Transcript - BSFC #25: Mary Anne and the Search for Tigger
Brooke Suchomel: 0:07
Welcome to the Baby-sitters Fight Club, where the first rule is, you don't talk about Fight Club. Instead, you talk about the battles fought and the lessons learned in the Baby-sitters Club series of books by Ann M. Martin. I'm Brooke Suchomel, an editor who's revisiting these books after 30 years.
Kaykay Brady: 0:24
And I'm Kaykay Brady. I'm a therapist, and I am a Baby-sitters Club book newbie.
Brooke Suchomel: 0:30
This week, we are taking you back to June 1989, for Mary Anne and the Search for Tigger. Here's what was going on in June 1989, as kids were reading this book for the first time. So the big event that month, which we had indicated would be coming up in previous episodes, was over in China, the Tiananmen Square Massacre of students and workers was the big thing in the news. And just as we always look back to see what sort of lessons we can learn about our present from the past, if you want to get a sense of what happens when there's immediate misinformation campaigns and censorship of factual information from your government...
Kaykay Brady: 1:11
There you go.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:12
You can look into the Tiananmen Square Massacre, and see the parallels between how people discuss protests here domestically in the US, and the critical race theory hysteria, et cetera. Kids growing up in China really don't hear about this. This is information that you and I, Kaykay, I'm sure you can recall when this happened, coverage of it at least in the news, even if we didn't really understand what was going on at the time. And kids today in China, it's like a secret thing that you have to learn about from other people.
Kaykay Brady: 1:46
It's amazing.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:47
There's a lot of articles that you can find about grown people finding out about this for the first time, finding out that their government had kept this a secret from them, and how that affects them later in life. So there's some good lessons for all of us to learn from that.
Kaykay Brady: 2:01
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 2:02
We're gonna move on to brighter things, but I did want to make sure that, you know, it's just so directly relevant to the world that we're living in today. Talk about gaslighting, right? We'll get into that with our discussion of this book. Gaslighting abounded in June 1989, let's put it that way.
Kaykay Brady: 2:20
Yeah, I'm so heated. I'm so heated and ready to talk about this, that it's bleeding into our background
Brooke Suchomel: 2:26
I know. It's gonna keep on going, because part. what was number one this month? Number one on the charts this month was "The Fucking Wind Beneath My Fucking Wings." So speaking of being heated...
Kaykay Brady: 2:35
So you're saying "The Wind Beneath My Wings" brings the same ire as the Tiananmen Square Massacre?
Brooke Suchomel: 2:41
I mean, it's not on the same level, but it taps into the same part of my psyche, where I'm just like, it's injustice all around. It's just injustice. It's like, why are things bad?
Kaykay Brady: 2:51
It is not just to have to listen to that song.
Brooke Suchomel: 2:53
Why are things bad? That's all I want to know.
Kaykay Brady: 2:56
Bette Midler is just like a tank coming at you, and you don't know, you're like, "Do I get out of the way? I'm gonna stand my ground again."
Brooke Suchomel: 3:05
Do I just let this run me over? Because I'm just done. I'm just done. Bette Midler, run me over with a tank. I'd rather be dead than listening to your song again. Here's what was shocking to me. Okay, "Wind Beneath My Wings." Do you remember, was that like pervasive for you? Was it everywhere?
Kaykay Brady: 3:25
Oh, yeah. It was fucking everywhere, as was Beaches. But I'll tell you one thing. I never saw Beaches. I've still never seen Beaches.
Brooke Suchomel: 3:31
I've never seen Beaches either.
Kaykay Brady: 3:32
Yay!
Brooke Suchomel: 3:33
I'm not the target audience.
Kaykay Brady: 3:37
That's so funny you say that, because I was just about to say that always struck me as like, this is for straight girls. I didn't even know that I was gay at the time, but I just knew that Beaches was not for me.
Brooke Suchomel: 3:46
Right. This is for women who have "Live, Laugh, Love" signs hanging up over their fireplace. It's not for me!
Kaykay Brady: 3:52
Or "Eat" in the kitchen.
Brooke Suchomel: 3:54
Right. Here was one thing in my research, when I saw I was like, Oh God, it's this month that I've been dreading. And it's not going to be on our playlist. Don't worry, I will not put a song on our playlist that I cannot endorse. But it was only number one for one week. I was like, Here we go, it's gonna be multiple months of "Wind Beneath My Wings" at the top of the charts. No, it just felt that way. Because growing up in Iowa, our only radio options were Top 40 and Adult Contemporary. Let's be real, our Top 40 stations really were Adult Contemporary. But then like, oldies and country music and classic rock, and I swear to God, all of those stations were playing "Wind Beneath My Wings." There was some payola thing going on. You could not escape it. It followed you from store to store at the mall. It just haunted your dreams. But it was bumped off the charts by New Kids on the Block with their first number one, which was "I'll Be Loving You Forever." So.
Kaykay Brady: 4:52
Yeah, I remember "Wind Beneath My Wings" being like that too in New York. It must have been in the top 100 for many weeks.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:58
Yeah, I think it ended up winning like every award.
Kaykay Brady: 5:02
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 5:02
This was when people would watch the Grammys, or they would watch the American Music Awards. You know?
Kaykay Brady: 5:08
It was an event.
Brooke Suchomel: 5:10
I remember fucking watching the People's Goddamn Choice Awards.
Kaykay Brady: 5:14
I don't even know what that is.
Brooke Suchomel: 5:15
It's jank. Cable Ace Awards. I watched the Cable Ace Awards, okay? I didn't even have, like, I had basic cable.
Kaykay Brady: 5:22
This is a poor indoor child in Iowa, is what we're getting to.
Brooke Suchomel: 5:26
This might explain a lot about me, yeah. I just realized, oh man, I need to talk to my therapist about why was I an eight year old watching the Cable Ace Awards?
Kaykay Brady: 5:43
This is in the aspirational bunnies space for me.
Brooke Suchomel: 5:47
I'm just surrounded by my brass bunnies, who are my friends, watching the Cable Ace Awards.
Kaykay Brady: 5:52
When what you really wanted was dogs.
Brooke Suchomel: 5:59
I know, all I wanted was dogs and cable, but instead I had to settle for fake brass bunnies and the Cable Ace Awards.
Kaykay Brady: 6:07
Oh shit. Now you have cable and dogs. Everything your heart ever wanted.
Brooke Suchomel: 6:13
I do, I do. I never listen to "Wind Beneath My Wings." I just refuse, and I don't have to and no one can tell me otherwise. It's great.
Kaykay Brady: 6:20
This will be a benefit of, you know, once they put chips in our brains...
Brooke Suchomel: 6:25
Have you not been vaccinated? It's a joke. There's no...
Kaykay Brady: 6:32
Hey y'all, it's a joke. There's no chip in your brain.
Brooke Suchomel: 6:34
Please. Reminder, you have not tuned into Joe Rogan. Okay, continue.
Kaykay Brady: 6:37
Okay, so when they put chips in our brains, we'll probably be able to block things. Like, you could set some sort of setting in your brain. It'll be like, immediate block, "Wind Beneath My Wings." It'll be like, you know, blocking a website.
Brooke Suchomel: 6:54
Oh my god, I can block "Wind Beneath My Wings," I can block Joe Rogan, I can block the phrase "cancel culture." I can block all of this? I'm ready. Where's my chip? Let's fucking go. Then also, in the music world, you know, we are rapidly approaching the end of the 80s.
Kaykay Brady: 7:14
I know, the 90s is really nipping on our heels.
Brooke Suchomel: 7:16
Yeah, on the calendar, if not in our hearts, and this was an indicator to me that this is really about to happen. Nirvana's debut album Bleach was released on Sub Pop in June 1989.
Kaykay Brady: 7:29
Oh, yeah!
Brooke Suchomel: 7:30
So "Wind Beneath My Wings" was number one, while Bleach was released. This is where we are. This is the intersection that we're at in culture. So pretty soon it's going to be Most 90s Moments instead of Most 80s Moments, and the release of Bleach indicates that.
Kaykay Brady: 7:45
I can't believe it. I feel a little sad.
Brooke Suchomel: 7:47
Oh, but the 90s get fun. The 90s are fucked, but they also get fun.
Kaykay Brady: 7:52
They do, but I don't know, I'm just sad to leave the 80s.
Brooke Suchomel: 7:55
Well, we'll never leave the 80s. The 80s remains in our hearts at all times.
Kaykay Brady: 7:59
Right, in my heart.
Brooke Suchomel: 7:59
Yeah, we're an 80s kid. It's impossible. We're trapped there. We are stuck in the 80s forever.
Kaykay Brady: 8:05
Right. It's just always gonna be in my heart. I don't need to be reminiscing about it. It's always with me.
Brooke Suchomel: 8:11
It's always with you. At the movies, the number one movies that month, we had a bunch of sequels. So Star Trek V, The Final Frontier was number one. Never seen, haven't seen a single Star Trek.
Kaykay Brady: 8:23
I may have seen it. The only Star Trek I remember is some Star Trek where they release these weird leeches that crawl into your ears.
Brooke Suchomel: 8:31
Cool.
Kaykay Brady: 8:32
"Cool."
Brooke Suchomel: 8:32
Also not for me. We're just describing a whole bunch of things that are not for Brooke.
Kaykay Brady: 8:37
It's all I remember. That's all I remember and I was like, I'm never watching a Star Trek again.
Brooke Suchomel: 8:42
Right, you're like, "One and done on the Star Trek front."
Kaykay Brady: 8:44
Correct.
Brooke Suchomel: 8:46
And then Ghostbusters II. I didn't see it until I was probably in my 20s. My husband loves this movie, so he'll watch it periodically, but this is the one that had, Bobby Brown did the theme song. Bobby Brown was really big, like "Every Little Step" was big this month, he was out with a theme for Ghostbusters II...
Kaykay Brady: 9:05
He was like, "Don't worry, kill ghosts." Oh wait, no, that's the wrong person.
Brooke Suchomel: 9:09
"Don't worry, kill ghosts?" Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 9:13
"Here's a little song I wrote..."
Brooke Suchomel: 9:15
"You might want to sing it while you kill a ghost. Don't worry..."
Kaykay Brady: 9:22
Wait, you said Bobby Brown?
Brooke Suchomel: 9:24
Bobby Brown, who is not Bobby McFerrin.
Kaykay Brady: 9:30
Funny error, but...Bobby Brown!
Brooke Suchomel: 9:34
Bobby Brown, that guy that sang "Don't Worry, Be Happy"? No, Bobby Brown.
Kaykay Brady: 9:40
Bobby McFerrin's nephew?
Brooke Suchomel: 9:42
Right, right. Yeah, their family name is Bobby. No, "On Our Own" was the name.
Kaykay Brady: 9:48
Is the song "My Prerogative" from the ghost perspective? "Everybody's talking all this stuff about me. Why can't you just let me haunt?"
Brooke Suchomel: 9:58
"Tell me whyyyyy."
Kaykay Brady: 10:00
"I don't need permission, slime this motherfucka." I dunno, it's nonsense.
Brooke Suchomel: 10:06
That's cute!
Kaykay Brady: 10:07
Aw, thanks!
Brooke Suchomel: 10:07
I mean, they're redoing Ghostbusters, right? Like, they're constantly redoing Ghostbusters. So if they want to redo Ghostbusters II, they
Kaykay Brady: 10:11
It's like every two years! can take that. And then, Batman. Starring?
Brooke Suchomel: 10:18
Starring Michael Keaton.
Kaykay Brady: 10:19
There's also been 75 of them.
Brooke Suchomel: 10:20
I know, but this was the first one...
Kaykay Brady: 10:22
Oh, yeah! I remember this one.
Brooke Suchomel: 10:22
This was the Tim Burton Batman with Michael Keaton.
Kaykay Brady: 10:25
Tim Burton! Really?
Brooke Suchomel: 10:27
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 10:29
Wow. Was it good?
Brooke Suchomel: 10:31
Here's me admitting I haven't ever seen Batman either.
Kaykay Brady: 10:34
Not for you.
Brooke Suchomel: 10:35
What I did see, so you would see the promotional stuff, you would see the music videos from it. So when I think of Batman, I think of the Prince soundtrack to Batman, including "Batdance," which is dope.
Kaykay Brady: 10:47
Alright, sweet. I have some vague memories of this.
Brooke Suchomel: 10:50
"Batdance" is dope, because the song is so weird. It's like, I've never heard a song like this before. The song is so bizarre to me, and I fucking love it, because it's not "Wind Beneath My Wings." It's the anti-"Wind Beneath My Wings," is "Batdance."
Kaykay Brady: 11:05
Aw, sweet!
Brooke Suchomel: 11:06
Get into "Batdance."
Kaykay Brady: 11:07
I'm gonna have to look it up. I'm sure I saw it, but I just can't remember. But Tim Burton? Prince? Michael Keaton? This is a good recipe.
Brooke Suchomel: 11:16
And then, other movies that were released that month that definitely formed impressions in the cultural psyche. One, Honey, I Shrunk the Kids.
Kaykay Brady: 11:23
That was huge.
Brooke Suchomel: 11:24
Our school had like, basically, if you hadn't been suspended from school, you could go watch-
Kaykay Brady: 11:31
That's a high bar, my friend. "You haven't committed a felony in the last week."
Brooke Suchomel: 11:37
Yes, if you aren't currently in jail, you can go to the school cafeteria at two o'clock on a Friday, and they projected Honey, I Shrunk the Kids on the wall of the cafeteria and they had popcorn for us. And I'm telling you, that's like my peak elementary school experience.
Kaykay Brady: 11:57
That does sound pretty awesome. It just reminds me, though, what simpler times it was, that that little shred of entertainment was just magical to you.
Brooke Suchomel: 12:08
Yeah, we were hungry for entertainment.
Kaykay Brady: 12:10
We were starving!
Brooke Suchomel: 12:10
And so every little scrap we got? Relished it. And then Do the Right Thing also came out this month.
Kaykay Brady: 12:17
Ah, one of my favorites of all time.
Brooke Suchomel: 12:19
Yeah, does it really speak to you as a New Yorker?
Kaykay Brady: 12:21
Yeah. And also, I haven't watched it in a bit, but it was one of the first movies I saw that had a very "yes, and" spirit about a very complicated topic. In other words, there's no straight villains or straight heroes. It's a lot of dynamics crashing, and a lot of very thoughtful representation of those dynamics crashing, which, yes, seems to me very New York, and also just like great filmmaking. And I think it was one of the first movies that I really saw doing that well.
Brooke Suchomel: 12:59
Yeah, complexity and nuance in entertainment or art that you consume is really...it's sad that it feels rare.
Kaykay Brady: 13:08
Yeah, it is sad. But it was very rare when it came out, too.
Brooke Suchomel: 13:10
Exactly.
Kaykay Brady: 13:11
I think it happens a little more now. But I mean, it was very rare. It's hard for me to even imagine another movie in that time period that did that really well. It's funny because we talk about the series a lot like that. The Netflix show, especially, the way that there's a very "yes, and" spirit and a lot of complicated nuance versus heroes and villains.
Brooke Suchomel: 13:32
Right, and everybody is the hero in their own story. And everybody is coming into things with their own experience and things that other people can't possibly see, because they're not in your head and they're not in your world. So what happens when people from various worlds and experiences, who all see themselves as the hero, are all brought together in a tense situation?
Kaykay Brady: 13:55
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 13:56
So the fact that that came out right after the Tiananmen Square Massacre, you know, just shows you that there's a lot of tension in the air.
Kaykay Brady: 14:04
Definitely. And I was also stunned to learn recently that Radio Raheem, one of his things is, you know, he has "love" and "hate" on his knuckles, and he has this monologue about how they're like, fighting. That's from a very classic movie called Night of the Hunter, where the preacher character has that on his fingers and does a similar monologue. So anyway, a nice call back to extremely classic cinema on Spike Lee's part.
Brooke Suchomel: 14:28
Well, and how everything is connected, we're always responding. So art that we're encountering today is responding to art from the past.
Kaykay Brady: 14:37
Yeah, great way to put it.
Brooke Suchomel: 14:38
Nothing lives in a vacuum. So again, not to keep on harping on this, but that's why we always talk about placing this work of art that we're discussing, which is the Baby-sitters Club, in the context of the time that it's in. So that you can see what it's responding to. So that you can see everything that's going on, because people who create art are people. Right? They're living in a world, so they're responding to that world, and it's important for us to know what that is in order to properly appreciate the messages. And then on TV, that's a quick transition, but on TV...
Kaykay Brady: 15:12
Do it.
Brooke Suchomel: 15:12
Premiering was Tales from the Crypt, which I see as a Young Kaykay thing. Am I correct?
Kaykay Brady: 15:19
100%. I love Tales from the Crypt. I still remember episodes. And the Cryptkeeper? Classic puppetry.
Brooke Suchomel: 15:28
Speaking of scary things, things that terrify me, let's talk about the 25th Baby-sitters Club book, Mary Anne and the Search for Tigger, that was released that month. This is gonna be a fun one, y'all. Buckle in. Buckle in.
Kaykay Brady: 15:47
If you can't handle rage monologues, you might wanna skip this episode.
Brooke Suchomel: 15:49
No, you definitely want to stay. We'll convince you that you can handle rage monologues. We'll change your mind, because it's about to get real.
Kaykay Brady: 15:55
Alright, if you get too activated, you just do breathing out the left and right side of your nostril.
Brooke Suchomel: 16:00
We'll coach you through how to calm down, because we're going to do it to ourselves.
Kaykay Brady: 16:05
We're going to start this episode with a grounding exercise to prepare you for the rage to come. So just feel your butt in your chair. Feel your feet on the ground.
Brooke Suchomel: 16:15
Doing that right now, thank you.
Kaykay Brady: 16:16
You can do this.
Brooke Suchomel: 16:17
Okay.
Kaykay Brady: 16:17
And just put a hand on your chest. Say to yourself, "I'm safe."
Brooke Suchomel: 16:21
I'm safe.
Kaykay Brady: 16:22
"I'm loved."
Brooke Suchomel: 16:22
I'm loved. I'm not Mary Anne trapped in a gaslighting relationship with a toxic masculine piece of shit.
Kaykay Brady: 16:24
What the fuck is happening here?!
Brooke Suchomel: 16:31
Okay, here we go. So!
Kaykay Brady: 16:32
What is happening here?!
Brooke Suchomel: 16:34
It's time for some back cover copy, and I quote, "Mary Anne just loves her little kitten, Tigger. So when he disappears one afternoon, Mary Anne is a little concerned. The next morning Tigger is still missing...and Mary Anne is frantic. It's time for an emergency meeting of the Baby-sitters Club. The girls pulled together a reward for the return of Tigger, and they search everywhere for him. But there's still no sign of him...until Mary Anne receives a frightening letter in the mail. Someone has taken Tigger, and Mary Anne must pay a hundred dollars to get him back. Is this some mean practical joke...or has Tigger really been cat-napped?" End quote. So Kaykay, first of all, I want to apologize for setting false expectations with you. Because in our last episode, I said this was going to be a Nancy Drew book, and instead we got a V.C. Andrews book.
Kaykay Brady: 17:26
I mean, there's a tiny bit of Nancy Drew.
Brooke Suchomel: 17:28
Yeah, but this is really like a psychosexual melodrama.
Kaykay Brady: 17:33
Correct.
Brooke Suchomel: 17:36
This is fucked. So let's just set the basis for people who are listening that are like, "Okay, well why are you so angry about that based on that description?" Kaykay, can you just give a really quick plot level overview of what we actually get in this fucking book?
Kaykay Brady: 17:54
The basic plotline is that Mary Anne's cat goes missing. They pull together a reward and put up flyers all over the neighborhood, and some random asshole kid decides to pretend to have the cat and blackmail them for $100. And that's the sort of Nancy Drew, Scooby Doo part. They go to the park and they, with Logan's help, and we'll get into Logan in a minute, with Logan's help and all the babysitters' help, they sort of catch the kid and read him the riot act.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:27
It's Encyclopedia Brown-esque. It's a Bugs Meany move.
Kaykay Brady: 18:30
Yeah, exactly. Then, at the same time, Logan's being a total douche. He's being very standoffish and strange with Mary Anne, and we come to find out that Logan's little sister has taken Tigger, Mary Anne's cat, and it's been living in a fucking box for how long?
Brooke Suchomel: 18:51
Under her bed.
Kaykay Brady: 18:52
Under her bed! That seems fine!
Brooke Suchomel: 18:54
A box under her bed.
Kaykay Brady: 18:56
We know that Ann M. had cats. How realistic is this? Anyway, not realistic, but the cat's living in a box under her bed. When Mary Anne finds out, she basically assumes that Logan was part of this because of his standoffish behavior. And then Logan, douche of the century, doesn't seek to reassure her or understand what's happening. He just decides to ignore her, which felt so shitty. And then she pursues him! To try to make up with him because of her horrible misstep of believing that he did something wrong, given that his behavior matched that. Anyway, so then it ends on this weird note where it's basically like, "Yay, I have Tigger back and I have Logan." Ugh!
Brooke Suchomel: 19:44
Girl. Keep the cat, get rid of the boyfriend. I mean, my God. It's not just that he's standoffish. He's emotionally fucking abusive.
Kaykay Brady: 19:56
Yeah. Manipulative, too.
Brooke Suchomel: 19:58
Throughout, so manipulative. And I'm sorry, he stole that fucking cat.
Kaykay Brady: 20:28
That's what I thought. I thought, there's no
Brooke Suchomel: 20:52
There's no way. Like, reading it throughout? So we're supposed to believe at the end that he had nothing to do with it, that his little sister just happened to conveniently stumble upon this cat, right after Logan left Mary Anne's house, where he was pissed off that she was giving the cat attention. She was paying too much attention to the cat. He's pissed at her. He's like, "Ugh, again? You're saying the cat is cute again?" He's just sullen and pissy. And then his explanation at the end for being sullen and pissy is that he's afraid he's gonna get kicked off the baseball team because he literally dropped the ball. He literally dropped a ball, and so he's gonna get kicked off of the baseball team. Again, goes to the whole, check every fucking toxic masculinity box that you can, he's being held to unreasonable standards, because his coach expects more of him than he expects from anybody else, you know, because he's just that good. So he's likely to get kicked off of the team, because he's so good that the coach just expects him to be perfect, and he wasn't perfect one time. Like, he dropped a ball in practice, who fucking cares? That happens, Jesus. And then the kicker is that, and then his teammates laughed at him. So that's what it is. He feels humiliated. Other men were mocking him, or laughing at him, whatever, and so that's why he's a total fucking asshole to his girlfriend the whole time. Doesn't want to help her look. She has to convince him, basically guilt him into it the whole time. She's literally crying, thinking, "What if Tigger's dead?" And she looks over at him and he's just staring at the wall. He took that cat. He took that cat!
Kaykay Brady: 21:19
Nothing adds up to me. way he didn't steal the cat.
Brooke Suchomel: 21:54
Because he took the cat!
Kaykay Brady: 21:56
I agree with you. There's just something so emotionally disjointed about the whole experience of reading this book, because on one hand, this book really touched me, because there's all this beautiful pulling together of the Baby-sitters Club. When Mary Anne realizes Tigger is missing, all of her friends take it seriously.
Brooke Suchomel: 22:25
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 22:26
Kristy takes it seriously, Claudia, you know, they all just pull together like, "Damn, Tigger is missing!"
Brooke Suchomel: 22:31
All of the female friends.
Kaykay Brady: 22:33
Correct. And even if they're not crazy about cats, they know what this means to their friend. So actually really touching and beautiful, and I got a little verklempt at points at the loveliness of that story that was going on.
Brooke Suchomel: 22:48
They literally give her every dollar that they have, all of the Baby-sitters Club.
Kaykay Brady: 22:51
Every dollar that they have. Every cent that they have.
Brooke Suchomel: 22:53
And Dawn apologizes, she's like, "I'm sorry, I only have $2. I just went and bought earrings." She had to go buy earrings. Everybody's buying earrings at all times in the Baby-sitters Club. It's an earrings club, as well as a child labor organization.
Kaykay Brady: 23:06
I mean, the 80s was an earrings club.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:08
Right. And then they dip into the treasury too, to make sure that they get an even number. So all of the girls chip in. Does Mary Anne's dad? Abso-fucking-lutely not. Her dad, who, may I remind you, is a lawyer, has money...
Kaykay Brady: 23:26
Who makes bank, I'm sure. Yeah, he's a lawyer in Connecticut.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:29
Doesn't fucking offer to help to cover this thing. He's like, "Oh, that's so nice that these girls gave literally their last dime to try to help find my family cat." Anyway, continue.
Kaykay Brady: 23:44
Yeah. And then poor Mary Anne has such a low bar of male behavior that she's like, "Oh my God, my dad is looking for the cat with me. I'm so touched!"
Brooke Suchomel: 23:54
She was over the moon that he said he'd be willing to put up a flyer on a bulletin board at the grocery store. "Such generosity! My dad would never do that!"
Kaykay Brady: 24:03
I know. It's like, Mary Anne, dude, you could do better. You could do better!
Brooke Suchomel: 24:06
Dump your fucking dad!
Kaykay Brady: 24:09
Dump all the men in your life. Start over!
Brooke Suchomel: 24:11
Except for Tigger. Start fresh, girl. You're 13, time to seize the day! Own your life!
Kaykay Brady: 24:18
There's a bus that goes right to Manhattan. So does Metro North. Just get your ass on the Metro North, go live in the West Village. It's very cheap at this point in history.
Brooke Suchomel: 24:28
Right. "Stacey, you said your parents are fighting all the time. It'll be fine if I can sleep on your couch, right? Forever? Let's do this."
Kaykay Brady: 24:36
Alright, so it's like this beautiful story is unfolding with the female friendships and the female characters that I found really touching. And by the way, if you have a missing animal, you definitely want a lesbian in a visor. That's the first person you're going to go to.
Brooke Suchomel: 24:50
Just in general, you definitely want a lesbian in a visor. Have a lesbian with a visor in your life for all purposes, but in a crisis, especially.
Kaykay Brady: 25:00
You want one. Yeah, you want one. So there's that story unfolding and it just makes the Logan plot all the more horrible. Because on one hand, you have this incredible emotional attunement and holding of each other in the gentlest, most supportive way. And then on the other hand, you have this fucking janky emotional mismatch manipulation, some weird sinister undertones that is there, but the author is not addressing. It's almost like the book is gaslighting you because it's not being addressed. It's so fucked up, and the sweetness on this side is really making you pick up how discordant this is, and it's not talked about.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:49
I have a theory.
Kaykay Brady: 25:51
Do it.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:52
I think it's intentional.
Kaykay Brady: 25:53
What?! Go. I want to hear.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:58
Okay. So, if you haven't read the book, it's hard to fathom the degree of cognitive dissonance that you have reading it.
Kaykay Brady: 26:06
Yeah, definitely.
Brooke Suchomel: 26:07
You and I describing this can't properly convey the degree of fucked up-edness that you get, because there's literally nothing in this book with Logan, he has zero redeeming qualities in this book. Like, zero.
Kaykay Brady: 26:23
Nothing.
Brooke Suchomel: 26:24
There are things put in there, that don't need to be in there to advance the plot, that just are there to make you feel and see that Logan fucking sucks. And he's really bad for Mary Anne. You know, like the whole point of Mary Anne narrating how she's like, "I can't find my kitten who I love so much. What if he's dead?" She's musing on this, and she looks over to her boyfriend who is sitting right next to her for support, and he is just staring dead at the wall and won't make eye contact with her. You don't have to put that in there, unless you want the reader to really feel like, "This guy fucking sucks, dude." You know? Just the the word choices, what is included. Like, when Logan is introduced, she literally says, "He's just incredible. He's incredible at everything. He's incredible, incredible, incredible, incredible." So she says he's incredible, and then you see him in this book. He is nothing of the sort. The only thing that's incredible about him is, the audacity that he possesses is incredible. His coldness to his girlfriend is incredible. It's incredible how cold he can be.
Kaykay Brady: 27:35
Yeah, he's an incredible douche.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:36
He's an incredible douche. And she does the whole thing again, where she's like, "I don't know why he likes me." She brings that up again, too, so you see she's insecure. So the introduction of Logan before you even see him appear in this book is, "My boyfriend is amazing. I have no idea what he sees in me." That's Mary Anne's mindset. And then you see throughout, every male in this book, with the exception of Tigger, and with the exception of Jamie Newton, who I'm convinced is just this feral child of Stoneybrook. I don't know if he actually has a home, because he's just always wandering, popping up, showing up at people's homes...
Kaykay Brady: 28:16
Is this like The Sixth Sense? Is this Ghostbusters II?
Brooke Suchomel: 28:18
Right, Jamie Newton doesn't actually exist. "I see Jamie Newtons. I see 4 year olds." Jamie Newton is this sweet adorable child who died in a flood in 1906 or something, and he still appears to play with the neighborhood kids.
Kaykay Brady: 28:35
He's a colonial ghost. Damn.
Brooke Suchomel: 28:37
That's my theory. So besides those two male figures, every other male that shows up in this book, fucking sucks.
Kaykay Brady: 28:48
Garbage. Garbage.
Brooke Suchomel: 28:49
It's a 10 year old boy who sees them putting up reward flyers and then immediately is like, "Here's my chance to grift."
Kaykay Brady: 28:56
Oh, that motherfucker. And then it's like, Logan takes care of that kid, and all of a sudden we're supposed to feel grateful for Logan being a male figure that is going to frighten that child.
Brooke Suchomel: 29:08
He takes care of the kid by being like, "Hey kid, I know we were in on this together to get the $100, but it didn't work out. You gotta get the fuck out of here." Yeah, totally in on it. And then Mary Anne's dad, you see her job is to make him dinner. His first appearance, he's like, "It looks like you walked out of the kitchen in the middle of making dinner. What are you doing?" It's basically like, "Why is dinner not ready when I come home?" It's because she can't find her cat!
Kaykay Brady: 29:35
Yeah, she's ready for wrath to fall on her head. She's so kowtowed to all the men.
Brooke Suchomel: 29:41
It's because her job is to care for men. Her job is to serve men. When she decides at the end, when she thinks, rightfully so, ding ding ding Mary Anne, you have caught on to it that Logan fucking took the cat. You know, she's like, "Well, I want to talk with him about it," and so she has him come over, and then she makes sure to go and get his favorite soda and get it properly chilled in the fridge.
Kaykay Brady: 30:04
Soda. Give him cookies! Motherfucker!
Brooke Suchomel: 30:08
A tray of cookies that she arranges and artfully displays and serves him. And does he thank her? Abso-fucking-lutely not.
Kaykay Brady: 30:15
Flames. Flames! On the side of my face. Breathless, heaving! That's from Clue.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:20
It's like, dude, you think he stole your cat. You think that he put you through all of this torture. You're right, even though I'm sure the editors or something were like, "We can't have this ending." I think that Ann M. wanted this to be a breakup book.
Kaykay Brady: 30:35
I thought that's where it was going!
Brooke Suchomel: 30:38
And she was shot down. Because there is nothing, like, Ann M. fucking hates Logan in this book. The writer hates him.
Kaykay Brady: 30:47
But it's so interesting, because she spent so much time justifying his behavior through Mary Anne, who is the character that she most associates herself with.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:58
But she doesn't justify it.
Kaykay Brady: 31:00
Or like, downplaying it.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:03
She just chooses to overlook it, because she's so fucking insecure. Because her entire life has been being in service to others, particularly being in service to men.
Kaykay Brady: 31:13
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:14
That's her life. That's the role that she plays. And it's funny too, because I was thinking about it. There was a moment that really kind of solidified this for me. Not just the Mary Anne making dinner for her dad, not just Mary Anne putting on this elaborate spread for her shitty fucking, at bare minimum, emotionally neglectful boyfriend, to confront him.
Kaykay Brady: 31:35
Who she, by the way, calls her friend. She calls him her friend all of a sudden. I was like, what?
Brooke Suchomel: 31:41
Like, girl, he ain't your friend. What has he done that makes him a friend? Like, put him in a different body, make him a female. Are you friends? You're not friends. So you're not friends! Then you also see, just as a sidebar, that she spends her babysitting money on cat toys. So she's caring for others to make money that she can use to care for others. It's just this cycle. But it's when you learn that Jessi's eight year old sister has been teaching her baby brother to walk. And it's like, "Oh, look what I did!" The girls in this book get absolutely no time to form a sense of self without having it tied to caretaking roles.
Kaykay Brady: 32:23
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 32:23
Every girl in this book is a caretaker, and has been their entire life. They can't imagine themselves playing a different role. The roles that they're taught to play is self in service to others. And then you see the roles that the boys are doing. The boys are focused on fighting, on competition.
Kaykay Brady: 32:43
Yeah, on pursuits and hobbies.
Brooke Suchomel: 32:45
Right. But then Logan's being a dick to her. His excuse for being a dick to her is that his pride was hurt because he did something that he felt embarrassed about in ball practice. So again, that's all tied to his role as a competitor.
Kaykay Brady: 33:00
I love when you call it "ball practice."
Brooke Suchomel: 33:03
Because I was like, was it baseball? Was it football? "Ball practice!"
Kaykay Brady: 33:07
Like, who gives a fuck, it's meaningless to me. "Ball practice." They're chasing and throwing some form of ball.
Brooke Suchomel: 33:14
Is there a ball there? Are they doing something with a ball? It's ball practice. That's what sports is. Just balls. That's sports. "Oh, he's watching balls. He's gonna go play balls."
Kaykay Brady: 33:25
I love you, my friend.
Brooke Suchomel: 33:29
So that is a role of the self being in opposition to others. That's the role that the boys are taught to play. You either have to excel independently or excel in partnership with others to conquer others in some way, to be better than others.
Kaykay Brady: 33:46
This is brought to a very intense extreme with the kid that tries to shake them down. Because he's trying to shake them down for money, and he's like, "Oh, I just wanted to make a quick buck."
Brooke Suchomel: 33:59
"I'm 10. I wanted to make a quick 100 bucks by torturing somebody, tormenting them."
Kaykay Brady: 34:05
I just think both of these boys are inching towards conduct disorder, which then becomes antisocial personality disorder.
Brooke Suchomel: 34:12
Right. Stay far away.
Kaykay Brady: 34:13
Disregard for the feelings of others, harming animals, theft. That's what it really is, it's criminal!
Brooke Suchomel: 34:23
Mm hmm.
Kaykay Brady: 34:24
And it's just like, "Shrug. Boys!"
Brooke Suchomel: 34:27
"Boys. What can you do? That's just what boys do, they shake you down and treat you like shit. Boys."
Kaykay Brady: 34:31
And just the complete lack of emotion or empathy from Logan is like, something is wrong with him. It's so extreme. And I just am so curious, like, what is Ann M. doing?
Brooke Suchomel: 34:46
So there's a few different things coming into play here. One, Ann M. wrote the first, like, 30 books, and then they get passed off to ghostwriters. We're on book 25.
Kaykay Brady: 34:55
She's like, "Suck on this, assholes!" She set a little landmine for them.
Brooke Suchomel: 35:07
But we also know, and again, this is just pure speculation. This is why I'm saying it's a theory, but it's the thing that makes it make sense to me.
Kaykay Brady: 35:17
There's no wrong answer in brainstorming.
Brooke Suchomel: 35:19
Yeah. But I want to be clear that I'm not saying that this is definitely what Ann M. is doing, because I don't want to speak for her own motivation, only she can say that. But what makes sense to me is that the Logan relationship is something that was suggested to her by editors. Remember that she said she most closely identifies with Mary Anne, and we also know that Ann M. is queer.
Kaykay Brady: 35:47
Mm hmm.
Brooke Suchomel: 35:48
My theory is that Mary Anne was chosen to be the "lucky girl with a boyfriend," because she was sort of the avatar for the average reader of these books. If you look at the girls, their personalities, and if you are looking at this from a book marketing perspective, until Jessi and Mallory come in later, because Jessi and Mallory are the true avatars of the readership, but those were later characters introduced, you would say that Mary Anne is the persona that would be reading these books. She is the quieter one, she really likes to read. Most kids didn't identify with Claudia and Stacey, because they were cool.
Kaykay Brady: 36:31
They were super cool.
Brooke Suchomel: 36:32
Even if you're cool, when you're a kid, when you're 13 and you're a girl, especially at this time in America, you don't think you're cool.
Kaykay Brady: 36:41
Yeah, you would be a very unique girl to think you were cool.
Brooke Suchomel: 36:43
Seriously.
Kaykay Brady: 36:45
Although I did think I was cool.
Brooke Suchomel: 36:47
Well, yeah, but you were fucking right. But also, I can't speak for you, but I think it's different when you are a cisgender heterosexual girl. Because this is the time when it's like, Okay, your role is going to be as a wife and mother. That is the sort of persona that you see reflected for your future, in the culture around you. And of the kids that we see in this book, Mary Anne is the one that we see on that pipeline, as the one that would be like, Okay, well, this is what I'm supposed to do. The kind of girls that were readers, and were reading books like this, there's a wide spectrum, but I think everyone who was a girl who unabashedly loved to read, you're always kind of told you're a little nerdy or something. That's kind of how reading was cast in the 80s. It wasn't the cool thing to do, particularly as you approach your teen years, and so you're feeling like a bit of an outcast. And you're probably feeling like you really you wish that you were cool. You wish you fit in. You wish you had a boyfriend, because that's what society tells you you should want. So you knew, well, did you know that you didn't want a boyfriend?
Kaykay Brady: 38:05
Yes. I didn't know what I wanted, but I knew what I didn't want. And I didn't want a boyfriend. I couldn't make it add up. I tried, but I couldn't make it add up.
Brooke Suchomel: 38:16
Which sounds analogous to Kristy, right?
Kaykay Brady: 38:18
Yes.
Brooke Suchomel: 38:19
Kristy says in these books, she doesn't like boys. Like, she's just not into boys. She doesn't say she's into girls, but she's like, "I'm not into boys." Because society is telling you, "This is who you should be." And when you're like, "That's not who I am. I don't know exactly who I am, but I know I'm not that."
Kaykay Brady: 38:39
Yeah, there was no models back then. There was no modeling of, you know, there's queerness. It was only villainous, in movies, and it was usually men. So you didn't even really knew that it existed.
Brooke Suchomel: 38:53
Or like a subject of mockery, right?
Kaykay Brady: 38:56
Yeah. And so you could only feel what you weren't. Because that was the model that you were shown was this, and you're like, "That's not right." But you didn't have an alternate model to be like, "Oh yeah, that's feeling very right to me."
Brooke Suchomel: 39:09
Right. As we're talking about this, I'm just thinking about where the different experiences and reactions would come in, because I also knew that I didn't want to be like, wife and mother per se. This sort of stereotypical role that you saw, again, being in service to others as in like, "I don't have my own interests beyond supporting the interests of others." I knew that that's what I didn't want. But I also knew that I thought boys were cute.
Kaykay Brady: 39:38
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:39
There wasn't a whole lot of examples to like, Here's how to be a heterosexual cisgender woman who has her own interests, but isn't like a quote unquote, "bitch," you know? Cuz that's what you got.
Kaykay Brady: 39:56
Working Girl. Sigourney Weaver. We talked about this, yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:00
Those were your options. And so you're like, Okay, well then, fuck, who am I?
Kaykay Brady: 40:05
That's a real fucking conundrum you're outlining there. It's a real conundrum. That is a real box you're in.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:12
Because you see something that you can sort of connect with in culture, but not fully, and you don't really understand what's off.
Kaykay Brady: 40:24
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:24
Again, you're taught that your role is in relationship to male figures. And so if you're like, I can see having a male figure in my life, but that sort of dynamic is not for me, it's very disorienting.
Kaykay Brady: 40:40
Also, we've talked about this before, the way that when you're queer, it's like, you're kicked out of the culture. And so you're looking in and you have a much more natural critical eye. And that critical eye will serve you for your entire life, because you'll always have that critical spirit that is going to help in all circumstances. But I think, you know, being a cisgendered, heterosexual straight woman, you were in that.
Brooke Suchomel: 41:04
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 41:05
You've really been embraced by that in some ways, and so it must be very difficult to be able to track, "What is wrong here? What doesn't feel right here? Why am I feeling this way?"
Brooke Suchomel: 41:19
Yeah, I think the difference is like, with queerness, you're told, "You don't belong in this culture." And so you're like, "Fine, I'm just gonna go create my own culture."
Kaykay Brady: 41:27
"Peace out, fuck off. " Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 41:28
When you are a non, I don't wanna say non You are told by society, "Well, no, this is your gender conforming, non gender role conforming straight person? culture." And if you're like, But it's not, actually. Like, the fact that I'm cisgender and the fact that I'm heterosexual doesn't mean that your culture is for me, because everything else about that culture ain't working for me. So now where do I go? You know? I think, just sort of speaking personally, that's one of the reasons why I always feel such a connection to queer people, because, but for my sexuality, I actually really strongly identify with that feeling of otherness. That feeling of not belonging. That feeling of something being wrong with me, but not knowing what that is. You know, there's just something about heteronormative culture, particularly as it manifested in America in our formative years, that was really fucked up and like, deeply traumatizing, I think, for a lot of people.
Kaykay Brady: 42:31
Well, I think you're totally right. I really like your read on "this book is a critique of heteronormative culture." I hope you're right. Your read is so positive, so hopeful. My read was more of a base level "this is just the fucked up culture on display." And like, the author doesn't even know it or see it, which, I hope I'm fucking wrong.
Brooke Suchomel: 43:00
I feel like she totally sees it. Here are a few examples. So this is like the redemptive...
Kaykay Brady: 43:08
I want to believe!
Brooke Suchomel: 43:10
My read is that this is an incredibly subversive book. So my theory is that, again, Ann M. had to make Mary Anne the possessor of the boyfriend, or the possessed by a boyfriend, character, because the marketing around Baby-sitters Club was, again, you're in a heteronormative culture. Our audience, this is their ideal dream, is to have a boyfriend that looks like he's stepped off the cover of a teen magazine, and he's like a sports star and blah, blah, blah.
Kaykay Brady: 43:39
With a lovely southern accent!
Brooke Suchomel: 43:41
Right. And he loves this shy, mousy girl and she doesn't know why, but he loves her anyway. That's the dream, right? And knowing that Ann M. most identified with Mary Anne, and that wasn't her dream, and that she had to write as if it was?
Kaykay Brady: 44:00
Fuck yeah, two middle fingers up!
Brooke Suchomel: 44:02
That would be irritating. And now she's like, "I'm on my fucking way out. Here's what I really think about this dude." So here's some evidence, I think, of why this is basically an FU to the whole concept of like, Mary Anne basically has to have a boyfriend, whether Ann M. thinks it's appropriate or not. So they're talking about their plan for their Scooby Doo fantasy, where they hide Monopoly money in an envelope and stick it under this rock that the little grifting 10 year old, who is probably either a Wall Street trader or in politics right now, is gonna come and get.
Kaykay Brady: 44:39
What a little shitbird! That is the definition of a shitbird, right there.
Brooke Suchomel: 44:43
Little Ted Cruz comes up and gets his bounty.
Kaykay Brady: 44:46
No doubt about it.
Brooke Suchomel: 44:47
Logan is the one who, he's like, "I'm going to be off on my own. So I'll go," she eventually guilts him into coming over. And again, another reason why I'm like, I absolutely know that he took this cat, he is shocked. He's absolutely shocked that a ransom note came in. Why is he shocked? Cuz he knows he has the fucking cat. Anyway. So he's going to be the one that's off on his own, ready to be the hero, come in and save the day, right? The rest of the babysitters, they're talking about how they're going to orchestrate this reconnaissance mission, and she says that she's going to hide with Kristy. She hides with Kristy, not with Logan.
Kaykay Brady: 45:24
A smart move. Pick the lesbian!
Brooke Suchomel: 45:26
Oh, always. Who do you want to be in a foxhole with? A lesbian.
Kaykay Brady: 45:30
A lesbian, yes.
Brooke Suchomel: 45:31
There is no other correct answer.
Kaykay Brady: 45:33
We're great in fights.
Brooke Suchomel: 45:34
This is a direct quote, page 106, she says, "I could have hidden with Logan, but he wanted to be alone, in case he had to rush out and do something daring. What he didn't realize was that if he did, I'd join him in a second, followed by all the other members of the Baby-sitters Club. We stick together." So it's very clear, Logan's being an asshole. He's being dumb, he wants to be the hero, he wants to save the day. But it's like, If you do that, I'm gonna be right there, and all my friends are gonna be there too. We're a team in this. And you see throughout, there are things that he says that you can't redeem. He's such an overt misogynistic asshole in a book series that's all about how girls are strong and smart and capable. He says things to her like, these are direct quotes, "Don't be overdramatic," when she's concerned about...
Kaykay Brady: 46:28
Oh, that was the worst!
Brooke Suchomel: 46:30
Oh, there are so many. Direct quote, "Mary Anne, will you calm down? You are being so sensitive. You're acting like such a girl."
Kaykay Brady: 46:38
Ah! I just, I'm gonna need another grounding exercise.
Brooke Suchomel: 46:42
And then at the end, you know, they're having their makeup session, which sucks. Dump his fucking ass, and don't give him any cookies and don't give him a soda. Give him a fucking flat RC Cola. That's what he gets, flat warm RC Cola. That's what Logan gets, not a nice cold bottle of what the fuck ever.
Kaykay Brady: 47:03
He gets a Diet Sprite, a flat Diet Sprite.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:08
I mean, she says to him, "'Logan, just answer one question for me, okay?' 'Okay.' 'Did you know that Kerry,'" his sister, "'was hiding Tigger in her room?' 'No.' 'Really?' 'That's two questions.'"
Kaykay Brady: 47:23
Ouch. They both know he did it!
Brooke Suchomel: 47:26
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 47:27
It's just denial.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:28
And, "'Mary Anne, I don't lie. To be honest, I'm really hurt that you would even think I'd do such a thing! Why would you think that, anyway?'"
Kaykay Brady: 47:36
Gaslighting.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:36
It's like, You fucking asshole! That's the end!
Kaykay Brady: 47:43
It's awful.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:44
This is how this ends! She apologizes! She apologizes to him, "I should never have accused you of knowing about Tigger." She asked him! She asked him a question, a very, very reasonable question. Her cat was found under his sister's bed. That's a reasonable question. He didn't want to help, he was a dick to her the entire time, and she's like, "I'm sorry. I should never have accused you of this. That's not fair."
Kaykay Brady: 48:11
That's awful.
Brooke Suchomel: 48:12
And then she says, "I can help your sister make friends." No. Leave. These people are not, again, this is why it's VC Andrews. Did you ever read VC Andrews books?
Kaykay Brady: 48:23
I did not.
Brooke Suchomel: 48:23
Are you familiar with the concept of VC Andrews books?
Kaykay Brady: 48:26
I feel like there's vampires. Is there vampires?
Brooke Suchomel: 48:28
No, it's worse. It's people. It's emotional vampires. It's just emotional vampires, up and down. So it's like Flowers in the Attic. It's like, Gothic psychological horror. And like, so much sexual abuse. Just so much sexual abuse, so much toxic masculinity. I mean, it is just brutal.
Kaykay Brady: 48:49
VC Andrews, is this a man or woman?
Brooke Suchomel: 48:51
VC Andrews was a woman. So the series that she was writing at the time, she passed away while she was writing it, and then it got taken over by ghostwriters and it continued to go on. I believe she died in like the late 80s, so around the time that this book was being written, and the book series that was out at that time was the Heaven series. Who is Heaven's first love and her boyfriend that she ends up marrying? Logan. Logan is the character's name. Heaven, her mom passed away in childbirth and she grew up serving her father, who sucked, and all of her siblings. So she's cared for everyone, and her first love and the boy that she marries from her small town is Logan. That came out in 1985. So Logan was this established character.
Kaykay Brady: 49:44
So this has gotta be a send up. This has gotta be a VC Andrews send up.
Brooke Suchomel: 49:47
It just feels like there's too much overlap, whether it's intentional or not. But basically, VC Andrews books are all about this noble girl who just sees herself in service to other people, who was treated like shit her entire life, and sacrifices herself and ultimately dies. That's VC Andrews books.
Kaykay Brady: 50:10
And not like in a critiquing way.
Brooke Suchomel: 50:12
No, like totally fucked up. Like, soap opera. Like, "Oh, these people are bad, but I love them." Like, the girl always marries her rapist. Always.
Kaykay Brady: 50:21
No! I just have to say that it makes me so sad to see women performing their own oppression, for a million different reasons, but to be so nakedly performing their own oppression because that's what society is going to celebrate and allow. It just breaks my fucking heart. It really does.
Brooke Suchomel: 50:42
It's still going on. You still see it today with like, the traditional wife movement. "This is what God wants me to do, just wash the feet of my piece of shit abusive husband."
Kaykay Brady: 50:52
Oh, let's not even talk about MLMs. MLMs take advantage of this, big time.
Brooke Suchomel: 50:57
Absolutely. So, you know, VC Andrews books, I went from reading Baby-sitters Club to reading VC Andrews.
Kaykay Brady: 51:05
No!
Brooke Suchomel: 51:05
Abso-fucking-lutely.
Kaykay Brady: 51:05
No!
Brooke Suchomel: 51:06
Absolutely.
Kaykay Brady: 51:07
Oh, Brooke!
Brooke Suchomel: 51:09
So I was reading the Mary Anne and the Search for Tigger books when I was in elementary school, and the second that I get to junior high, the age of the girls in this book, I'm reading VC Andrews.
Kaykay Brady: 51:18
Dang.
Brooke Suchomel: 51:19
That was like, the cool books to read, right? Because it was scandalous. So to me, it just feels like there's some commentary there on the way that girls and relationships are portrayed in both the media and in culture as a whole. And that Ann M. Martin is not down with the shit, but she's sort of being forced to have this character who is...
Kaykay Brady: 51:39
Yeah, she can only go so far.
Brooke Suchomel: 51:41
Right. And so she's just like, Okay, fine. I am going to like, really go to extremes here, so that I'm making it very clear that even though I have to have this character in this relationship, and they have to continue to be in a relationship and not break up- I think she probably wanted to break them up before she moved on, before she left the series. And was told that they couldn't do that, because that was another key plot point that ghostwriters would be able to pick up on. This is just my theory, based on my experiences in publishing, and my background doing cultural historical critiques in literature. And in that sense, it's redemptive in that way. But it also concerns me because you have to really be thinking very hard about these books in order to get that message and not the alternate message, which is if your boyfriend treats you shit and steals your cat, give him a
Kaykay Brady: 52:39
Give him some cookies. Yeah, I hear you. I soda. hear you. A lot of kids aren't going to see that deeper critique. They're just going to be like, "Oh, my boyfriend treats me this way. I guess it's normal."
Brooke Suchomel: 52:49
Right. Because ultimately, I'm like, what are they fighting? They're fighting gaslighting horrible males. They're fighting men who don't deserve them.
Kaykay Brady: 53:00
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:00
And unfortunately, the tool that they use is capitulation. And I cannot believe that that is intentional or desired on this particular author's part. What did you think?
Kaykay Brady: 53:14
Yeah, I had similar things. I had, they were fighting cruelty and loss, and the way that they're fighting it is with female connectedness.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:26
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 53:27
Although the end is hard, because nothing really gets fought in the end. It's just like, "Oh, everything's fine."
Brooke Suchomel: 53:33
She gives into him.
Kaykay Brady: 53:34
But for most of the book, it feels like that's the fight.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:38
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 53:39
The ending was not what I expected, at all.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:41
Or wanted.
Kaykay Brady: 53:41
Or wanted. No. God, no, I was like, I had a lot of feelings at the end! What is this?!
Brooke Suchomel: 53:48
There's no way Ann M. wanted this ending. There's just no way.
Kaykay Brady: 53:52
I like your read.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:53
Because somebody who is like, "Don't be such a girl"?!
Kaykay Brady: 53:57
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:57
He doesn't apologize for that! There's no direct address of how misogynistic he's been, and how unempathetic he's been. It's just, poor guy dropped a ball once at baseball practice, so he's going to be a huge fucking dick for the rest of his life. Hey, toxic masculinity, that's it in a nutshell, right there. If anything bad happens in your life, it must be due to outside forces, and you've got to just be a fucking asshole to everybody and then that'll fix things. Just take your frustration out on everyone.
Kaykay Brady: 54:26
Oh, and it's because you're too good!
Brooke Suchomel: 54:27
It's cuz you're too good, yeah!
Kaykay Brady: 54:29
It's because you're amazing! Yeah, that's what also makes me think of the antisocial personality disorder and conduct disorder. It's the grandeur, you know, it's the feelings of grandeur. I mean, look, I know when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. But as far as I'm concerned, this whole book is just an advertisement for being a lesbian.
Brooke Suchomel: 54:48
For real.
Kaykay Brady: 54:49
Because if that's what you get?!
Brooke Suchomel: 54:51
There we go.
Kaykay Brady: 54:52
Yeah! If that's your fucking option?! Kristy ain't lookin' so bad!
Brooke Suchomel: 54:57
Absolutely. Yeah, or celibacy would be better. Again, Mary Anne, I'd like to think that Kristy introduces you to alternate ways of living in the future. But bare minimum, live alone with your cat. Lonely cat lady is so much better than being married to Logan.
Kaykay Brady: 55:17
Definitely. And also, I want to say, I love the way this book treats pet ownership, because it really respects that idea, which was not as common a thought in the 80s, that pets are like family. This is a very strong concept for queers, too. In a lot of cases, we do see our pets as family. I love that the book really respected that. All of the characters that are positively supporting Mary Anne totally respect that. I found that really nice and really touching, and again, not a concept you probably would have gotten too often in the 80s. It's just like, Oh, you have a pet. They're there to kind of serve you.
Brooke Suchomel: 55:59
And to that point, Kristy's mom drives to Stanford to go to her office on a weekend to make photocopies so that they can put up the flyers across town. So again, you've got another female character, and they say, she knows how important Tigger is. Like, this is Tigger, she'll do it. The women are there to support each other. The men are there to be served. And fuck that.
Kaykay Brady: 56:26
Yeah, fuck that. And it's also interesting, because the mother doesn't say, "Tigger is that important." She says, "I know Tigger is that important to you." It's respecting the emotional life of each other and supporting the emotional life of each other, which is lovely to see. And this is a great segue to 80s moments, because one of my 80s moments was your mom having to run copies at her office.
Brooke Suchomel: 56:55
And having to draw a picture of it, because how are you going to get an actual photograph on this flyer? Like, that's not really possible.
Kaykay Brady: 57:06
Yeah, definitely. So that was one of my 80s moments. What else did you have for 80s moments?
Brooke Suchomel: 57:12
I had the game Cootie. Do you remember the game Cootie?
Kaykay Brady: 57:15
No, and I don't even remember them mentioning it.
Brooke Suchomel: 57:18
Yeah, she plays it with Logan's siblings. Mary Anne, when she's babysitting, they play Chutes and Ladders and they play Cootie. Cootie was this game where it was like, it almost looks like a like a giant ant.
Kaykay Brady: 57:33
Yeah, I can sort of see it in my mind even though I've never played it.
Brooke Suchomel: 57:36
You construct a bug from it. I love that, if you look it up on Wikipedia, it's The Game of Cootie, which is just really funny to me for some reason. Cootie took me back. It's really fun to say "Cootie."
Kaykay Brady: 57:50
Alright, Cootie! I know, it's a good word.
Brooke Suchomel: 57:53
I want to keep on saying "Cootie." Cootie Cootie Cootie! See, when I do the transcripts, the most frequently used words come up on it...
Kaykay Brady: 58:00
Cootie! Cootie Cootie Cootie Cootie!
Brooke Suchomel: 58:02
I'm just gonna keep saying "Cootie," so it comes up in the keywords.
Kaykay Brady: 58:04
It's gonna be rage and "Cootie."
Brooke Suchomel: 58:07
Right, just primal screams and Cootie.
Kaykay Brady: 58:11
I also remember that the word "cootie" and "cooties" was huge in the 80s, having cooties. Boys having cooties, girls having cooties...
Brooke Suchomel: 58:19
And how did you get cooties? What were cooties?
Kaykay Brady: 58:22
Vague understanding of this, somebody touching you?
Brooke Suchomel: 58:25
Yes, of the opposite sex touching you, specifically. So like, girls couldn't catch cooties from girls. Girls could only catch cooties from boys and vice versa. So I'm like, is this an STD scenario or something?
Kaykay Brady: 58:39
Yeah, definitely some sort of creepy psychological metaphor for STDs. I was playing football with boys on the reg, so I didn't believe in the cooties theory.
Brooke Suchomel: 58:49
You were immune to cooties, because you had been inoculated with cooties at a very young age.
Kaykay Brady: 58:55
I was so covered in boy cooties that I had perfect immunity.
Brooke Suchomel: 59:00
Yeah. And the whole concept of like, if you touch somebody of the opposite biological sex, you get cooties from them, just again goes to show you how much we were reinforcing gender norms, right? Girls stick with girls, boys stick with boys, ne'er the two shall meet. Because you'll get cooties.
Kaykay Brady: 59:16
Toxic shit.
Brooke Suchomel: 59:17
Yeah. So that was very 80s. And then Mary Anne says to her dad, "It's 10 o'clock. Do you know where Tigger is?" And she says that he didn't get the joke. So she was referencing this whole line of, "It's 10 o'clock. Do you know where your children are?" Do you remember that?
Kaykay Brady: 59:38
Definitely.
Brooke Suchomel: 59:39
What context do you remember that in?
Kaykay Brady: 59:41
Every night after the news.
Brooke Suchomel: 59:42
Do you know what it came from? I didn't know this until I looked it up. It's so funny, it goes back to what we said at the very beginning.
Kaykay Brady: 59:49
Oh no. Lay it on me.
Brooke Suchomel: 59:51
This came from the 60s, when people were out protesting for social justice. And so the news brought it up, so it was, "Parents, do you know where your children are?"
Kaykay Brady: 1:00:02
"Is your long haired hippie child breaking the
Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:03
That's exactly what it was. That's exactly what law?" it was.
Kaykay Brady: 1:00:06
Oh shit.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:06
"Are your children at home under your roof, and not out there in the streets protesting?" That's what it was.
Kaykay Brady: 1:00:15
Dang. That's amazing! That makes all kinds of sense to me.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:19
Mm hmm. Lots of control mechanisms coming up again and again and again in this episode.
Kaykay Brady: 1:00:24
"Are your children at home, currently, being good Americans?"
Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:27
Right. "Are your children at home being quiet and placating and agreeing to the prescribed roles that we have put upon them?"
Kaykay Brady: 1:00:37
TV says they should be.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:39
Ah, man.
Kaykay Brady: 1:00:40
I had two other 80s things. There's this whole scene where they're reenacting Hawaii Five O. Hawaii Five O started in the 60s, but it ran till 1980 and it was in syndication all over the place in the 80s. So that was very 80s for me, they knew Hawaii Five O and they were playing Hawaii Five O. They're like, "Oh, I'm a Hawaiian detective."
Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:00
Uh huh. It could be Magnum P.I., too.
Kaykay Brady: 1:01:03
Was in Hawaii?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:03
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 1:01:05
Oh, shit. What was with Hawaii detective shows?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:08
I think they mentioned that "detectives are always in Hawaii," and it's like, you are correct.
Kaykay Brady: 1:01:12
Oh, yeah. Okay, that I was wondering why they said that because I was like, what other shows are they watching with Hawaiian detectives? There you go. Magnum P.I.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:20
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 1:01:20
Alright, so I had that, and then I had not using a landline during an electrical storm. So that was a thing people were afraid of in the 80s, was getting electrocuted during a storm using the telephone.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:32
Oh, like in your house? I was always like, Don't run the water. Don't wash your hands during an electrical storm, because the lightning could come through the pipes and you could get electrocuted washing your hands. Definitely don't get in the shower. You will absolutely be electrocuted and die in your own shower if it's storming.
Kaykay Brady: 1:01:50
Definitely don't swim, because there's sharks in the pool. That was a throwback to earlier episodes.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:55
Right. Or be careful if going to the bathroom in an electric storm, because you could get shocked up through the toilet and there also may be a snake in there, so...
Kaykay Brady: 1:02:05
Who might be an electric snake.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:02:08
An electric eel. There may be an electric eel in your toilet.
Kaykay Brady: 1:02:11
Right, an electric eel in your tur-lett.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:02:12
So don't pee in it if it's storming. Just hold it. You just got to hold your pee if it's storming.
Kaykay Brady: 1:02:18
It's 10 o'clock. Do you have an electric eel in your toilet?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:02:23
It's 10 o'clock. Do you know what animals are in your toilet? Oh man.
Kaykay Brady: 1:02:27
Ah, I'm loving this. See? The oppression of this book has driven us to very creative spaces to let off the tension.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:02:36
Toxic masculinity to electric eels and toilets, it's a direct line. It's a straight line, my friend.
Kaykay Brady: 1:02:44
Ah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:02:45
Yeah. So this book was quite a roller coaster. And we are heading from one book that puts you through an emotional wringer to another book that puts you through the emotional wringer, because our next book is Claudia and the Sad Goodbye.
Kaykay Brady: 1:03:02
Oh, what? Does Mimi die?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:03:06
Mm hmm.
Kaykay Brady: 1:03:08
Oh, they've been definitely dropping hints about this.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:03:12
Yeah, they've been building up to this.
Kaykay Brady: 1:03:13
Oh!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:03:15
They cover this book in the second season of the Netflix show as well. And again, I'm holding off on watching it until we can watch it together, and we'll have a good baseline of the storylines before we watch it. But from what I've seen, this episode in Season Two is really really really really good. It's very high praised.
Kaykay Brady: 1:03:37
Shit, I can't wait.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:03:38
So yeah, we're gonna be dealing with some more heavy topics in the next book, but hopefully Logan will be nowhere to be found.
Kaykay Brady: 1:03:47
I was gonna say, I hope he doesn't have his mitts anywhere near this topic.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:03:51
Logan is not the person to have around in a crisis.
Kaykay Brady: 1:03:53
No.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:03:54
But all of the other Baby-sitters Club members are.
Kaykay Brady: 1:03:57
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:03:57
So hopefully we get back to the core group in our next book.
Kaykay Brady: 1:04:01
Or at least have that be more of the central plot point, rather than this toxic gaslighting.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:04:06
Exactly.
Kaykay Brady: 1:04:07
Yeah, we're gonna have a real like, existential topic next time.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:04:11
We will and we'll also hopefully be able to sprinkle in some toilet animals, too, to lighten the book up.
Kaykay Brady: 1:04:18
We'll still be talking about electric eels going up your bum, so...
Brooke Suchomel: 1:04:23
This show contains multitudes.
Kaykay Brady: 1:04:26
Yeah! We like to hold all of the extremes of the human experience here.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:04:30
Right. So we'll find out how that plays out next time, and I'm looking forward to that. But until then...
Kaykay Brady: 1:04:38
Just keep sittin'. [theme] What a little shitbird!
