Transcript - BSFC #31: Dawn’s Wicked Stepsister

[00:00:00] Brooke: Welcome to the Baby-sitters Fight Club, where the first rule is, you don't talk about Fight Club. Instead, you talk about the battles fought and the lessons learned in the Baby-sitters Club series of books by Ann M. Martin. I'm Brooke Suchomel, an editor who's revisiting these books after 30 years.

[00:00:24] Kaykay: And I'm Kaykay Brady. I'm a therapist and I'm new to these lovely books.

[00:00:29] Brooke: And this week, we're going to take you back to February of 1990. But first I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge the time that we're all currently living in, because when we, you know, every time we go back and we talk about the historical events that were happening at the time, the pop culture of the time, the goal of doing that is always to ground us in how all forms of media are responding to current conditions.

And how, you know, there's that saying? And I'm going to get it wrong, but it's like, history repeats itself, but sometimes it sings the same song, but in a different key or with different notes or whatever.

[00:01:11] Kaykay: Or it often rhymes.

[00:01:13] Brooke: Right. Exactly. Yeah. Thank you. It's like one of those things, my brain has been like spinning for days as I've just been glued to watching...

[00:01:20] Kaykay: Understandable.

[00:01:21] Brooke: Yeah. So things that I could formerly recite have gone missing from my brain. So thank you Kaykay for stepping in, I appreciate that. Also this episode will be released like two weeks after we're recording this.

[00:01:34] Kaykay: Yeah, so who fucking knows what the world looks like.

[00:01:39] Brooke: Exactly. But as we're talking right now, we're talking on February 27th to set the time.

And, um, it has just been both the worst and the best of humanity being displayed on our television screens, live in real time. And what I have found in this really dark time to be so inspiring has been the will and the resolve of the Ukrainian people. And it feels like we're watching a true battle of like good and evil play out in front of us.

It's like we're living in an action movie somehow. And like in America, we're fortunate enough to be the observers who are watching it comfortably from afar. But it's not actors that are engaging in what we're seeing. These are real human beings, some of whom we are watching that will not live to see the end of this. And they're doing what needs to be done to protect themselves, and to protect their loved ones and their neighbors and people they don't even know.

And frankly, to protect us, because the whole point of what they're doing is to protect the concept of having your right to determine your own lives. Self-determination is what this is all about. And they're fighting against a tyrant who seeks to impose his will upon them and take away their freedoms to live as they choose to do.

By the time this episode comes out, we have no idea where things will be. But one thing that won't have changed is we will all have gotten to bear witness to the best of humanity stepping up in the most difficult time. And I just think that that's such a beautiful thing, and also calls to mind the things that we have been discussing when we talk about geopolitical events of 1989.

1989 was such a wild time. And it is exactly reflected in what we're seeing right now, because what was leading those changes in 1989, that led to democracies being instituted in places that had been oppressed for so long? It was people just standing up and saying, we're done with this. It was people saying we demand ownership of our lives and taking to the streets and not backing down. Everything that we have discussed with the Monday protests that led to change in East Germany, with the student protests and the theater protests that led to change in Czechoslovakia, like people taking to the streets of South Africa to demand an end to apartheid.

That is what history has shown, time and time again, results in real change. That's where freedom comes from. It comes from individuals coming together with the goal of standing up for themselves and each other, and we're seeing it happen now. And goddammit, I am so fucking proud of the Ukrainians. This is it.

And I just I'd be remiss if we started this episode without acknowledging that, because it would be in my head the entire time for the rest of the episode, if we didn't. So I just wanted to say that.

[00:04:58] Kaykay: That's beautiful.

[00:04:59] Brooke: And this directly connects to a big event that happened in February of 1990, because as we mentioned, the south African people played such a critical role in the changes to their government. And this is the month that, on February 11th, Nelson Mandela was released after 27 years in prison.

[00:05:17] Kaykay: Oh, woot woot!

[00:05:18] Brooke: So that was the big news story of February of 1990. In terms of the pop culture, less memorable. The number ones on the charts, so we started February with Michael Bolton still holding on after fending off the righteous "Rhythm Nation" in its quest to be number one, not just in our hearts, but on the charts.

Paula Abdul eventually triumphed with "Opposites Attract." So this was MC Skat Kat.

[00:05:48] Kaykay: DJ Skat Kat. Oh, sorry, MC Skat Kat. How dare I?

[00:05:53] Brooke: Yeah. So 1990 is MC. DJ comes later on. You know, it'd be amazing if all of like the EDM DJs today went by, like MC. It'd give it a different vibe.

[00:06:03] Kaykay: I'm sure. I'm sure it'll come back around.

[00:06:06] Brooke: Put on a Kangol cap and like a gold chain and be an MC, Scrillex.

[00:06:10] Kaykay: I mean, obviously. I can't even make a joke. I'm too old.

[00:06:16] Brooke: Well, you're old enough to remember the music video. Did this make an impression?

[00:06:19] Kaykay: I can pull up MC Skat Kat clearly in my mind, tap dancing with Paula.

[00:06:25] Brooke: Well, can you define for anyone who may not know what we're talking about what MC Skat Kat was?

[00:06:31] Kaykay: Oh, right. I'm making an assumption that people can also pull up MC Skat Kat. Uh, he was like a cartoon. It was Paula Abdul was a physical human in the video.

[00:06:42] Brooke: Right.

[00:06:42] Kaykay: And MC Skat Kat was a cartoon, uh, cat! I was going to say fox, but I'm like, oh, it's in his name. He's a fucking cat.

[00:06:51] Brooke: He kind of looked like Chester Cheetah, you know, the Cheetos mascot? It's like Chester Cheeto becomes a rapper, plays the role that would in the early 2000s be played by Nelly. You know, just like coming in doing a verse.

[00:07:05] Kaykay: Oh shit. MC Skat Kat is Nelly.

[00:07:08] Brooke: He's the prototype for Nelly.

[00:07:11] Kaykay: And they tap danced. Almost like a little dance off situation.

[00:07:14] Brooke: Yeah. Like a Gene Kelly dance moment.

[00:07:17] Kaykay: Yeah, good description.

[00:07:18] Brooke: This was not long after Who Framed Roger Rabbit and the whole we're gonna merge live action and animation, and so was taking that same vibe to MTV. So MC Skat Kat, forever in our hearts, did not reappear on the charts.

[00:07:35] Kaykay: What a tragedy. It's still better than Michael Bolton.

[00:07:39] Brooke: It's not too late.

[00:07:39] Kaykay: I'd take Skat Kat everyday over Michael Bolton.

[00:07:41] Brooke: I say, let's have a revival. I mean, everything is getting rebooted. Like everyone's coming, from the early nineties, is coming back. Let's go, MC Skat Kat. I want to hear you on Hip Hop Nation. Do your thing.

[00:07:53] Kaykay: We need like a Joker style biopic.

[00:07:57] Brooke: A gritty reboot of the "Opposites Attract" video.

[00:08:01] Kaykay: Yeah! MC Skat Kat's life. How did he find himself there? What roads led to this?

[00:08:11] Brooke: Oh, that's fantastic. Please, we put that out into the universe. Let's manifest that into reality. Movies wise, also... Driving Miss Daisy and Hard to Kill, starring noted piece of shit, Steven Seagal. So we won't talk about that one.

[00:08:29] Kaykay: Never saw it. Don't care to.

[00:08:31] Brooke: Don't. Yeah, please don't. Instead, if you want to watch something from February 1990 that is also spectacular trash, but like, it's not trash. It's spectacular trash. Debuting on TV in February of 1990 was a little show called The Bradys. Are you familiar with The Bradys?

[00:08:51] Kaykay: Was this like a variety show?

[00:08:52] Brooke: Hmm mm.

[00:08:53] Kaykay: I don't know then.

[00:08:55] Brooke: Are you thinking that it has to do with The Brady Bunch?

[00:08:58] Kaykay: Yeah.

[00:08:58] Brooke: So you're correct. It does.

[00:09:00] Kaykay: Okay.

[00:09:01] Brooke: But it is like, so we were just talking about gritty reboots. It's like a gritty reboot of The Brady Bunch.

[00:09:07] Kaykay: What? Do we finally realize that Papa Brady's gay?

[00:09:13] Brooke: No, but he's running, he's running for office in this, so it will come out, I'm sure, in the oppo research. This is a dramatic reboot of The Brady Bunch. We talked several episodes ago about The Brady Bunch Christmas, the TV movie, and so it's like following up on that. Here's what happens in The Bradys. Bobby's a paraplegic. Marcia is an alcoholic.

[00:09:46] Kaykay: What? What?!

[00:09:46] Brooke: Uh huh.

[00:09:46] Kaykay: What kind of...what the fuck?

[00:09:47] Brooke: Peter is in an abusive relationship where he is the abused one, and the Brady house is seized by eminent domain.

[00:09:59] Kaykay: You're making this up.

[00:10:00] Brooke: I'm not. It still kept its laugh track.

[00:10:02] Kaykay: I never wanna doubt you, my friend, but...

[00:10:03] Brooke: It still kept its laugh track, Kaykay.

[00:10:06] Kaykay: That is dark.

[00:10:07] Brooke: Everything I'm describing happens with a laugh track. And I have to share something with you. There's something that you have to see and I have to get your reaction in real time. So there are three different versions of the theme song. One was for the pilot, one was for the original airing, and then the other one was for syndication. The third one that we're going to focus on was the syndicated one, with lyrics song by Florence Henderson herself, and we'll watch the whole thing so that you can see everything come together.

[00:10:39] Kaykay: Thank God I'm already sitting down.

[00:10:40] Brooke: Okay. You ready for this? I don't know if you're ready for this, but we're going to find out. Let's go. So we can't actually play the theme song here for copyright reasons...

[00:10:49] Kaykay: It sounds like karaoke!

[00:10:50] Brooke: But the link to the YouTube video is in the show notes. Check it out. You won't be disappointed.

[00:10:59] Kaykay: Wow.

[00:11:00] Brooke: Thoughts?

[00:11:01] Kaykay: "That's how the Brady Bunch became The Bradys! Even though it's the same name, what the fuck does this mean?" I want to send this to my family. You know, we could play this at reunions, weddings, baptisms...

[00:11:22] Brooke: People walk down the aisle to that song.

[00:11:25] Kaykay: I'll just have a boombox in church. I'm going to bring a boombox and I'll just stand there like what's his name from Say Anything.

[00:11:33] Brooke: John Cusack?

[00:11:35] Kaykay: Yeah. Wow, Brooke. Uh, I'm so glad you brought this to the table. I feel so happy that you kind of held me through that, like you were my therapist and we were on a psilocybin trip.

[00:11:47] Brooke: I needed to guide you.

[00:11:48] Kaykay: I definitely needed a shaman and a guide. That could not, like that should not, that should not be experienced alone.

[00:11:56] Brooke: I like woke my husband up last night. This came into my head again, after I had seen it. I just like, I was like, oh yeah, I remember that. And I was shaking and sobbing with laughter and I woke him up. Just the thought of it. It's so ridiculous.

[00:12:11] Kaykay: Kind of like, I watched House of Gucci last night and uh, similarly ridiculous.

[00:12:15] Brooke: The Bradys syndication theme song is the House of Gucci of syndication theme songs.

[00:12:21] Kaykay: Exactly.

[00:12:22] Brooke: As I was listening to it, you know...

[00:12:24] Kaykay: Ah, bless you. Bless you, my friend.

[00:12:25] Brooke: I heard you say it's like karaoke, and then I heard you say it's like, how you could use this for your family. I shit you not, my first thought was, it's like Kaykay took her aunt to karaoke and put on The Brady Bunch theme song, thinking she would know the words, and she didn't. And so she just started rambling about her own life.

[00:12:48] Kaykay: But actually it would have to be more like Kaykay, pretending to be her aunt. Because I don't see any of my aunts being able to go this deep.

[00:12:59] Brooke: And it got to the end, that last line, which you so beautifully sang, I was like, you're on a rollercoaster, right? And I'm like, okay, we're getting ready to crest that hill.

And I'm like, oh shit. Is she going to say, "That's how we became the Bradys?" And I'm waiting for it, waiting for it. And then it's like, you thought you were going on a kid's rollercoaster? Hell no, motherfucker. You're on like a Cedar Point thrill ride, because she took it to the next level with "That's how the Brady Bunch became the Bradys."

[00:13:33] Kaykay: And then I liked how the music kind of goes away. So it's just, her vocals are hanging out there in a very vulnerable way and make it like extra weird.

[00:13:43] Brooke: I do think it's the closest thing that I've ever had to, as you said, a psilocybin trip. I was like, I felt like I had left my body as I was watching it. I felt like I was watching myself watching theme song.

[00:13:56] Kaykay: Yeah. Yeah, um, also I really need to shout out, I love that old kind of Ethel Mirman type singing style. Oh, that needs to come back! Come on, matronly women of the world. Let that voice fly, motherfuckers. Let it fly!

[00:14:17] Brooke: Oh man.

[00:14:19] Kaykay: I mean, how can we go up from here? I don't, you know, I don't even know how we're going to talk about this book.

[00:14:24] Brooke: Like, if anybody wanted to know what my sense of humor was, I'm just going to send them that video. Cause that's literally the funniest thing I've ever seen in my life.

[00:14:32] Kaykay: You're going to get a few very quality friends out of that. You're going to get like the friends you want to keep out of that move, and everybody else moved to the side.

[00:14:40] Brooke: Yeah. It's going to be like a vetting process. I'm going to be like any new friends, I'm going to be like, you have to watch this. And if they don't laugh, I'm going to shake their hand and wish them a good life. But like, we're just not going to be able to connect at a deeper level.

[00:14:56] Kaykay: I'm not saying you're a bad person. I'm just saying this relationship can go no further.

[00:15:02] Brooke: I wish you success. Oh, well thank you for sharing that moment with me.

[00:15:08] Kaykay: Thank me? Thank you.

[00:15:13] Brooke: Ah, so that was the TV show that debuted in February of 1990, a show that was all about, you know, deep tensions in the household and complicating previously seemingly idyllic relationships, which I think leads us perfectly into our discussion about the 31st Baby-sitters Club book.

[00:15:36] Kaykay: Hey, look at that!

[00:15:37] Brooke: Dawn and the Wicked Step-sister, which was released.

So it's time for some back cover copy. And I quote, "Now that Dawn and Mary Anne are friends and sisters, Dawn wants them to do everything together. Share a room, talk all night long, wear each other's clothes, but living with Mary Anne isn't exactly what Dawn expected.

Mary Anne brags about having a date to the school dance, her kitten throws up on the rug, and she hogs Dawn's babysitting jobs!" That bitch! "Dawn always wanted a sister. Instead, she got Mary Anne, the wicked step-sister of Stoneybrook!" End quote.

[00:16:20] Kaykay: I love that you said "That bitch!" Just like a drag queen, because I felt that, I was watching an episode of RuPaul's Drag Race, where they're fighting for a role.

[00:16:28] Brooke: Yeah.

[00:16:29] Kaykay: You know, and, and one of them was just like, oh fuck it. I'm not budging.

[00:16:32] Brooke: I take it you watched this week's episode of Drag Race?

[00:16:35] Kaykay: Yes I did, and I'm thinking of, what is Crystal Methyd's...

[00:16:38] Brooke: Daya Betty.

[00:16:40] Kaykay: Daya Betty, sorry.

[00:16:41] Brooke: Daya Betty vibes in this episode.

[00:16:42] Kaykay: Yeah, anyways, it reminded me, it was super Daya Betty vibes when they're fighting for the same babysitting gig. And neither of them will budge and the rest of the group's like, "Girl!"

[00:16:50] Brooke: And did you notice who was the one who was just like, not having it, I'm going to resolve this problem, and did it?

[00:16:55] Kaykay: Kristy!

[00:16:56] Brooke: Kristy.

[00:16:57] Kaykay: Yeah, there's a lot of Kristy coming through in this book of like, God bless Kristy. You know, she's just, she's very like pragmatic and down to earth in a way. And so she can really cut through the bullshit sometimes and just be like, "Nope, come together. We're working this out."

[00:17:12] Brooke: Yeah. Kristy, I thought was at her best again, this is like, you get books where it's like good Kristy and bad Kristy, you know, even though bad Kristy isn't bad, but it's like, you're supposed to see Kristy as like some, a source of like leadership and wisdom.

And in some books it's like Kristy serves more as like a foil. And in this book was definitely the leadership and wisdom version of Kristy, which is like the Kristy we all stan.

[00:17:37] Kaykay: It's interesting you say it that way, because I think of it as like, sometimes Kristy comes through and sometimes she doesn't. Meaning like, sometimes it feels like a real character comes through and sometimes she's more of a foil.

I think exactly what, what you're saying. Like, I, it's, it's hard for me to pinpoint her. It's, it's almost like the real character's not there sometimes.

[00:17:57] Brooke: Right. It's like the writer is irritated with Kristy. It's like, you feel like Kristy did something to like piss off the writer. And so the writer is going to write Kristy in her worst light or something.

[00:18:09] Kaykay: Which is interesting because if you think of Mary Anne as closer to the author's experience, maybe Kristy is like her partner. And she's in the dog house!

[00:18:19] Brooke: Right, yeah.

[00:18:19] Kaykay: She forgot to get the organic dog food. She forgot to get the organic cat chow. You in the dog house!

[00:18:27] Brooke: Seriously. So what were some of the moments that you saw in this book where you were like, ah, that's the Kristy that we know and love?

[00:18:36] Kaykay: Yeah, it was the scene you were talking about, where they're fighting and there's just a real tense point where nobody's giving. And Kristy just really faces it and names it, and they talk about it and it kind of creates a little bit of movement.

And I always think of Kristy as a very brave character. Uh, you know, that's sort of like her biggest asset, which has a shadow side, right? And so whenever those little moments of bravery come through, I'm like, oh yeah, that really strikes me as the Kristy character. And, you know, in these interpersonal moments, that is when the most bravery is required.

Um, we see Dawn's complete lack of bravery in discussing with Mary Anne that she wants her to move out of her room. Instead she scares her with, well, like a whole plan. A whole scary ghost plan.

[00:19:27] Brooke: Full on like ghost gaslighting.

[00:19:29] Kaykay: Yes. Ghost gaslighting. Anyway. So, you know, Kristy really steps up as the brave one in this regard.

And also shows, does throw a little light on some of the lacking of bravery that the other characters are experiencing.

[00:19:43] Brooke: I love that you're using the word bravery because you know, to be clear, the context is they're at a meeting of the Baby-sitters Club, and there is a call for a job for, I believe it's the Perkins kids.

So, uh, you know, in the, in the vicinity of the home Mary Anne has recently departed and had a really hard time leaving. Both Mary Anne and Dawn are available for the job, and they both want it and they both are not budging. And so Kristy is the one who, there are two things that she does. One, she wants to resolve it, but before she can, the next call comes in for a job.

And it turns out that both she Kristy and Stacey are available for it. And so she goes, "Stacey, you take it. It'll be more difficult for me to get there." And so she turns and she's like, she's modeling the kind of behavior.

[00:20:38] Kaykay: Yeah.

[00:20:39] Brooke: So it's not like she's like, you guys need to work it out, and then she is hypocritical and refuses to work it out when she's the one who could stand to benefit. She's like modeling the kind of teamwork based behavior, and like being thoughtful for others, that she wants to see everybody in the group demonstrate.

[00:21:00] Kaykay: Yes. And that is the best kind of way to show someone. For example, it makes me think a lot of the therapy relationship, because a lot of what you're doing as a therapist is like modeling for clients how to communicate.

'cause a lot of the therapeutic relationship is going to be, some of it is going to be talking about the relationship you're having with your therapist, or like maybe your therapist says something that upsets you or makes you feel unseen. Well, being able to like talk to your therapist about it and your therapist holding that with like care and love and not getting dismissive, not getting aggressive, models for the client, like, this is a way you can communicate with people.

[00:21:40] Brooke: Yeah.

[00:21:40] Kaykay: Anyway, tangent. Complete tangent, but it does remind me of the sheer power of modeling.

[00:21:46] Brooke: So you can see that up and down. It's not a tangent to me, it seems like it's a clear example of how bravery can manifest in what might seem like innocuous circumstances.

Like, I think so often we have this concept of bravery is like, something where you literally are like putting your physical life at risk, you know?

[00:22:07] Kaykay: Yeah, you slayed the dragon.

[00:22:09] Brooke: Right. Or, well bravery is for other people, you know, who might be in more challenging circumstances.

[00:22:16] Kaykay: And also, could we call it like, men?

[00:22:18] Brooke: Exactly. But like true bravery is when people step up and they're willing to take on a personal risk to themselves of any sort. It can be a financial risk. It can be an emotional risk. It can be, of course it can be a physical risk, but it can be so many things where there's a status quo disruption. Right? Where it's like you're saying, "I can just go along and I might be okay."

Like, "My chances of being okay are better if I go along. But I know that going along is not the right thing to do. So I'm going to take that risk to push for something, no matter what it is." And so like in your situation, what you're describing, you're taking a risk of potentially alienating your therapist. Particularly for people who might be in therapy because they have a hard time speaking up for themselves.

[00:23:09] Kaykay: Yep. A lot of people. Exactly.

[00:23:11] Brooke: So I'm sure that makes it feel all the more riskier. And I would guess like, would a therapist, if I was a therapist, I would be like, "Wow. I seems like I'm really making progress with this client if this client feels confident and comfortable enough to raise this issue." It's an endorsement of the therapist.

[00:23:27] Kaykay: Yes, it's an end zone dance. It's a straight up end zone dance. And that is how the real relationship, the therapy relationship builds. It's called a rupture is what we call it. Something happens in a therapeutic relationship, like your job as a therapist is to be very attuned with your client.

But you know, that's not always going to happen. Like you're a human, they're a human. And so there are these little ruptures happen and the ruptures often are thematic for the client of other ruptures they've had outside. And so it's like the place where for the first time in their life, the client can bring this to the table and have a different experience with another human being versus like what they may have learned in their family.

So it's like the true magic of therapy. So like a hundred percent, if your client talks about something like this with you, it's, it's like, it is the goal. And it challenges you as a therapist because you need to be brave and not defensive, you know. Like you need to open your heart and your mind to your client's experience and like hold them in the way that they deserve.

[00:24:29] Brooke: Yeah. I love how you said rupture because it makes me think of, and I don't know enough about it, but just that whole concept of in Japan, like when fine goods crack and are broken, using gold to like reattach it. To make it even more like, the crack and the coming back together is what makes it all the more beautiful and all the more worthy, you know, of being held in high regard.

[00:24:57] Kaykay: Yeah, beautiful metaphor.

[00:24:58] Brooke: It's not less valuable because it had been broken. It's more valuable because it had been broken and it's still together. And I think that that applies to humans too, that applies to all of us.

[00:25:09] Kaykay: And it applies to this book.

[00:25:11] Brooke: Yeah.

[00:25:12] Kaykay: Because what we have is a rupture and repair that's kind of happening in this relationship. I don't know, that's why I love these books because this is so important. It's like rarely talked about, these sort of like deep interpersonal struggles that everybody has, and the way the book really attempts to like, look at them, learn from them and how the relationships are built on the conflict. Right?

Like, we would not have this strong series, we would not have a believable cast of characters that are connected with each other, without the conflict.

[00:25:49] Brooke: Right.

[00:25:49] Kaykay: Because if you don't have the conflict, you don't have a relationship. There's only one way to never have conflict in a relationship, and that's not to be in relationships.

[00:25:58] Brooke: Right.

[00:25:58] Kaykay: So it's like the beauty of slowing down and like looking at that, I think it's so great, and I feel so grateful that a generation of girls like, or boys, hopefully, too...

[00:26:10] Brooke: Well at the time, it was definitely, I think, you know, girls. And I think one of the ways that this was able to be subversive in the way that it was is because it wasn't being taken seriously, and it wasn't being looked at closely by boys.

[00:26:23] Kaykay: Right

[00:26:24] Brooke: Because in that very segregated society that we were in, in the eighties and nineties, and granted, we're still in a very segregated society, but the sort of clear delineation of boundaries between what boys can do and can enjoy and what girls can do and can enjoy. Like, it's not like that was a door that can be opened. Those were like concrete barriers in between. And now I know that, like we have a mutual friend whose son was recently reading a Baby-sitters Club graphic novel at a brunch that we were at.

And of course me, I'm like, "Oh, is that your daughter's book? Is she reading that?" They're like, "Yeah, but he's reading it too." And it was one of those things where I was just, I didn't know that we were there yet. You know? Of course I wanted it to, I was like, there's a possibility, but it just seemed so remote, given my own experiences growing up, where that would never in a million years have happened, like in a public setting.

Like if there were boys reading Baby-sitters Club books, they weren't doing it-

[00:27:28] Kaykay: They weren't doing it at brunch.

[00:27:30] Brooke: At brunch, out in public with their parents' old friends, you know? And with other kids.

[00:27:34] Kaykay: Well we should say it's a dope ass lesbian couple. Might stack the deck in their favor.

[00:27:38] Brooke: Yeah, it's our friends, so that should be the assumption. We'll be like, "Our straight friends." Yeah. But I mean, but again, that shows you too, about how when you are coming up without the sort of firm concept of what a quote unquote "nuclear family" should be, and what the gender roles are that everyone should play, then these kids are able to explore their actual interests as humans, not as quote unquote "boys" or "girls," and that's where those barriers can fall, or at least become permeable, you know?

And so I think it's cool now to see how as those barriers have become more permeable, it's like, the Baby-sitters Club series hasn't gone away. They haven't written any new books since the nineties. You know, they've rebooted it with graphic novels and such, but there hasn't been new content since then. And so they're engaging with the same old content that we did. And to see boys and to see, like I've mentioned, you know, my husband freaking loves the Netflix show. Genuinely, and like talks it up to friends and stuff like that, you know? It's really cool to see that gap being bridged.

[00:28:55] Kaykay: And I think you make a great point, which is, you know, there's a timelessness to the books. And I think it's in part because of what we're talking about. Because the books, yes, they have plots, but you know, the plot is not the central thing. The central thing is the interpersonal interactions, which are consistent, right? Like, humans are struggling with that in 2022, just like they were in 1982. So the books' focus on this interpersonalness gives it a timelessness that some other books may not have, that are more plot driven.

[00:29:28] Brooke: Yeah. Cause no matter what stage of your life you're in and where you live and where you, you know, what your class is or anything like that, you are going to be living alongside other humans. That is a universal experience that applies to everyone. And I agree, like these books, with the exception of the Super Specials and some of our not so favorite outliers from the series itself, in general, they really do focus more on character development and the way that relationships and personalities develop. As opposed to like, super cool action plot, yay! You know?

[00:30:09] Kaykay: Yeah, totally agreed.

[00:30:11] Brooke: So, yeah. So we see that Kristy provides a good example, by modeling, of leadership. She then, when that modeling doesn't work at all, she's like, "We're going to draw straws." And they start arguing about, "What order are we going to draw in?" And she's like, "It's alphabetical by name."

She's just like, no nonsense. She's just like, there are times when you don't have to talk things out. Right? If you're showing that this is not a good time for conversation, we just need to move something forward, she makes it happen. No nonsense, let's get it done.

But then she also has an extended conversation, like deep conversation, with Dawn at school about what Dawn is feeling and about how Dawn is struggling with having Mary Anne and Mary Anne's dad like physically in her space, and how Mary Anne and her, how their relationship is changing accordingly. Mary Anne is not at her best in this book.

[00:31:12] Kaykay: You know, neither is Dawn.

[00:31:13] Brooke: Neither of them are, but like Mary Anne goes full Karen. And not Karen as in-

[00:31:19] Kaykay: Not Karen Brewer?

[00:31:20] Brooke: As in Karen Brewer, as in like, witches and Q Anon, you know.

[00:31:26] Kaykay: That would be amazing. She fights fire with fire in the haunting scene, where she dresses as a witch.

[00:31:33] Brooke: Oh, that would be dope actually. But what she does instead is she fat shames Dawn. You know?

[00:31:41] Kaykay: There's three episodes of fat shaming.

[00:31:42] Brooke: Multiple, I noticed two of them. Okay. So you had, when Mary Anne and Dawn are fighting over, who gets this babysitting job? Mary Anne and Dawn had swapped clothes to wear to school. And Mary Anne just looks at Dawn and apropos of nothing goes, "You know, I don't think that skirt's great for you. It looks a little tight." Which is like, it's always a bitch move when you live in a society where it's like your value.

[00:32:10] Kaykay: It's like the worst thing you could be as a woman, right? You're valued on your looks.

[00:32:13] Brooke: Your value as a woman is, how thin are you? And so it's like a potshot at Dawn's value in society for absolutely no reason. And then there was the thing where Jeff was talking about, so Dawn talks to her brother Jeff quite a bit in this book. You see her having conversations with him about the changes in the family and in the households, and she needs someone to vent to who she trusts and feels like understands her.

And he's talking about how, you know, he has something similar going on back home in California, where his dad's girlfriend is over a lot. And it seems like he likes her, but he also says, "You know, she takes up space. I can't really be myself fully around her because she takes up space." She was like, "Well, it's not like she's fat or anything."

And then Dawn laughs at that, like "That's funny," you know? So there's a couple where you're just like, oh God. Like, you can't escape it in things of that time, even in your feminist content.

[00:33:10] Kaykay: Yeah. And then there was also the scene with Claudia where it says, "It's a good thing Claud is one of those lucky people who never seems to get overweight or pimply from so much bad food. If she did, that would be a dead giveaway to her parents that she's hiding food. Luckily, Claudia's slender and absolutely gorgeous. She's Japanese American and has long silky black hair, dark almond shaped eyes, and a creamy complexion."

[00:33:33] Brooke: There's so much wrapped up in that.

[00:33:35] Kaykay: I'm like hesitant to even unpack it.

[00:33:37] Brooke: We could have an entire podcast unpacking that.

[00:33:40] Kaykay: We could have an entire podcast on that, but yeah, so I guess I'll just say writ large, the fatphobia's starting to roll out more consistently in the books, which I was wondering like, God, I wonder, you know, traditionally in the queer community, we're much more celebratory of body diversity of like lots of different types. And it can be a way to also try to separate yourself from your queerness to be thin, right? Because you read more as a straight person as opposed to like a fat dyke or whatever. So I'm wondering if this is also wrapped up for Ann M in her fears of her sexuality, and or fears of class, but it's just interesting we're seeing it be much more explicit in the last few books.

[00:34:25] Brooke: And it's funny that you're bringing that up right after talking about that scene with Claudia, the description of Claudia, because I had actually tabbed the paragraph right before that, like literally leading up to that as like, this feels very queer coded to me. So let me read this. So let me read this and tell me what you think.

So going back to page 12, talking about how she loves junk food, right. And how it's just everywhere. Her junk food is everywhere. And she says, "Oh, and the junk food is hidden because Claud's parents don't approve of that either, but Claud can't live without it. She's got Ring Dings, Ho-Hos, Yodels, potato chips, gum and other stuff and every nook and cranny."

To me, that...

[00:35:05] Kaykay: Yeah. It definitely, yeah. Say more.

[00:35:06] Brooke: It's like, there's, there's a part of herself that is who she is. It's something that she truly enjoys, that she loves. You know, we hear all the time, Claudia is like defined by how much she loves her junk food, right? And the fact that she knows her parents don't approve, but she can't change it, and so she has to keep it hidden. But it's still there, you know? To me, that felt queer coded.

[00:35:31] Kaykay: Yeah. And also again, I'm always trying to stop myself from psychoanalyzing Ann M too much, but fuck it. I'm a therapist, I'm reading books, I do what I want!

[00:35:43] Brooke: And if anyone can psychoanalyze, it's somebody who actually has training in doing so. So continue.

[00:35:49] Kaykay: So looking at Ann M, and looking at a queer person in the eighties or nineties or someone coming to terms with their queerness, I can imagine a scenario where you're like, "Well inside, I'm this horrible thing. I love my junk food.

But outside, I look normal. I'm not fat, right? It would be one thing if I enjoyed my junk food and I was fat. Then the whole fucking jig is up. But the fact that I love my junk food and I'm slender and beautiful? Well, I'm okay."

[00:36:21] Brooke: She passes as a non junk food lover.

[00:36:25] Kaykay: That's right. Just as you know, I imagine Ann M was feeling pressure to pass.

[00:36:31] Brooke: Yeah. Agreed. Yeah, there's so there's so much that you can pick up from these books when you just like, the little throw away stuff and just like...

[00:36:41] Kaykay: It's the most interesting stuff sometimes.

[00:36:42] Brooke: It's the most interesting stuff. So like, you would know that as somebody who is a therapist, the sort of asides that come up in your conversations with clients, I'm sure are the ones where you're like, "Oh, okay. That's interesting." Because it's things that don't need to be there, but they're being brought into the conversation.

And it's the same thing for me as somebody with training in literary analysis and critique, it's the same thing in, in the written word. Like, the things that don't have to be there, that don't move the plot forward. There's a reason why they're there.

What is that reason? What is the message? Like every word, every bit of ink on a page is a communication. And so what are the patterns that you see that explain the motivation behind that communication and the message that you are meant to receive? If you read a book, you can be like a detective, you know? You really can be.

[00:37:38] Kaykay: Yeah. And also I can imagine that sometimes that can be challenging because you know, your push as an editor is to always have the spaces be sort of meaningful and conscious and, you know, depending on the author, that might be challenging.

[00:37:54] Brooke: Yeah. I would say it's not so much to be meaningful and conscious as is, what is the intended... look, books aren't written for the writer. I mean, the writer is always compelled to write because they have a message that they want to communicate, but that is not in and of itself the goal of any piece of literature. Of any form of communication, really. Like, if you're just trying to let something out, all you're doing is venting.

[00:38:25] Kaykay: Interesting.

[00:38:25] Brooke: You're meaning to have an effect on the person who is consuming what you are creating. And so the role of an editor is to say, is this contributing or taking away from your desired effect? So it doesn't have to be, like, I'm a huge fan of just random asides and absurdity. All of that, I love that shit. But it's, does it detract from your intended goal here? Does it detract from the message that your audience will receive? If it does, that's when you take it out.

[00:39:00] Kaykay: What a brilliant question. That would have been really useful to be posed to Ann M in this scene or a lot of these aside scenes. Right? Like, let's make the implicit explicit, and determine, is it helpful for the goal of your message?

[00:39:16] Brooke: And it makes me wonder again, just from experience, cause we're noticing the fatphobia, it feels like it's really coming out all of a sudden. Did you feel that way?

[00:39:26] Kaykay: Yes.

[00:39:26] Brooke: Where you're like, but that isn't something that lived in our world. Or if it did, it-

[00:39:31] Kaykay: Well it's funny, cause last time I was talking about how I felt it underneath. And then it became explicit and I was like, ah, okay, there it is. Thank you. It actually felt better to me when it got explicit.

[00:39:43] Brooke: That's a good way of putting it. Not that it doesn't live in our world, but it hasn't been explicitly stated to us. Why is it being explicitly stated to us right now? And it makes me wonder, has the editor lost some control and influence now that this book series has really taken off?

And also now that we know, like, Ann M's gonna be transitioning off pretty regularly really soon. She knows that. Is she just being obstinate and like, "Fuck it." And like, "No, I want it there." And that's there.

[00:40:11] Kaykay: Yeah. It also makes me think, you know, is it mirroring what's happening in the larger society? Which is, I mean, we could do like 25 podcasts on fatphobia in the eighties and the nineties, but you know, it really, I think, started to bloom in the eighties and hardened in the nineties, in this really intense way.

Where like, I dunno, I kinda feel like in the sixties and the seventies, certainly there was fatphobia, but it wasn't like this constant drum beat. It was more like, it didn't get talked about that much. Like, you could read a book from the sixties and authors are not like, "Oh, he was a fat fucking slob." You know, they'll be like, "Oh, he like a hefty guy," or whatever. There's not a lot of judgment in it.

And then later as you get through the eighties and nineties, this like hardening of hatred and bias against fat people starts to like really become the air that we breathe.

[00:41:00] Brooke: Yeah. I think the definition of fat changed. I think that's what you start to see. I mean, we are rapidly closing in, on heroin chic taking over. We are rapidly closing in on like the paragon of female beauty that is presented to us being like Kate Moss, who was known for being like 90 something pounds, right?

Whereas in the past it had been like, ooh, look like Marilyn Monroe, who let's be clear is not by any stretch of the imagination fat. Is still incredibly slim, far slimmer than the average. You know, people come out, "Oh, she was a size 12." Sizes were different back then. She was like a size six or something like that in today's equivalent. That is thin. But she looked like she ate a meal every once in a while, at least.

And she lifted weights. Like, Marilyn Monroe lifted weights. There's a lot of pictures of her lifting weights. Like she was actually super bad ass. Lifted weights, read books, like wrote all the time. Marilyn Monroe, her public perception did not reflect who she was in reality. But that's again, a whole other podcast.

But yeah, women are being told to whittle down. I mean, you've got, remember like the Dexatrim ads and stuff? Slim Fast...

[00:42:09] Kaykay: The eighties and the nineties were Ground Zero for this shit. And you know, I hope it's also interesting for readers of all ages. Because people in their late thirties and forties, you know, we lived through that and it shaped our minds in a lot of ways. And younger people, it shaped your parents' minds.

[00:42:27] Brooke: Yeah.

[00:42:28] Kaykay: You know, I've done a lot of body positive groups, like therapy groups ,and the things that come out of some of the parents of my kids' mouths? All I hear is the eighties. Because it's just, oh, it's so toxic. And the kids even know they're like, what the fuck is wrong with my mother? And it's like, this is what's wrong with your mother.

This is the poison we were drinking. And like, in asides. Nobody's coming out and saying fat people are bad, fat people deserve everything they fucking get. Right? It's like, just cruel hideous asides, which is even worse. Because if you were to come out and say, fat people are bad, they deserve whatever they fucking get, you could fight that.

[00:43:09] Brooke: Yeah.

[00:43:10] Kaykay: But it's just the asides of like, the assumptions of what our society values and what it doesn't value, is so insidious.

[00:43:18] Brooke: Right. It's why when people say stuff like, "Oh, it's just a joke. Why can't you take a joke?" It's because the jokes are more insidious than coming out and saying what the message behind the joke is.

You're using the joke as a cloak. Like, jokes that cause harm, I'm thinking of things like the Dave Chappelle stuff where it's just like, "Oh, you know, well, I'm just a comedian, blah, blah, blah." No, you're someone with a fucking platform. And you may use humor to communicate the messages of your platform, but you are a communicator. That is what you are.

It is not the method. The method does not define what you are. You know, it's just the way that you get your message across. And so it's wolf in sheep's clothing fucking bullshit when someone tries to hide behind, "It's just a joke." Fuck you.

[00:44:07] Kaykay: Because Dave Chappelle has also said, "I speak the truth. I just have to put it in a joke because I'm black." Which is a hundred percent valid, and supporting exactly what you're saying.

[00:44:19] Brooke: Right.

[00:44:20] Kaykay: Comedians are not like, peddling nonsense. They really kind of speak the truth in a lot of ways.

[00:44:25] Brooke: One of the reasons why I think it's so important to look at all forms of media, like, I'm not nearly as interested in like overt propaganda that is in your face as propaganda, or that is like trying to pass as news. Because I think people, their guards are up a little bit more for anything that is being presented as being anything other than entertainment.

The messages that you receive from your quote unquote "entertainment" are the ones that you internalize and you think it's your own thoughts. Because again, nobody has said this directly to me.

[00:45:01] Kaykay: Yes! Queen. Yes.

[00:45:02] Brooke: It's the message that you're like, you're getting what they're inferring to you. So you, you know what the message is. Right? But it's being communicated in a form of code. And so when you receive that message and you decode the message to translate it into a message in your head, you think that you thought it up yourself. You did not. You simply decoded the message.

And it's not recognizing that that is the method that is being used to plant ideas in your head that you might not otherwise take in if it was stated to you in plain language, that makes it so insidious. And so you have to be on alert for that at all times.

[00:45:48] Kaykay: You are getting to the crux of what most people are working through with their therapist, which we would call maladaptive cognitions. Concepts about yourself, others, and the world that you may or may not believe deep down, but somehow have just become the way your brain thinks.

And so sometimes you need a person to sit with you and say, whoa, what's behind that? What do you mean by that? What would it mean if that were true? And then you go deeper and deeper and deeper into, like, what is the thought that you've been given? Who gave you that thought? Do you agree with that thought?

And 90% of the time, you don't fucking agree with that thought. And it takes time to deprogram your brain from all this horseshit you got.

[00:46:32] Brooke: Particularly in like the age that we're in right now, where it's just, we have information coming at us at all times. There is never, there's just never a pause in messages that are being sent to our brains.

[00:46:45] Kaykay: For a purpose that is not our larger enlightenment or growth as human beings.

[00:46:51] Brooke: Yes. Again, everyone sit back and think. When you communicate, you always have a reason for communicating. There's something that you're trying to do. There's something you're trying to get across. Communication is an action with an intended result.

And it goes the same way for the people who are communicating to you, so choose your sources wisely.

[00:47:15] Kaykay: And I just want to put a little nugget of wisdom out there for listeners to close the circle on body image and body oppression. Someone said to me once, every time you feel bad about your body, think about who is profiting from that. That is like a fucking amazing tool.

[00:47:34] Brooke: Yeah.

[00:47:34] Kaykay: To always be thinking about, who is profiting from my feeling bad right now?

[00:47:38] Brooke: And apply that to everything. You need to do that with when you feel bad about your body. Every time you have a bad thought about a different race. Every time you have a bad thought about somebody of a different religion. Every time you have a bad thought about somebody of different gender or sexuality or anything. Who is profiting from that bad thought?

Because the fact of the matter is, we are social creatures. It is never good for us to be hating ourselves or each other. So why is that happening? Who makes money?

[00:48:14] Kaykay: I'm gonna throw in, when you're having a bad thought about someone of a different political party.

[00:48:18] Brooke: Yeah.

[00:48:19] Kaykay: Somebody is profiting from that. And it's probably not someone who is like, caring about you or democracy or your health.

[00:48:27] Brooke: Yes. And to be honest, that's been my biggest frustration in- ah... in uh, so many recent years, let's just put it that way. You see so many people who are so angry and they're voting in a certain way, and it makes me, I'm not, I'm not angry at them as much as I'm sad. Because it doesn't have to be that way.

[00:48:51] Kaykay: Yeah.

[00:48:51] Brooke: It's like, don't be manipulated. Like, we're not out to get you. Right? And it's like, I know that these are people that have been led astray, for the most part, by propaganda. And who think that they're doing the right thing, just perhaps need to be more critical of the messages that they're interpreting.

But I think if everybody could just stop and think, why does this person want me to feel this way?

[00:49:18] Kaykay: Yeah. And also a tool that they've taught us in therapy school. It's funny, I'm calling it therapy school.

[00:49:23] Brooke: I love that you're calling it therapy school. It makes me happy.

[00:49:26] Kaykay: Like trade school, you know? A really awesome tool that they taught us in therapy school, especially in regards to like racial sensitivities you might have or biases. It's so easy to always look outward and say, that person is thinking wrong or doing wrong. And the trick is always to put the light back on yourself and say, okay, what am I seeing that might be really valid, right? In terms of like this other person's psychology or how they're perceiving the world, and how am I doing the same thing?

Because we only have control over ourselves. And if we're constantly just always pointing and poking at others and being like, you're bad, you're wrong, instead of just bringing it constantly back to ourselves, like, okay, how do I live my values better? How do I be aware of, because we all have the same psychological biases and traps.

[00:50:17] Brooke: Totally.

[00:50:18] Kaykay: And so to me, when I learned that I was like, holy fuck. That's like the keys to the kingdom, right?

[00:50:25] Brooke: Yeah. That same vigilance, you have to apply it to yourself. You can't, you can't expect it of others if you don't do it yourself. And it's work!

[00:50:34] Kaykay: Yeah, it's funny you call it vigilance. I think of it more as opening.

[00:50:38] Brooke: To be clear, I meant vigilance in terms of, when you're receiving messages, being vigilant for-

[00:50:45] Kaykay: Like critical.

[00:50:46] Brooke: Yeah. Being vigilant about, what is the intended purpose here? Why, why is this message being sent to me? And you have to do it for, and like, be vigilant of yourself of, and how am I responding? Just like you said. And that leads to another thing that we talked about with Kristy and how Kristy demonstrates leadership, that should result in modeling. You need to be the model.

[00:51:08] Kaykay: Damn girl. Damn girl, that was an amazing bring back!

[00:51:13] Brooke: But it's true!

[00:51:14] Kaykay: We went so fucking deep! An amazing bring back. And yes, it is so fucking true. Say it again.

[00:51:19] Brooke: Modeling. You have to think critically about yourself and then you have to model that for others. And that leads to, I think what you said about that opening, right? That potential. Not just, "You need to think harder," you know? Show that you do it. Be the demonstration.

[00:51:36] Kaykay: What you said is so brilliant. That's exactly what Kristy did. Kristy saw something happening with her friends, and instead of being like, "You're wrong, do it like this, be better," she looked at herself and experienced a situation with some thoughtfulness and she modeled.

[00:51:51] Brooke: Yep. And she did the same thing when she had the conversation that long, deep conversation with Dawn at school. And Dawn says straight up, like, "I didn't know if you'd be willing to have this conversation with me, cause I know you're closer with Mary Anne than you are with me." But she's like, "No, you're my friends."

And you know, she had been there. So basically she's like taking the experience that she had, the struggles that Dawn was going through, she had gone through those same struggles herself. She loves and empathizes with both of her friends in this situation. And so she's just willing, she's willing to share.

She's not going to hold that back and only let Mary Anne benefit from that. She's going to let Dawn benefit from that.

[00:52:37] Kaykay: Kristy really shows up. She really shows up in this book.

[00:52:41] Brooke: Yeah. Modeling behavior, settling arguments with zero nonsense. Wasn't being harsh, was being fair. And then really serves as an advisor and a counselor to a friend who needs it. And that's the thing, she's not coming in, she says, she's like, "I figured you were having problems." She doesn't wedge herself in with like a, "Hey, I've got some advice to share with you." She waits for her friend to come and she's prepared herself for this.

So she's observing, she notices what's going on and she's more than happy to make the time and the space to be there to support people who could benefit from her experience. I know this book is primarily about Dawn and Mary Anne, but to me, Kristy is the hero of this book.

[00:53:24] Kaykay: Beautifully put, I could not agree more.

[00:53:27] Brooke: So I think I probably know the answer to this, but what did you have for what they were fighting in this book?

[00:53:32] Kaykay: I had that they were fighting to communicate primarily. And then there also was some fighting around, and it's funny, Richard even uses the words "loose" and "rigid" in terms of like how they run the household. They're trying to manage boundaries and family integration. And what they're kind of missing is an ability to communicate, to do that. What did you have?

[00:53:55] Brooke: I had something similar, I said, as usual change. I'm seeing the patterns, and this book series is really about, and I think it's a great example of empathy here. These books, this was aimed at kids who were probably, I would guess, between like eight and 12. These are prepubescent kids who are getting ready to undergo some significant change

[00:54:19] Kaykay: Definitely.

[00:54:19] Brooke: And, and so a lot of these books are about various changes that they will encounter in their lives, and how do you deal with it? I'm really appreciating that the more that we dive into the series.

So I had change, and I had control, which goes hand in hand with change. Mary Anne's dad is the control freak that we had always expected him to be, and Dawn's mom is the light hearted spontaneous, like whatever we've always known her to be.

[00:54:51] Kaykay: A will o' the wisp.

[00:54:53] Brooke: A will o' the wisp, exactly. So how that all comes together. And how to be yourself when conditions change, too. You know, how to adapt and compromise where you can while still holding true to who you are.

We see that in a few ways. I mean, Jeff calls that out explicitly by saying that, you know, he feels squeezed when his dad's girlfriend is over and that he feels like he can't really be himself, even though he seems to like her enough. It's just when you have had, and this is something that a lot of kids experience, like when you grow up in a household, if that household hasn't changed much, if the school that you go to hasn't changed much...

Now obviously I'm not describing all of the readership, but because kids are so young, it's much more likely that you'll be encountering a readership that hasn't experienced a ton of life changes as opposed to an older readership that has. So when you do start to have different people come into your life and into your space, how do you adapt without losing yourself?

And I think that that's something that all kids ultimately battle, even if they don't know that that's what's going on. And you see how they deal with it. Along with communication, as you've mentioned, they literally make space. Thank goodness Mary Anne takes the guestroom and makes it Mary Anne's room.

[00:56:17] Kaykay: That had to happen.

[00:56:19] Brooke: As we knew was gonna happen, based on the previous book. And then also compromise, you know, at the end, they're talking about, okay, Mary Anne and her dad will prepare their meals and you know, they'll do meal prep, both parts of the non-vegetarians and the vegetarians will do their own weekly meal prep, put a chore chart together and everything. So they're not just like, my way goes.

[00:56:41] Kaykay: A lot of compromise.

[00:56:42] Brooke: Right. Mary Anne's dad, get used to a mess. Dawn's mom, start eating bacon. That's not the path that they go down, because they wouldn't be happy. They talk about what's most important to each of them and they figure out how to bring that to the forefront. And that is another example of good modeling.

[00:56:59] Kaykay: I was going to say, it's beautiful modeling. And it's not super usual in a family system either, because what you mostly will see is more judgment. Like, "My way is the right way. It's bad to eat meat" or "Vegetarianism sucks." And then a sense of like, wanting to change your partner versus understanding that it's okay to have differences.

And you know, how do you compromise with those differences? Again, it's like a much more functional way to have a family versus what you often see in couples, which is just like, they're trying to kind of, you know, it's like, they, they love each other for who they are, or they did in the beginning. And then they try to change each other and then it's like, it leads to a lot of pain.

So it's really cool to see the modeling of a family that can not judge each other and just be like, Hey, we're different. Can we find a middle ground?

[00:57:48] Brooke: Yeah. This was a book that, uh, started off feeling like "Eh," and ended up in a much better place. So it's nice to see growth. We do get to see growth in this book, even if it's not perfect, even if Dawn has still gaslighted. Just talk to her! Just talk to her Dawn, what the hell.

[00:58:09] Kaykay: We don't quite get the lesson out of that, but that's all right.

[00:58:11] Brooke: No, no. Yeah, I think the lesson that you take away is it's completely unnecessary to use chicken bones when a conversation will do. You know what I mean?

[00:58:22] Kaykay: People that don't remember, what Dawn does is she basically decides that Mary Anne needs to move out of her room. And instead of talking to her about it, she scares her with, you know, like a scary sounds of the night tape and some props.

[00:58:34] Brooke: From the secret passage.

[00:58:36] Kaykay: Yeah. She goes into the secret passage and scares her so that Mary Anne doesn't wanna be in that room. Which is funny, cause I used to do that to all of my friends. I would bring a boom box with scary sounds of the night and like put it outside their window, but it was just all good fun. I wasn't trying to get them to move out.

[00:58:50] Brooke: It's a prank, as opposed to like, in lieu of conversation...

[00:58:54] Kaykay: A communication technique!

[00:58:55] Brooke: We'll terrify you and leave chicken bones on your bed.

[00:58:58] Kaykay: Right.

[00:58:59] Brooke: You know, so that you think the ghost is coming through and leaving bones on your bed. Terrorize you, as opposed to talking.

[00:59:07] Kaykay: Ann M didn't quite finish that circle.

[00:59:09] Brooke: The loop didn't get closed.

[00:59:10] Kaykay: Yeah, the loop did not get closed there.

[00:59:14] Brooke: Oh man. So what did you have for most nineties moments?

[00:59:18] Kaykay: Uh, parents saying, "This is not a restaurant, you're basically gonna eat what I make." Uh, that feels very like eighties, nineties, you know, I don't remember being able to set any food agendas in my home. It was just like, well, this is what it is.

[00:59:30] Brooke: The food agenda!

[00:59:32] Kaykay: No food agendas being taken from the children. No, no, no, no. And then, talking to an operator.

[00:59:38] Brooke: I have that too.

[00:59:39] Kaykay: Nice.

[00:59:39] Brooke: That was part of Dawn's prank, right?

[00:59:41] Kaykay: She called the operator.

[00:59:43] Brooke: Dawn pulls some like Mary Anne shit. Like when Mary Anne used to be like rigging Rube Goldberg devices to like fake out what she thought was the Phantom Caller. Here you get Dawn like pulling some Ferris Bueller style shit on Mary Anne.

[00:59:56] Kaykay: Yeah, she calls the operator and says, "I think my phone is broken. Can you call us back?" And then the operator calls back and then that's how she pretends she got a phone call.

[01:00:04] Brooke: Yeah. She's like, "That was the Pikes calling. They need me to come babysit. I'm going to be gone." So that was her cover story. The operator gave her her cover story while she was terrorizing Mary Anne from her passageway.

[01:00:15] Kaykay: And it made me think of, you know how you could like call and figure out the time? You know, probably younger people don't even know that was a thing, where you could call a number and it would be like, "At the sound of the tone, it is 9:05. Beep!"

[01:00:28] Brooke: Yeah. You could also call to find out the temperature too. Like all of these things, there were numbers that you knew. Like, I think it was like you had to call star one one or something like that.

[01:00:39] Kaykay: It was like the operator was the original Alexa. Just with more attitude.

[01:00:43] Brooke: That's all it is. Yeah, Alexa is just a modern operator, just given a fancy package.

[01:00:49] Kaykay: But you couldn't call the operator and get fart sounds.

[01:00:52] Brooke: Did you try?

[01:00:52] Kaykay: And I definitely tried.

[01:00:55] Brooke: Right. Okay. I'm the operator. I'm the operator, Baby Kaykay. Call me, try to get me to make fart sounds. I need to see your strategy.

[01:01:03] Kaykay: Oh, what would my strategy be? "My husband's having a heart attack, and the only thing that will revive him is fart sounds!"

[01:01:12] Brooke: [Unimpressive fart sounds.]

[01:01:17] Kaykay: Wait. We should do it opposite. You do the play, you do the request. It's gonna be good.

[01:01:23] Brooke: "Operator! Operator! My husband is dying in front of my face and the only thing that will save him is fart sounds!"

[01:01:27] Kaykay: [Impressive fart sounds.]

[01:01:32] Brooke: "Thank you, operator! You have saved his life. You're a hero!"

[01:01:36] Kaykay: "Have a lovely day."

[01:01:39] Brooke: Beep! "Also, PS, the time is now 12:59 PM." Aw, how helpful they were!

[01:01:46] Kaykay: Lovely. So what did you have?

[01:01:49] Brooke: I had the phone operators. I also had, you know, a willingness to wear a face mask to limit risk of exposure to pathogens without throwing a big fucking hissy fit about it.

The Pikes are all sick and, and I'm sorry, Pikes, if you're like basically running a little like infirmary ward at your house, you gotta bring in the big guns. Okay? You gotta bring in family members. People related to you are the ones who should be doing your laundry, serving you food. Fuck that shit.

[01:02:17] Kaykay: It don't make no sense..

[01:02:19] Brooke: Nope. And then I also had a fascination with fifties music. So the big battle that ends up resulting finally in Mary Anne being expelled from Dawn's room was they're working on homework and Dawn puts the radio on. Dawn wants to listen to music, says she can't work without it. Mary Anne says she can't work with it.

Who wins, does the music stay on or not? But she wants to listen, it's a fifties marathon that she catches on the radio and she's super excited about it.

[01:02:49] Kaykay: Wait. That's blowing my mind, cause that would be like nineties music today. That's how old we are.

[01:02:55] Brooke: Don't get me started.

[01:02:57] Kaykay: Cause like, didn't that music seem so fucking ancient to you back then?

[01:03:02] Brooke: Oh my God. The fifties, it felt like it was a long time ago. It did. But it was all over. Like, do you remember fifties music, like having a big revival?

[01:03:11] Kaykay: Definitely.

[01:03:11] Brooke: More in the late eighties. Just as stuff always comes around, you know, you get revivals based on generations. Like, when people who were young at the time the music was popular get into positions of power, when those people are finally able to control things like radio playlists from the time and stuff like that, songs that make it into movies, et cetera, they're pulling from their own nostalgia. And so that nostalgia gets revived for a new generation. And there was a huge fifties scene in the eighties and in the early nineties. One of my favorite songs as a kid was "Rockin' Robin." You know the song "Rockin' Robin"?

[01:03:49] Kaykay: Of course. "He rocks in the treetop all day long..."

[01:03:51] Brooke: Yeah. I think my first tape that I ever got, you know, pre Cocktail soundtrack. So that was my favorite tape, but my first tape was just a compilation of different 50s songs. And I just played it all the time. I knew 50s songs more than I knew 80s songs, you know, when I was a kid.

[01:04:08] Kaykay: Fresh! It wasn't Skid Row?

[01:04:10] Brooke: No, Skid Row would have been like scandalous music in my household. Actually on our previous playlist, so for the last episode, the January 1990 playlist, there is a song on there called "Swing the Mood" by Jive Bunny and the Mixmasters.

[01:04:27] Kaykay: Dope.

[01:04:27] Brooke: If you listen to it, I bet you'll remember it. They fuse together a bunch of songs from the forties and the fifties. So it uses Glenn Miller's "In the Mood," that like big band sort of swing song as the basis. And then they work in, they sample "The Twist," they sample, you know, different Elvis Presley songs, "Tutti Frutti," all of that gets worked in. So that's on her playlist and that was out like when this book was out. So that was actually very much of the moment, which I thought was cool.

And then, yeah, gaslighting being preferable to honest and open dialogue. That's still...

[01:05:06] Kaykay: Very nineties.

[01:05:06] Brooke: That's very much a nineties thing. Very eighties, very nineties, very 2000s, very today, but less so. People are more open, I think, to that.

[01:05:16] Kaykay: Yeah. And it's also, I think, you know the cool thing is that just like ideas of how to communicate and how to have maybe more open, honest relationships, it's more in the lexicon, right?

Like these terms like "processing," even the idea of going to a therapist, going to couples therapy, none of this was in the lexicon in the eighties and nineties. And now it's much more, I mean, you don't even hear the fucking term "mental health." It was not a thing! I mean, it's just like, there was, you know, people that were quote unquote "crazy," right? But like, you know, there's just so many things about human communication that wasn't there that is much more here in present.

[01:05:59] Brooke: Well, and that leads us into our next book pretty perfectly because our next book, the star of the show is the hero of this book. So that's Kristy. We get another Kristy book.

[01:06:10] Kaykay: Yay!

[01:06:10] Brooke: We haven't had a Kristy book in a long time.

[01:06:12] Kaykay: It's been a minute.

[01:06:13] Brooke: Yeah, it's been since Sudsy's carnival, you know, the Mother's Day surprise. That was the last time we got to hear directly from Kristy. So the next one is called Kristy and the Secret of Susan. So this is one that I am very fascinated to get your take on.

[01:06:31] Kaykay: The Secret of Susan?

[01:06:32] Brooke: Uh, huh. So I know what you're probably thinking. And unfortunately, Susan is not Kristy's secret girlfriend. Susan is a nonverbal child that Kristy babysits. It says straight up, and this is pretty, to me, it's pretty amazing to think about this in early 1990. It says straight up, "Susan is autistic."

[01:06:58] Kaykay: Mm, yeah. Incredible.

[01:07:02] Brooke: That word in the back cover copy. So I think this next book is going to be really interesting to look at, because obviously it's going to focus a lot on communication because it says, straight up, she's non-verbal. And we'll also, I'm sure, find some things that might feel not quite so fresh in the portrayal of it.

[01:07:24] Kaykay: A very diplomatic way to put it.

[01:07:26] Brooke: Yeah. So I have a suspicion that your therapeutic skills and expertise are going to be put to the test when you read the next book. And I am very excited to hear what you have to say about it when we talk about it.

[01:07:42] Kaykay: Can't wait.

[01:07:43] Brooke: But until then...

[01:07:46] Kaykay: Just keep sittin'. [theme song] "That's how the Brady bunch became the Bradys! Even though it's the same name, what the fuck does this mean?"