn't have to do it as much today because you just download it on a Kindle or whatever, or order them all.
Brooke Suchomel: 34:31
Right. They're the kind of thing that you start to glaze over.
Kaykay Brady: 34:34
Yeah, I kind of check out when that comes.
Brooke Suchomel: 34:37
Right, you know as a longtime reader what's coming. So I remember, when I was younger I would always just skim that, but reading it now, I'm going back and kind of looking at it with, "Okay, what are they trying to do specifically in this book with the words that they're choosing and with who's saying it?" Like, what are they focusing on, really trying to get into that. And I did think that it was really interesting, to your point, that Kristy is the one who breaks down, for each girl, she gives the quote unquote "Essentials." Those Essentials, by category, are Likes, Dislikes, Looks, Dress, and Personality. And for Kristy to pick Looks and Dress as two categories to focus on is odd.
Kaykay Brady: 35:29
It is odd. I agree.
Brooke Suchomel: 35:30
Because those aren't things that she cares about. Unless you look at it from the lens of, as a 13 year old in this time, the messages that you are getting at all times is that those are the things that actually matter the most, how you look and how you dress. As a 13 year old girl in 1988, that is what society tells you you should care about. Because you're getting to that age where, once you hit puberty, get ready to be a woman, and to be a woman is to be a decorative object, so you need to focus on that. So if you're hearing that and you don't care about it, an it feels very foreign to you, it might take precedence in you mind, because you're just like, "I'm going to fixate on this because I'm being told that I should, but I don't understand it.”
Kaykay Brady: 36:18
That's such a great point. Well, if it was any other of the Baby-sitters, I could have bought it, but it's just Kristy I don't buy.
Brooke Suchomel: 36:26
Right, it's the fact that it's Kristy.
Kaykay Brady: 36:28
And it could be because I read Kristy as very close to my heart, and possibly associate myself too closely with her. It could just be that I'm seeing it with my own 13 year old brain, but that's why I just thought, it doesn't ring true for me with Kristy. But any of the other kids? I buy it.
Brooke Suchomel: 36:49
Right, Stacey in particular. This seems like these would be categories that Stacey would focus on. Claudia would actually be too cool, she wouldn't give a shit.
Kaykay Brady: 36:57
Yeah, she'd barely notice, probably.
Brooke Suchomel: 36:58
Right. But I think if you look at it from the lens of Kristy feeling very out of place in her new environment, and feeling that one of the reasons why she does feel so out of place is that she knows that she doesn't focus on these things that other people focus on, particularly people in her new environment. In that case, then, you know, that's I think where you can see it. But the part that actually was the most concerning to me about the subtext that a girl reading this would pick up was when Kristy compares her personality and Mary Anne's personality. So she starts off by being like, "Okay, here are the essentials about Claudia." And so it's just like Claudia is knocked out as a person. She does the same thing later with Stacey and Dawn. Each of them get their own paragraph. Kristy and Mary Anne are a single paragraph. With Claudia, Stacey, and Dawn, it's "Here are their likes, dislikes, looks, dress, personality," as individuals. With Mary Anne, Kristy's like, "Here are my likes, here are Mary Anne's likes. Here are my dislikes, here are Mary Anne's dislikes." So she lumps these things together. But then when she talks about personality, these are three sentences in succession, "My personality, outgoing, big mouth, friendly. Mary Anne's personality, cautious, sensitive, shy. Parentheses. (She has a boyfriend. I don't.)" So, I'm a firm believer that every word choice is deliberate, and every placement of a sentence is deliberate.
Kaykay Brady: 38:49
Well it's certainly meaningful, even if you don't know it's deliberate.
Brooke Suchomel: 38:53
Right, I'm not saying it is consciously deliberate. But whether it's conscious or subconscious, there is a reason that things go in a particular order. There is a message that is intended to be conveyed by those choices. And as a young girl reading this, what would you take away from that order of presentation? Besides, if you want a boyfriend, be cautious, sensitive and shy. Don't be outgoing with a big mouth and friendly.
Kaykay Brady: 39:33
Well, especially in light of what you were saying about the last book, about this love bombing shit. So not only does she have a boyfriend, but she has this boyfriend that seems unusually attentive and looks like a celebrity.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:50
Right. It's like, "Well, be a husk. Be a husk that somebody can project their idea of you to."
Kaykay Brady: 40:01
Fuck that. You know what, Kristy? Lesbians love big mouths that are funny and outgoing. It will work very well for you, Kristy.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:09
Right, go and pull that fire alarm. Pull that fire alarm twice, two middle fingers up the entire time. You know what?
Kaykay Brady: 40:18
Tell those boys to fuck right off.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:20
Right. The girls will be lining up for you, Kristy. But that part just jumped out at me, so strong.
Kaykay Brady: 40:31
It's very telling.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:32
Yeah. Most of the time, I think that Ann M. Martin has a lot of really positive subversive messages in the books.
Kaykay Brady: 40:43
Definitely.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:45
For the most part. That particular segment, I thought, unfortunately, and I'm sure not deliberately-
Kaykay Brady: 40:54
That's exactly what I was gonna say. You know, she's swimming in the soup, too.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:59
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 40:59
And she's swimming in the soup of 25 years ago, 30 years ago.
Brooke Suchomel: 41:05
Yeah, so it really took me back to, you know, we've talked a lot about the past couple of episodes about Sixteen magazine, the teen magazines that girls are reading at that time. And so much of the content of those magazines was, here's what to do to get a boyfriend, here's what to do to be quote unquote "popular."
Kaykay Brady: 41:27
And it wasn't to be a big mouth and outgoing?
Brooke Suchomel: 41:29
No!
Kaykay Brady: 41:31
What?!
Brooke Suchomel: 41:31
Yeah, you know, so it makes me really want to, and this is something that I've been thinking about for a while, I'm actually trying to find out how I can get my hands on this. Just as I think that the Baby-sitters Club books are a great time capsule for the messages that young girls were receiving at that time, that have sort of shaped us into the women in our 30s and 40s that we are today, and how we view the world and our place within it. The teen magazines were huge for that too, because that's when you're shaping your sense of self. That's when you're sort of coming into your own. And the lessons that were taught in those magazines, a lot of them were really harmful.
Kaykay Brady: 42:18
So fucked up.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:19
And really reiterated things like, I doubt that I would have had an eating disorder to the extent that I did were it not for the teen magazines that I subscribed to. Were it not for constant articles about things like how to lose weight, and tips from skinny girls and things along those lines. And so, you know, if you're reading these teen magazines that are basically like, "Here's what you need to do to get boys' attention," so you're thinking, "Okay, this is the kind of thing that's important. This is what I should be focusing on."
Kaykay Brady: 42:55
At a very developmental time.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:58
Exactly.
Kaykay Brady: 42:59
Your brain is developing, your concepts of the world are developing. You're very malleable at that time.
Brooke Suchomel: 43:04
Absolutely. And then you read this book that is- just as an aside, because I think asides- so many times people focus on like, "What is your topic sentence? What is the thesis of the argument that you're conveying?" And I think that not enough attention is paid to the asides. The things that don't seem to be necessary, but are thrown in anyway. Again, everything is deliberate. What are you trying to say if you throw in something like, "She has a boyfriend, and I don't," right after you mentioned the difference in your personalities? That didn't need to be there, but it's there. Your reader picks that up, and that is a message that you are putting in that reader's head.
Kaykay Brady: 43:50
It's also so much more insidious, because if you come out and say, "You need to be shy and retiring and cautious to have a boyfriend," you can then refute that.
Brooke Suchomel: 44:03
Yes.
Kaykay Brady: 44:04
Your natural inclination as a human being is to consider that, because it's being placed in front of you as an argument. But if it's just an assumption, an aside that slid in there, this is- I wish I could remember the name of the psychological concept. Authoritarians do this all the time, where they basically say something as if it's an assumption, and that's how they make it fact. So they'll say, "Look. We all know the media is crooked. The question is, are they evil?" So, no, we don't all know that the media is crooked, but because you've just put it in there as an aside and an assumption, the human brain misses it.
Brooke Suchomel: 44:48
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 44:49
It misses the inference, and it goes to what you're purportedly arguing. So that's a psychological concept that is very effective for human minds. It's reminding me of what you're describing here. Of course, you know, the author's not doing it for nefarious purposes, but it's just showing that sort of psychological capacity. Like, the author thinks she's arguing this, but, you know, what is she displaying in the asides and the assumptions?
Brooke Suchomel: 45:15
Yep, definitely. I think that everything that you've said is so, you know, as we're saying, reading this book in a time where you feel this looming sense of autocracy, like, we've been living in looming autocracy for so long. But then when that actually erupts into something tangible that you can point to as like, "See, this is what I've been warning about all along," it really heightens your awareness of all of those little ways that people with negative intentions will chip away at your sense of reality. And at your, I think it's a really good point that you made, your ability to push back by choosing to present this as just sort of a fact. And not even saying like, "It's a fact that, because I am outgoing, I don't have a boyfriend. And because Mary Anne is sort of shy and retiring, she does." Again, if you put that out, then somebody is going to be like, "I hear what you're trying to convince me of, and I don't like that."
Kaykay Brady: 46:27
"And I push back."
Brooke Suchomel: 46:28
Right. But if you're just like, "Oh, I'm just stating some facts, it's up to you to draw that connection." That makes it more likely that other people will draw that connection that you want them to draw, because, a lot of people are resistant to being told what to think.
Kaykay Brady: 46:45
That's exactly true.
Brooke Suchomel: 46:46
But they're very open, much more open than they want to believe, to being manipulated into what to think. And one of the ways they do that, and we see this so much with right wing propaganda, is by saying, "Well, you think for yourself," you know? And they lure you in with like, "You're smart, you know what's going on, you think for yourself, you can see that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." They've buttered you up so that your mind is more open to what they're going to tell you. And then you're like, "This is a person who knows that I'm smart. So yeah, I agree with them. I'm going to agree with what they're saying, and that's not me being sucked in to their bullshit that they're sucking me into. That's me thinking for myself." And it's like, it's not, that's you just being manipulated by one of the oldest tricks in the book to do that. Clearly, you can see where my mind has been this week, where I'm going with all of that.
Kaykay Brady: 47:45
Same, girl. Same.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:46
So apologies if the tone of this particular episode is a little off.
Kaykay Brady: 47:50
Oh, no apologies needed.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:52
But yeah, I mean, it just goes to show you the ways that people are very susceptible to rhetorical tricks that they may not be conscious of.
Kaykay Brady: 48:05
Yeah. It's really interesting. And I feel through the course of these books, those have been the most interesting pieces to me. Not the explicit plots or the explicit arguments, but the implicit biases and assumptions that are packed in there.
Brooke Suchomel: 48:22
Absolutely. To that point, you know, we talked about how people can manipulate you to think something and to act a certain way. We see that spelled out explicitly in the chapter where we see Stacey the psychologist. She knows a lot about psychology because she read a magazine article about manipulation.
Kaykay Brady: 48:46
Oh yeah, this was so cool! She used reverse psychology.
Brooke Suchomel: 48:51
I was wondering what your take was on that chapter, and on the strategies that she deployed to bring the Delaney children to heel.
Kaykay Brady: 49:05
It's super brilliant, and it's so true. Psychotherapists use this all the time with clients, because again, it's sort of what you were saying before, people don't want to be told what to think. And they don't want to be told that they're wrong. And a lot of people are saying things and doing things to get a particular reaction from another human being. It's sort of a dance that they do, right? So they're used to doing this dance, they say something inflammatory or rude, the other person gets offended and pushes back, and now they're dancing in this argument that kind of gives them some energy. The brilliance of any kind of reverse psychology is you're just taking the fuel out. You're just pulling the fuel out, and all of a sudden there's nothing for them to fight against. So psychotherapists do this all the time, where you can have a client that says, "I don't need stop drinking. I just don't care. It doesn't matter to me what my behavior is." And you can take that and say, "Yeah, you don't care at all about what your behavior is." And then all sudden, they'll say, "Oh, well, I mean, yeah, I do. I mean, you can't not care about your behavior." But if you had fought that person, they would have fought you, right?
Brooke Suchomel: 50:21
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 50:21
So it's just such a brilliant strategy for human psychology. And I loved that Ann M. Martin knows it, and that she used it specifically with children. Because children more than anybody, you know, they're just always locked in these battles where they're constantly being told what to do. Everybody's lecturing them constantly. And when children are engaging in these sort of power struggles, there's a reason, you know. They have a need beneath that. And so, kids especially, reverse psychology can work really, really well, and help them get out of the sort of grooves they are in. I don't know, what did you think about it?
Brooke Suchomel: 51:04
Again, it's funny the things that I'm like, "Oh yeah, I remember," I think this was perhaps my first exposure to the concept of reverse psychology.
Kaykay Brady: 51:11
And so early to be exposed to this concept.
Brooke Suchomel: 51:13
Yeah. So I've always been really interested, I mean, my first career plan when I started out in college was to be a child psychiatrist. That was my initial goal. But then having not taken math for four years kind of caught up to me and threw a wrench into those plans. Don't test out of math super early so that you can spend the class periods that you would normally be in math just dicking around listening to Quad City DJs. That's my lesson.
Kaykay Brady: 51:46
Hot tip.
Brooke Suchomel: 51:47
Yeah, hot tip. But I felt that there was another aspect of it too, which was just throwing these kids off their game. Right? So yes, of course, it's taking what they say and not fighting with them. But then it's also the way that she kind of takes it to an extreme, just throwing shit all over their toy room. But first of all, I have to say, the parents in this book, their expectations they have of their babysitters is like, beyond. Why the hell did Mrs. Delaney start off the first babysitting gig by saying, "Hey Stacey, go up there and clean up the kids' toy room with them?" Like, what is that? So she should have trashed the room just for that.
Kaykay Brady: 52:36
We're on the slippery slope back to housework.
Brooke Suchomel: 52:39
Good lord. Well, you've got that, and then you find out that Mary Anne helped Mrs. Perkins paint the nursery and pick out curtain fabric. And then you've got Mrs. Papadakis having Shannon babysit for her kids immediately after she finds out that she pulled a fake fire drill on Kristy while she was babysitting.
Kaykay Brady: 53:00
That was so fucked up.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:02
What is the decision making process of these parents?
Kaykay Brady: 53:05
It's not good.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:06
It's not great. But yeah, I thought that so much of what might have been effective for Stacey was just the way that these kids could not predict her behavior. She must have just seemed completely nuts to them.
Kaykay Brady: 53:21
Yeah, and it's outside the game that they're playing, the dance that they're dancing. She's now stepped outside of that dance.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:27
Right. She's like, "I'm playing a completely different game. And my game is next level. So if we're gonna play games, this is the game that we're going to play. Your choice." And the kids are just like, "I guess we'll be normal."
Kaykay Brady: 53:45
I felt the first scene was really right on, and then the fact that their behavior immediately did a 180 basically, it's pretty exaggerated and never gonna happen that way.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:56
Right. It also struck me that Stacey was the one who did it. So Stacey, I love how in an earlier book she mentioned that they had a four bedroom apartment in Manhattan. So Stacey comes from money, you know? So that Stacey is the one that's like, "Oh yeah, I'll go over there. I don't know these kids, but I'll go over there. I read a magazine article. I'm have permed hair from New York. I can handle these rich kids."
Kaykay Brady: 54:24
What magazine articles is she reading? I want those.
Brooke Suchomel: 54:28
She says, "You have to know a little psychology and I happen to. Know psychology, that is. I read this magazine article called quote 'Getting What You Want - Dealing with Difficult People the Easy Way.’"
Kaykay Brady: 54:45
It's pure Dale Carnegie, right? How to Win Friends and Influence People.
Brooke Suchomel: 54:50
Yeah. I thought that part was good. But even more than the Delaney children, because it seems to me like these are the asshole children of assholes. You know?
Kaykay Brady: 55:04
"Hear, hear. These are the Asshole Children of Assholes! So it is written!"
Brooke Suchomel: 55:10
The fact that they know how much their cat costs, they know how much the fish fountain in their entryway costs, they've got the all white room, they've got the mom who is like, "Be my housekeeper, Stacey." These are just jerky children.
Kaykay Brady: 55:28
Yeah, and the aggressively preppy outfits that they're wearing on the cover, which made me really miss the J. Peterman catalog. You know these fuckers are shopping from the J. Peterman catalog.
Brooke Suchomel: 55:40
See, me growing up in Iowa, I'm like, "What?" I don't know what that is.
Kaykay Brady: 55:45
It was this ridiculously expensive snotty catalog that came out with old New York and old Connecticut style. So it would be like kilts and big Mackintoshes and stupid shit. There was a hot minute where I wanted to get a kilt, but they were made for ridiculously small people, and I was a fat little Irish woman, so it wasn't gonna work for me.
Brooke Suchomel: 56:13
I could still see you with a kilt.
Kaykay Brady: 56:16
But like, the way a man wears a kilt, right? Like with one of those knives.
Brooke Suchomel: 56:22
Right, exactly, with your axe. Carry your first anniversary axe around wearing a kilt and a Dolly Parton t-shirt. That would be dope.
Kaykay Brady: 56:35
I feel that you really see me right now. I'm feeling so seen.
Brooke Suchomel: 56:40
Good.
Kaykay Brady: 56:40
But yeah, you should check out old J. Peterman. So not only was it these snotty hand pencil-drawn images of these clothes, but then there would be ridiculous text like, "On a cold day in Nantucket." You know, just stupid rich people nonsense that I never understood.
Brooke Suchomel: 57:02
Wait, it's not even pictures of what you're buying?
Kaykay Brady: 57:05
No, it's artist renditions of what you were buying. You gotta look it up.
Brooke Suchomel: 57:11
This was after the time of photography, correct?
Kaykay Brady: 57:14
Way after the time of photography. They purposefully did this. And they fit you like garbage. Maybe, you know, if you were a tall, slender blonde, they fit you. They fit you like garbage, you had no idea what you were buying, they were insanely expensive. J. Peterman.
Brooke Suchomel: 57:28
So it's just like, "I have so much money, I can set this on fire and it won't matter. I can just set my money on fire. It's fine. Just give me a shitty picture of what this kilt might look like, I'll send you some money. Doesn't matter." Yeah, some people in this country have way too much money.
Kaykay Brady: 57:45
Yeah, that's what I always thought.
Brooke Suchomel: 57:47
This is evidence of the need for a wealth tax.
Kaykay Brady: 57:52
J. Peterman equals wealth tax!
Brooke Suchomel: 57:56
Yeah, so, rich people. In this book, I thought Shannon is a complete and utter sociopath.
Kaykay Brady: 58:06
Yeah. It's disturbing.
Brooke Suchomel: 58:09
And the way that her behavior is just brushed aside. Kristy says something about how she's gonna throw the slice of pizza at Shannon's dog if Shannon throws a slice of pizza in her face, and Shannon laughs, and then Kristy gives her half of the money for the pizza that she didn't order, that was ordered as a prank.
Kaykay Brady: 58:39
Yet again, doesn't ring true.
Brooke Suchomel: 58:41
No. And then it's like, "Let's have her join the club!" Even after you see she's a fucking sociopath. She just goes out of her way to torment Kristy. At first Kristy is like, "Oh, she's mad that I took her babysitting jobs." And then it comes out, she's not, because she says that she doesn't have the time to do all of the babysitting in the neighborhood. But that she's jealous that Kristy had a good idea that she didn't think of. Just saying "I'm jealous of you" is not an apology.
Kaykay Brady: 59:18
Not enough!
Brooke Suchomel: 59:19
That does not excuse behavior. You have shown who you are, you are not someone to be trusted with children. Do not endorse this person for your club. And also, don't socialize with this person. They treat you like shit. This is the thing, I wish there was more literature about this when I was a kid, because looking back, so many of my friendships were- I mean, not "so many" but I had enough of them. And ones that I thought, at the time, the most important friendships, where they were outright abusive. Young girls can be abusive to other young girls. And that is not something that is discussed nearly enough. And I think there were a lot of moments in here where you could see, particularly with the way that Stacey handled the Delaney children, and the way that Kristy failed to do that, you can kind of teach people how they can treat you. Not that it's your fault if someone treats you like shit. Not that it's your fault if you try to placate them, and it doesn't work. To make it very clear, I'm not saying that at all. But I am saying that people, if they learn that you will tolerate bad behavior from them, there are people that will then escalate that behavior.
Kaykay Brady: 1:00:52
Yeah. And people often seek out those that they can manipulate and abuse. You know, and that's little kids, and that's cult leaders, and that's CEOs.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:02
Absolutely. And what you see from Shannon is an escalation of bad behavior towards Kristy.
Kaykay Brady: 1:01:10
Oh, it's crazy.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:11
I guess this kind of brings me back to stuff this week. There are bridges that should be burned. Do you know what I mean?
Kaykay Brady: 1:01:21
Yeah. You know, when someone shows you who they are, believe it. You can't just fix that with a puppy.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:27
Exactly. And the puppy in and of itself reminded me of abusive relationships where somebody treats you like shit, and then they buy you something to try to cover it up, as if that is an apology, or even sort of cancels out their poor behavior. And then if you push back on them in the future for poor behavior, then they just come back and they're like, "Well, I gave you this," right? It's something to hold over your head.
Kaykay Brady: 1:01:55
You know, this character arc is just a really curious choice by Ann M. Martin. I don't know if she just needed to sort of tie a bow around it to wrap it up, but you're so right. The behavior is so egregious, so over the top, and then it's sort of tidied up in a pat way like, "Oh, she's actually okay. She gave you a puppy."
Brooke Suchomel: 1:02:16
Yeah. And she's not okay. She sucks. And then they name the dog "Shannon," so it's like, in a way, they welcome her into their family. And it's like, she sucks! If you want to take the dog, take the dog. Don't name it after her, and also, don't have anything to do with her. She sucks.
Kaykay Brady: 1:02:33
Yeah, my thinking was that really what Ann M. was trying to get to, behind this story, is death as the great equalizer. And death as the one thing that has everybody put aside their petty grievances and come together. I think, in her pursuit of that story, it's just this characterization is pretty careless. I think it's really cool, that story and that arc, and I'm like, damn, Ann M. is throwing down some massive existential truth bombs with this story, and I love it. But, I don't know, the Shannon character is not handled great. It's just way too over the top, and it gets tied up at the end in way too pat of a manner. Maybe that's because Ann M. wanted to really hit home the way that death brings people together and can actually be one of the most profound gifts you ever get in this life. Because all of a sudden, the wars and the battles that you've been so devoted to? They're meaningless.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:03:41
I think you're 100% right on what the intended message was. That's what I had for like, what are they fighting? I had "loss," and also "change." We haven't really talked about it, but something that comes up, and it's just one chapter, but I think it's really important, is we find out that Dawn's brother wants to move back to California.
Kaykay Brady: 1:04:01
Oh, that's right. I forgot that subplot.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:04:04
To be with their dad, and Dawn is really torn up about it. And Dawn and Kristy have a really nice exchange about the feelings of being caught in the middle, and feeling like you're not wanted. Dawn says, "I don't know which is worse, the thought that Jeff hates living with Mom and me and wants to leave us, or the thought that maybe Dad doesn't want him. And if Dad doesn't want him, I assume he wouldn't want me either. Not that I'd like to move back to California. It's just that I think that it's awful that your father doesn't want you." And then Kristy says, "Tell me about it," and talks about how she never hears from her dad. She doesn't think that her dad cares about them at all. They have this feeling of, even when you start to get settled- so Dawn is starting to get settled in Connecticut. This is the first time that we hear her say, "I don't want to move back to California." Up until now, it's pretty clear that she would rather be in California. Now, it seems like she's starting to set some roots down. And then her brother is unhappy. So it seems like, "Okay, now we're going to go through more tumult." Same thing with Kristy. Kristy is trying to get acclimated. Her dog, she says they got the dog right after she was born, and now there's this feeling of change throughout, and how do you deal with change, and how it's inevitable, and how do you cope with it? And the tool is "looking at that change as transformative." At the end, page 145, Kristy says, "Endings could sometimes be beginnings," which is very like, "Closing Time." That is the message, right? And I think that that's a good message. I just think that the behavior that is portrayed in this book is egregious enough to make me question the execution of that message. You know what I mean?
Kaykay Brady: 1:06:15
Agreed 100%. I just think this book has moments that- this series has moments that jump the shark. You know, I also thought it was a Jump the Shark moment when Kristy stomped on her friend's foot at a child's birthday party where they were being employed. There's just weird egregious little Jump the Shark moments.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:06:35
Right. And maybe it is like the Hyperbole thing, where she's like, "I need to take it just a little step further, to sink in your head." But she doesn't realize that what she's doing is actually undercutting her message.
Kaykay Brady: 1:06:51
Once in a while I do feel that, you know, all of a sudden, she thinks she's in some sort of hijinks story. You know, I'm hearing that pennywhistle again sometimes with some of the things that happen, especially the physical things that happen.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:07:05
Right. But at the same time, I remember, this is set in the 80s. And, man, I don't know that kids were really looked at with the respect for their ability to internalize what's going on and to really be conscious observers of their surroundings. I don't know how much that was recognized in that time.
Kaykay Brady: 1:07:27
I think, you know, this series is really unique in how it does give kids a lot of credit for being able to do that in a new way that wasn't often done. I mean, I won't say that this is the first time it was done, but I think it's done well. But I also think sometimes she takes it a step too far. Like we were saying before with Kristy's meta perspective on all of the kids, and she has this really great ability to get into all the Baby-sitters' heads. But then when it comes to tertiary characters, you don't get that so much. It's just like, "This is a crazy evil person! Oh, never mind."
Brooke Suchomel: 1:08:06
Yeah, it would have been different if Shannon was angry at losing a bunch of jobs.
Kaykay Brady: 1:08:10
Right. That would have been a more full characterization.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:08:13
Right. But to say, "I was just jealous because you had a good idea that I didn't think of," undercuts the motivation.
Kaykay Brady: 1:08:19
Yeah, it just feels like that character has not been fleshed out in the same ways.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:08:22
Yep, definitely. What did you have for 80s moments?
Kaykay Brady: 1:08:28
My big 80s moment was when Kristy is worried about missing the bus to school. She's a latchkey kid, and is just sort of contemplating how fucked she's going to be if she misses this bus, and I was just like, "Yes, right on!" That is exactly what it was like to be a latchkey kid. You know, Mom was at work, you gotta get your ass on that bus. And if you don't, you're fucked!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:08:56
There's no Uber.
Kaykay Brady: 1:08:57
There's no Uber! You know? So I loved that moment, and I thought, yeah, I remember that stress very well. But how about you?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:09:06
I had the decor. Watson's kitchen was probably the most 80s kitchen I've ever heard described.
Kaykay Brady: 1:09:15
I don't remember it.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:09:15
Oh, it was a country blue kitchen with blue and white tiled countertops.
Kaykay Brady: 1:09:22
Did I not say blue and yellow for a rich person's house? Boom! Slam dunk. This is exactly what I'm thinking. Watson is old Connecticut money here.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:09:31
To me it also sounded very, you know, we had the country blue kitchen, too. It's that sort of musty blue color, not really visually appealing, but was everywhere in the 80s. So they've got the blue and white tiled countertops, and copper pots and pans on the walls, and then they had matching curtains and wallpaper that was little pink and blue flowers on a cream background. Does that sound appropriately Connecticut?
Kaykay Brady: 1:10:03
It is. That's exactly what I would describe and, you know, floral. I would say the wealth in the 80s had sort of, like, classic ornate touches. And a lot of fathers in green studies with fox hunt pictures on the walls and boats, that kind of shit.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:10:27
In the Midwest, the green walls would be faux wood paneling, just cheap MDF everywhere. I also had Hawaiian Punch.
Kaykay Brady: 1:10:41
Oh yeah, Hawaiian Punch!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:10:42
Makes an appearance a couple of times at the tea party at the Perkins' and then at the Delaneys. And then the whole concept of a portable TV. At the Pikes, there's the little TV, you know, with the handle on it.
Kaykay Brady: 1:10:54
Sure.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:10:54
That's really, really long. So you'd have the long ass TV with a really tiny-
Kaykay Brady: 1:11:00
Tiny, tiny screen.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:11:01
Tiny screen, and it probably has a radio on it too, and it definitely has a handle. And then I loved the Perkins' potential baby names. For girls, Sarah or Randi with an "i," and for boys, John-Eric, "John-Eric," one name, or Randy with a "y." So, Randy!
Kaykay Brady: 1:11:21
Randy.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:11:22
Randi for girl, Randy for boy.
Kaykay Brady: 1:11:24
You can't go wrong!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:11:25
Randy. It's an all purpose name.
Kaykay Brady: 1:11:27
You can't go wrong.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:11:28
Those are my 80s moments. And I also noted, just for the record, if we are keeping track of little lesbian cues, Kristy did stay after school to watch a field hockey game.
Kaykay Brady: 1:11:39
Yes!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:11:40
That's pointed out, which made me very happy.
Kaykay Brady: 1:11:43
And you noticed she's watching, not playing. That rings true.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:11:46
She also tells the snobs that she gets, quote, "herbs and spices from Morbidda Destiny," which lends to your theory that Morbidda Destiny is just a lesbian who lost her partner who's growing weed in her garden.
Kaykay Brady: 1:12:01
Kristy starts selling weed in the new neighborhood. That's how you make friends! I know that from experience.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:12:09
So our next episode, we continue the whole theme of new relationships, because Book 12 is Claudia and the New Girl.
Kaykay Brady: 1:12:19
Ooh!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:12:20
So there's another new girl. There's lots of new girls who come into this book series.
Kaykay Brady: 1:12:25
Hey, the more the merrier.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:12:27
Absolutely. So we get to get into that in the next episode. And hopefully our democracy will be restored by then.
Kaykay Brady: 1:12:35
Hopefully we're all still here!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:12:37
Right. And our spirits will be lifted. So until then.
Kaykay Brady: 1:12:42
Just keep sittin'. [THEME SONG] Hear, hear. These are the Asshole Children of Assholes!
