Transcript - BSFC #15: Little Miss Stoneybrook…and Dawn
Brooke Suchomel: 0:19
Welcome to the Baby-sitters Fight Club, where the first rule is, you don't talk about Fight Club. Instead you talk about the Baby-sitters Club series of books by Anne M. Martin. I'm Brooke Suchomel.
Kaykay Brady: 0:30
And I'm Kaykay Brady.
Brooke Suchomel: 0:32
And this week we are traveling back to August 1988. Normally I start with the music, but this month I have to start with the movies, because the movies were such garbage in August 1988. We're talking a month of, like, legendary garbage.
Kaykay Brady: 0:49
Legendary garbage! Hashtag legendary garbage. I need a T-shirt, I need a bumper sticker. I don't know, I really, that's resonating with me.
Brooke Suchomel: 0:58
The power of legendary garbage. So out this month was Mac and Me. Did you watch Mac and Me?
Kaykay Brady: 1:06
Okay, I have to look this up because is it an alien in a camper?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:10
It's an alien that hangs out with a boy in a wheelchair.
Kaykay Brady: 1:16
Yes!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:17
It's probably best known, currently, for one, being a giant commercial for McDonald's and Coca Cola. And apparently the Razzie Awards, you know how they do the Razzies that are like the anti Oscars? So the Razzie for like, Worst Performance by a New Actor went to Ronald McDonald this year for his role in Mac and Me.
Kaykay Brady: 1:41
Yes, I looked it up. I just put it in Google, and the first thing were YouTube videos that said, "Mac and Me - Runaway Wheelchair!" and the other clip is, "Mac and Me - Chased by Dogs!" That probably gives you immediately a sense of the caliber of this film.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:57
As I said, legendary garbage. This movie is so bad, that if you look up "worst movies of all time," and you go to an editorial on Rotten Tomatoes that they have called "Bad Movies - The 100 Worst Movies of All Time," this still from Mac and Me is the header image. So that came out this month, as did, and I've never heard of this movie, but when I saw it, I was like, holy shit, what was in the water in August 1988? Have you heard of a movie called Vibes?
Kaykay Brady: 2:31
No.
Brooke Suchomel: 2:32
Starring Cyndi Lauper.
Kaykay Brady: 2:34
Shut your face!
Brooke Suchomel: 2:38
This is why I had to start off with the movies this episode, because I was like, you're going to die, in a good way. So this movie is called Vibes. It starred Cyndi Lauper and Jeff Goldblum as two psychics with a "will they, won't they" dynamic who traveled to Ecuador to discover the source of psychic energy.
Kaykay Brady: 3:00
How do I not know about this? Why is this not taught to children in history class?
Brooke Suchomel: 3:08
So the LA Times review described it as quote "Romancing the Ghostbusters in the Temple of Doom." So that's what was going on in the movies. Mac and Me and Vibes.
Kaykay Brady: 3:20
So a real time for scholars and intellectuals.
Brooke Suchomel: 3:26
Indeed. But on TV, the first episode of Yo! MTV Raps aired August 6, 1988. The pilot was hosted by Run DMC, and if you look at what was going on in hip hop history, this was a foundational week in hip hop history. Because not only did you have Yo! MTV Raps premiering, but then you had albums from Eric B. & Rakim, Salt-N-Pepa, and NWA's Straight Outta Compton all came out that same week.
Kaykay Brady: 3:59
Wow!
Brooke Suchomel: 3:59
With Yo! MTV Raps, the first year you had the Saturday night version that was hosted by Fab 5 Freddy, and then the daily afternoon version with Dr. Dre and Ed Lover came around in 1989. And who do you think their first guest was?
Kaykay Brady: 4:14
Well, from your face, I'm guessing it's somebody super white. Am I on the right track?
Brooke Suchomel: 4:19
Yes. Yes, green light.
Kaykay Brady: 4:21
So it's somebody you would not imagine.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:24
Green light.
Kaykay Brady: 4:25
Debbie Gibson.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:26
Carole King.
Kaykay Brady: 4:27
Shut your... Carole. Fuckin'. King?
Brooke Suchomel: 4:36
Carole fuckin' King was the first guest on Yo! MTV Raps.
Kaykay Brady: 4:41
I wish our listeners could see, both of our faces are bright red, we're both crying. Did you watch this?
Brooke Suchomel: 4:50
I haven't found it. I'm trying to track it down.
Kaykay Brady: 4:52
Are you sure we aren't all being punked by Wikipedia?
Brooke Suchomel: 4:56
I'm positive. This has been cited in like, I've found four different articles that have confirmed this. And it's like, "Yes, this is true." Yes.
Kaykay Brady: 5:05
Here's what you had going on here. This is a guess, I'm shooting from the hip. You had an MTV executive who's, you know, managing the Yo! MTV Raps show and is like, "You know what?"
Brooke Suchomel: 5:16
Diversify our audience?
Kaykay Brady: 5:17
"You know who we need for our first guest? Carole King. I even know her!"
Brooke Suchomel: 5:21
"You know who the kids love these days? Carole King." It's actually better than that. So she was just at MTV that day. She was just at the soundstage. I can't remember if it was Ed Lover or Dr. Dre who spotted her. So this is in one of the oral histories that I read. And he was like, "Who is that?" And somebody's like, "It's Carole King." He's like, "Oh, would she talk to us on the stage?" And so she did.
Kaykay Brady: 5:47
Damn. Way to go!
Brooke Suchomel: 5:49
My respect for Carole King? Just through the frickin' stratosphere. For her to be like, "I'm curious about this. I'm going to see what's going on with this show." And then they're like, "Will you come sit on the stage and talk with us and be our first guest?" And she's like, "Sure!" Just totally spontaneous.
Kaykay Brady: 6:07
Carole King, way to go!
Brooke Suchomel: 6:09
I know. Mad respect for Carole King, even moreso than I had before. There's a fun little piece of trivia that you can pull out at parties.
Kaykay Brady: 6:19
That is such a special piece of trivia. I'm gonna cherish that until my dying day. I mean, I feel changed. I've been transformed.
Brooke Suchomel: 6:29
You felt the earth move under your feet when I dropped this bit of knowledge?
Kaykay Brady: 6:29
Yeah, I was trying to think of a way to work that in. You know, it's so funny. It's making me think how in the 80s and 90s, I mean, just crazy stuff could happen.
Brooke Suchomel: 6:38
Mm hmm.
Kaykay Brady: 6:42
You know, I feel like today things are very engineered and flawless, and you don't get as many surprises in mass media.
Brooke Suchomel: 6:50
Everything's so compartmentalized, you know? What were your music stations? You had MTV and VH1. VH1 is what your parents would watch if they watched any music station, and then MTV is what kids would watch. And now it's like you've got your own specific channel for everything. It's all so specialized, and so you wouldn't get Carole King just like...
Kaykay Brady: 7:15
On Yo! MTV Raps, yeah. I think it's totally that, and it's also just, all these things were so new and emerging that nobody kind of knew what it was yet. And so you did have these weird things where you had blendings of worlds or ideas of "let's put this and this together and see what happens!" That's the 80s.
Brooke Suchomel: 7:32
And sometimes you get magic, which they clearly did. So after all of that, the big songs are going to be a bit of a letdown. You had Steve Winwood's "Roll with It," and George Michael's "Monkey." And then, on theme for this particular book, Gloria Estefan's "1-2-3" was in the top 10, and that is some kid pageant music right there. So that's going to lead us right into the 15th Baby-sitters Club book, Little Miss Stoneybrook...and Dawn, which was released this month, and which was the very first Baby-sitters Club book that I bought and read. This was my entry into the series.
Kaykay Brady: 8:15
Oh wow!
Brooke Suchomel: 8:15
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 8:16
This is canon, folks.
Brooke Suchomel: 8:18
It was this book, and I'm sure we'll get into why. So that was released in August of 1988. And so it's time for some back cover copy, and I quote, "Dawn's a little jealous when there's a formal ceremony to welcome Jessi and Mallory into the Baby-sitters Club. Don't people know that Dawn's a special baby-sitter, too? Then it's Dawn's turn to shine. Mrs. Pike wants dawn to help prepare Margo and Claire for the Little Miss Stoneybrook contest. So what if Margo's only talent is peeling a banana with her feet? Dawn's going to help her charges win that contest any way she can. The only trouble is...Kristy, Mary Anne, and Claudia are helping Karen, Myriah, and Charlotte enter the contest, too. And nobody's sure whether the competition is fiercer at the pageant or at the Baby-sitters Club!" End quote. Something that struck me as I was rereading this book, and also obviously compiling the intro to this episode, is it seems to me like that back cover copy is incomplete.
Kaykay Brady: 9:28
Definitely incomplete.
Brooke Suchomel: 9:30
I was curious in your take, Kaykay. What did you feel was sort of the overarching story to this book? Did it strike you as a book that's about pageants or did it strike you as something that's about something more?
Kaykay Brady: 9:47
Yeah, it definitely was about something more. I mean, just to get right to what I thought they were fighting, because it kind of hits the themes. It seemed like they were fighting each other instead of fighting oppressive power systems. And that's both in the pageant and with Jeff and Dawn, because Jeff wants to go back to California and Dawn is kind of mad at him.
Brooke Suchomel: 10:13
It was surprising that that was left off, there was no indication about that storyline, because to me that's actually the biggest storyline of the book.
Kaykay Brady: 10:22
Yeah. I mean, it felt almost like the Little Miss Stoneybrook was entertainment or throw away.
Brooke Suchomel: 10:29
It was the yard sale.
Kaykay Brady: 10:31
It was totally the yard sale, yet again. Sort of a remnant of capitalism letting them escape their woes. But yeah, definitely, and it felt like, wouldn't this have been sort of a more interesting book had there been more Jeff and Dawn? I don't know. What did you think?
Brooke Suchomel: 10:47
Yeah. I mean, I think that, you're right that they're fighting each other. I almost saw that competition as the tool that they were using though to fight what I thought was the ultimate driver, which was insecurity. They're all feeling very insecure. I went and I broke it down, and each character I was like, holy shit, they all have their own motivation here, that all ties back to feeling insecure about their position. It seemed to me like the competition was a tool for them to prove to themselves and to others that their insecurities are unwarranted. You know, looking for validation as a means of solving their problem. But validation never solves your problem.
Kaykay Brady: 11:32
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 11:32
You know? You've got this story of Jeff, Dawn's brother, who has been, over the past several books, we know that he's unhappy. He's been acting out, particularly after Dawn and Jeff went and visited their father over the summer. And he's really been quite violent, actually, in the way that he's been acting out. In this book, the thing that ultimately ends up convincing their mom to send him back to California to live with their dad is he gives a kid in his class a black eye for the second time.
Kaykay Brady: 11:51
Been there.
Brooke Suchomel: 12:14
This was all your strategy to go to California?
Kaykay Brady: 12:17
Nobody sent me to California, though.
Brooke Suchomel: 12:18
You just kept punching people until you finally made your way out west?
Kaykay Brady: 12:23
That's about right.
Brooke Suchomel: 12:25
Well I'm glad it worked out for all of us.
Kaykay Brady: 12:26
You know, you're describing the book that I wish I had read, but I feel like she didn't quite get there. It seems like the end conclusion was, "Oh, this pageant is stupid, because the wrong girl won."
Brooke Suchomel: 12:40
Mm hmm.
Kaykay Brady: 12:41
I don't know, that's not quite anywhere to me.
Brooke Suchomel: 12:45
I mean, it's definitely in the subtext. So this is where I landed after making my way through all of the threads and separating them, kind of fanning them out a little bit and seeing what's underneath and kind of looking at the way that everything unfolded. Because the very first time that the pageant is brought up, it is roundly dismissed by everybody in the club, with two exceptions. Dawn is kind of ambivalent about it because her mom entered her in a prettiest baby pageant when she was a kid, and she won. And so she's like, "Oh, well, you know, it can be okay."
Kaykay Brady: 13:23
And did she get a bond for that?
Brooke Suchomel: 13:25
I'm sorry, who wants to win this pageant if the first prize is a $100 savings bond, but the second prize is a shopping spree at a toy store? I will take second place, thank you very much. So Myriah Perkins actually came out ahead. But Mary Anne is the only one who like, outright defends the pageants.
Kaykay Brady: 13:49
So interesting.
Brooke Suchomel: 13:51
On page 25, she says, "I can see how it might be glamorous to be up on stage in a fancy dress." And this is coming from the girl who ran crying from the room when somebody brought out a birthday cake that she didn't know was coming. So it's like, she sees it as the ability to be seen in a way that she's afraid to be seen, but clearly she wants to, deep down. And so, you know, I think the fact that she is actually the biggest apologist for the concept of pageants in general is indicative of her insecurity. Because it's like the opposite, her justification for it is the opposite of what we know that she's comfortable with.
Kaykay Brady: 14:38
Yeah, and somehow it's a representation of this sort of ideal sense of self that she wants to be. The sort of polar opposite of what she actually feels that she is now.
Brooke Suchomel: 14:47
Yeah, because we've heard her say that in previous books, where she says, "When Stacey enters a room, she makes a sensation. I wish I could make a sensation." It is interesting that we don't get Stacey, I mean, Stacey appears in this book, mostly through her absence and people talking about how much they miss her, which again goes to what I think Claudia's insecurity is, because she's feeling very lonely without her. You know, it's her best friend, she said it's the first best friend she's ever had, and Charlotte's really missing her too. So it's a way for them to sort of channel their pain through this competition that neither of them actually want or believe in, but it's like a bonding experience for them to sort of...
Kaykay Brady: 15:25
Try.
Brooke Suchomel: 15:26
Yeah, through the person that they both miss. It seems like Stacey would probably be the one that would be the person who would be most on top of playing pageant mom.
Kaykay Brady: 15:37
And pulling together these amazing outfits or a good number for the talent. You could see Stacey doing all of that really well.
Brooke Suchomel: 15:44
Right. And you would think that Claudia, you know, you know that Claudia is very focused on appearances. But she's the first one to say like, pageants are sexist. They're garbage. Every single one calls it out explicitly as sexist, except for...
Kaykay Brady: 15:59
Yeah, although isn't it Mallory and Jessi that really have the strongest voice on that?
Brooke Suchomel: 16:03
Yeah. So they're the ones that refuse to have anything to do with it. They're the ones that are able to actually stay most true to themselves, because I think the reason why they are able to do that is the other girls, with the exception of Mary Anne, who is not anti from the beginning, and Dawn, who is ambivalent, but not pro pageant. But Dawn is also not the one that chooses to get involved, right? She's the first one that gets looped into this pageantry, and it's because the littlest Pike sisters, Margo and Claire, see it. They want to get involved. They're the ones that actually make the conscious decision to participate in this. And their mom calls and asks for Dawn to help them with it, because she's so busy volunteering with the library. She can't, you know, just kind of like such a, "Oh, you guys want to participate in a pageant? Sure, Dawn'll do it."
Kaykay Brady: 17:03
Yeah, that's an interesting read on it. I was wondering also, if there was something the author was saying about different waves of feminism.
Brooke Suchomel: 17:13
Possibly! They're younger.
Kaykay Brady: 17:15
Exactly. And I just was really struck by that. Because, as a therapist, seeing younger women, younger cis women, it's like, holy crap, the way their minds work. I'm like, I am so inundated by patriarchy. It's in my soul. And they're just so much freer of it.
Brooke Suchomel: 17:34
Well, they see it for what it is because it's been called out. Like, it wasn't the soup that they didn't know that they were swimming in. They are the ones that are like, "You boiling frogs are in soup."
Kaykay Brady: 17:44
Correct. Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 17:45
"I don't want to get in that pot with you."
Kaykay Brady: 17:47
Yeah. So I thought it was really cool that it was the younger kids, and I wondered if, whether conscious or unconscious, it was sort of the way that oppressed groups eventually move towards enlightenment, you know, and sometimes that's very generational.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:04
To that point, just sort of jumping ahead for a second but it ties directly to this, one of my Most 80s Moments was that everyone has watched Miss America on TV.
Kaykay Brady: 18:13
Yeah, great point!
Brooke Suchomel: 18:14
Like, everyone in this book has seen it. So even Karen, and these girls that are participating in this pageant are five to eight years old, that's the age bracket, and every one of these girls has seen it. Even the boys, like even the Pike boys know the Miss America theme. You know, they've seen it.
Kaykay Brady: 18:33
Well that's where the drag queens come from. Like, thank God for that. Okay, I'm hating that sound until I think about drag queen boys. And I'm like, oh, I'm so glad they had Miss America to watch.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:43
But that's the thing. It's like, it's the subversion.
Kaykay Brady: 18:46
Right. Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:47
It's that subversion. It's like, we will take this, but we will flip it because it's all about this sort of gendered role that you're expected to play. What if somebody who is not within that, you know, prescribed gender inserts themselves into that paradigm? You have just flipped that paradigm on its head. So like that, can totally get behind. Did you ever watch an pageants on TV? Not that you would necessarily seek it out, but like, do you remember them being on TV?
Kaykay Brady: 19:14
I totally remember them being on TV. And I feel like my family watched it together.
Brooke Suchomel: 19:18
Yeah, it was like an event.
Kaykay Brady: 19:20
Yeah, it was an event. Exactly right. And I'm just trying to imagine like, you know, fat little dykey me, what was I making of that? I can't even begin to understand what I was making of that.
Brooke Suchomel: 19:33
So do you have any sort of emotional connections any way or another, like, do you remember having any feelings toward them?
Kaykay Brady: 19:42
I mean, I think it just was confusion and a sense of big disconnect. You know, when I was younger, anytime something was super gendered, I just, it was like I was watching animals in a zoo. I can't explain it. It's like I just had no connection.
Brooke Suchomel: 19:59
I mean, that's spot on.
Kaykay Brady: 20:00
Yeah. But I was just like, look at these, I mean, and I didn't know I was gay. But it was like, look at these straight people. What the fuck are they doing? That's kind of more what I remember. It didn't like hurt me personally or anything. I remember my sister being in a pageant up in the Irish Alps, which is fucking frightening because they did have sort of like a bikini, it was they were just in their bathing suits with this whole pageant and I'm sure middle aged men were judging it. I think somebody asked me if I was gonna do it, and I just laughed. I was like, "What?"
Brooke Suchomel: 20:30
You were like, "Yeah, my talent is skeet shooting."
Kaykay Brady: 20:36
And punching faces. "My talent is giving black eyes. Sure I'll do this." But I remember just being like, "What? No!" And then I remember my sister doing it, and it was really painful for her. Because she didn't win, and then, you know, she felt ugly. And this hot cousin of ours won, who was really hot, but not very smart. And my sister's like, I mean, she's one of the smartest people I've ever known. So I remember for her just being like, wow, that was really hard and painful. But personally, I don't have any connection to it.
Brooke Suchomel: 21:10
Except that it felt like it was something that was not for you.
Kaykay Brady: 21:13
Definitely. Something I couldn't make a connection to if I tried. How about you?
Brooke Suchomel: 21:20
I had a very different response to it, which is why this was my first Baby-sitters Club book. It's so frickin' funny, and it's something that I'm unpacking in my brain right now as I'm talking about it, that this book series that I see to be so foundational to who I am today, that helped me form the sense of self that I have. This book series that I find to be deeply feminist in a lot of ways, not to say that it isn't problematic. You know, we certainly discuss the problematic parts of this series. I mean, it was in the 80s. Freaking everything was problematic.
Kaykay Brady: 22:02
Yeah. In the context of the time, I think you would say it was deeply feminist.
Brooke Suchomel: 22:05
Yeah, in the context of the time, it was really revolutionary. And the thing that actually drew me to this was we used to get pageant advertisements in the mail.
Kaykay Brady: 22:16
What?
Brooke Suchomel: 22:17
They would come in the mail. Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 22:19
Like drugstore coupons? Like that?
Brooke Suchomel: 22:21
No, flyers. Brochures. Like, specific glossy…
Kaykay Brady: 22:21
Oh, like, "Join this pageant, ages blah blah blah..."
Brooke Suchomel: 22:28
Yeah, exactly. That would come in the mail, and I remember the messages that were being sent by these pageants, which were basically, "We're going to define what the ideal version of being a girl and into a woman is. This is how you can get venerated in American society. We're going to celebrate those who are beautiful and poised."
Kaykay Brady: 22:56
Spewing nonsense they don't really believe.
Brooke Suchomel: 22:58
Right, which I love that that gets called out in this book.
Kaykay Brady: 22:58
It was beautiful.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:01
Yeah. And who calls it out? Kristy. Just tells you a little something there. You know, she sees through the shit, but she goes along with it too, and so I think that that ties back to her insecurities. But I always wanted to be what society told me that I was supposed to be. I didn't want to not fit in. And I grew up in a family of homecoming queens. You know, my mom was a homecoming queen, her sisters were homecoming queens.
Kaykay Brady: 23:28
Wow, what a lot of pressure.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:29
I wanted to be that perfect girl, but I wasn't. I'm not. I don't shut up, you know? And I can't not speak my mind.
Kaykay Brady: 23:40
Yeah, you certainly don't spew platitudes with no thought behind it. That's about the opposite of what I would say.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:46
So for me, it was trying to understand how to bridge that divide, and I would have been willing to just sort of, you know, erase myself if I had to. If that's what it took to fit in. But it just wouldn't work. So thankfully, my mom was never like, you know, I'd be like, "Mom, I wanna be in the pageant!" She was just like, "No."
Kaykay Brady: 24:03
Yes!
Brooke Suchomel: 24:06
So thankfully for that, you know, I don't know, I'm sure a lot of it...
Kaykay Brady: 24:10
Where do you think her ability to protect you like that came from?
Brooke Suchomel: 24:13
She wasn't a pageant girl.
Kaykay Brady: 24:14
I see.
Brooke Suchomel: 24:15
You know, it was just, it's homecoming queen. It's like, "Are you the most popular girl in school?" That's what homecoming queen is.
Kaykay Brady: 24:20
Right, you don't have to join that and actively seek the brass ring. That's just something that happens in high school naturally. Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 24:26
Yeah. And like, the pageant world was all a fucking scam. And I think she saw that immediately, because it's like, you've got to get sponsorships, which is basically just, "Give us money. Find people to give us money." And you have to do all of this stuff. And so for me, it was like...
Kaykay Brady: 24:44
Jesus! Sorry, this is crashing over me right now, about how fucked up that is.
Brooke Suchomel: 24:49
Totally. Like, she didn't have time for that shit!
Kaykay Brady: 24:51
It's like, "Literally pay us for your own oppression."
Brooke Suchomel: 24:54
That's what it is.
Kaykay Brady: 24:56
"Cis straight women, here you go."
Brooke Suchomel: 24:57
Totally. And I remember, like, they would advertise on the radio. There was a lot of this. I don't know if you saw much of this in New York.
Kaykay Brady: 25:05
Almost none. There just was no pageant scene in New York City. Well, maybe there was, but we were not connected to it.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:11
Well, not even just pageants, but also modeling. You'd hear on the radio advertisements for like, "Come be a model!" And I think it's because I'm sure they focus on these suburban areas in flyover country where you get a lot of people who want out.
Kaykay Brady: 25:30
Interesting.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:31
Who have visions of a better bigger life for themselves, but don't have any idea of how to actually make that happen.
Kaykay Brady: 25:38
Yeah, no access to it.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:40
No, and your society in these communities is built on, you are born in the place where your parents were born, you will die in this place, things don't change. Like, if you move an hour away, that is a big deal, you know? And so I think it's an industry that really preys on the dreams of people who aspire to something bigger or different. So I think that they probably target, I would assume they target areas. I mean, that's why you would get a lot of small town pageant girls, because it's like, "What can I do? How can I get out of this area?" And you don't have many examples of people who got out with their intelligence and their wit and their resourcefulness.
Kaykay Brady: 26:25
Yeah. And, you know, the 80s is so close to the 70s and the 60s, where, you know, women really didn't have access to education, either.
Brooke Suchomel: 26:33
And as that changed, it was also like, it was still like, you weren't...
Kaykay Brady: 26:37
Getting an MRS degree?
Brooke Suchomel: 26:39
Yeah. Or you weren't, like, celebrated for your intelligence. I mean, that was, I think, to me, that was the big struggle that I had is I was intelligent, and frankly, very, very bored in school all the time. And so I would act out because I was so freaking bored, and nobody likes that. Your teachers don't like that, your other students don't like that, so it was like my intelligence was a hindrance to me. I would often think, "I wish I wasn't so smart." You know?
Kaykay Brady: 27:11
Oh, you were like a working dog that was stuck in an apartment.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:16
I totally was.
Kaykay Brady: 27:17
You were a husky.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:18
Yeah, I was a husky or a collie in a studio apartment. And so then I was like, okay, so then what else is there? This is what is celebrated, right? This is what you see locally celebrated, you see people being celebrated for being beautiful. And like, pageants is where you can get that sort of validation of like, "Yes, you're the best at something." And I was very competitive, and so, you know, that was something. But I never would have been like, I mean, I never would've won a frickin' pageant. Are you kidding me? So it was just one of those things that, "I wish that I could be that girl." And so this book appealed to me because I thought it was a book about girls in pageants, and I wanted to learn about that. And I read it, and then I was like, "Wait, this is great!" So this was my entry point into the Baby-sitters Club. And then I went back and I got, obviously, the first book, and then I would get it every single month. And thank god, this book isn't the book that I thought it was. Thank god.
Kaykay Brady: 28:11
I'm having in my brain, just like this alternate reality is spinning out in my brain. If Brooke had picked up a book that encouraged her to do pageants, you'd be like a cokehead alcoholic in Vegas right now.
Brooke Suchomel: 28:25
100%. Absolutely. No, that would be bad. Yeah, no, no, that would have been bad.
Kaykay Brady: 28:31
I'm just imagining the road. The road that you may have taken. So the Baby-sitters Club put you on this path.
Brooke Suchomel: 28:38
Right, saved my life. Ann M. Martin just saved my life. The Little Miss Stoneybrook pageant being ridiculous saved my life.
Kaykay Brady: 28:47
You know, the things you're talking about are so insightful, and really point to the way that a lot of money making operations very intelligently sort of figure out a way to appeal to little kids' needs and the way that they don't feel seen. They don't feel appreciated. They don't feel like they fit in, they want something bigger and better for their life. And, you know, it's really easy to manipulate that. And I think the pageant system, because it was also bolstered by this sort of TV presence, really cornered the market on a really insidious version of that for a long time.
Brooke Suchomel: 29:24
Oh, totally. Because like you said, like, your family would watch it. It was an event. So it's like, everyone across the country will see you and will validate you. You will be validated by everyone, not just in your community, but in your nation, and how powerful that feels. But then you're not thinking of like, well, you're being validated for celebrating the patriarchy that is causing you to feel this sense of isolation in the first place, right? So I think your point is so good about how people's biggest fears and their pain, that is how you can motivate...
Kaykay Brady: 30:01
Oh yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:01
You can get people to do anything if you're like, "I will help you overcome this fear, I will take this pain away." People will do anything for that.
Kaykay Brady: 30:11
Yeah, before I became a therapist, I was in business, and I was in marketing and I was in sales. And if you do any of these sales trainings, you know, Six Sigma, or whatever, you know, there's a whole bunch of different ones.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:23
Flashbacks. I'm having flashbacks.
Kaykay Brady: 30:25
Yeah. But a lot of them, you know, when they're talking about motivation, it's very clearly stated, "Never motivate someone with hope or positiveness. Motivate people through fear and anxiety. That's how you get a sale. That's how you get a sale!"
Brooke Suchomel: 30:41
And like, your marketing plan will literally start with "What are the pain points." Like, the word "pain points," that is a phrase that you will say every single day in business.
Kaykay Brady: 30:54
And I'm gonna get fired up, but who cares? I'm going. And it just goes to show the way that capitalism has taught us all to like, especially these days, hate our bodies, right? Especially women, cis women, if you get women hating your bodies, you can sell them so much fucking shit and they will actively participate in their own oppression. And the place where they are supposed to be the most at home in this world becomes their greatest battleground and their greatest enemy. So the fucking diet industry, the wellness industry, pharmaceuticals, makeup, holy shit, if you could add up all of the industries that are targeting women for their fear and their anxiety. The aging industry...
Brooke Suchomel: 31:38
Industry in general.
Kaykay Brady: 31:40
It's like trillions. It's like this economy runs on it. It's fucking insane.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:44
And so part of that is you have to keep people in pain.
Kaykay Brady: 31:48
Yeah. Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:49
Cuz if they're not in pain anymore, than they're not gonna need your solution to the pain, right? So it's just this cycle of pain and purchase, and pain and purchase, and pain and purchase.
Kaykay Brady: 31:58
"Pain and purchase," did you make that up?
Brooke Suchomel: 32:00
Yeah, I mean, but that's what it is, right? Like, that's the cycle that we're in. And it certainly is the way that, historically, women have been targeted.
Kaykay Brady: 32:10
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 32:10
Because when a group is oppressed, then you have a clear understanding, if you're oppressing them in specific ways, it makes your marketing easier. Because you know how to create products that will target their pain. But you get it in other ways, too. I mean, if you look at a lot of, you know, the fear mongering that cycles all the time, like, you have people listening to just insane conspiracy theories that are being pumped into their head 24-7 so that people can sell them survivalist packages and supplements. Again, it's like, "We're going to make you afraid of everything. We're going to make you afraid of the world. Because the more things that you're afraid of, the more that we can sell you."
Kaykay Brady: 32:55
So true.
Brooke Suchomel: 32:56
And it's just so unbelievably oppressive. And, you know, I think in some ways people are seeing that. I mean, obviously, the pageant industry is like, in the US, when was the last time you heard anybody giving a shit about Miss America?
Kaykay Brady: 33:11
I don't even know, do they even happen?
Brooke Suchomel: 33:13
I think they still have them, but it's not like, "Miss America Pageant is on NBC or whatever tonight and everybody's gonna gather around and watch it."
Kaykay Brady: 33:21
Certainly not in Berkeley, California.
Brooke Suchomel: 33:23
I mean, even back in like, I can't think of anybody in Iowa even talking about like, it's just not...like, who cares?
Kaykay Brady: 33:29
No, it's not news. It's not part of the zeitgeist anymore.
Brooke Suchomel: 33:32
And they've had to change things. Because people are like, "Yeah, we see what you're doing with the 'come strut out here in your bikini.'"
Kaykay Brady: 33:41
In a fucking bikini and heels? I mean, sorry, I don't understand heels on every level.
Brooke Suchomel: 33:47
Yeah, it's crazy.
Kaykay Brady: 33:49
I truly...it's like, you're literally gonna make a segment of the population walk on stilts, so that they're uncomfortable, they can't run away.
Brooke Suchomel: 33:56
They can't go fast.
Kaykay Brady: 33:57
They can't defend themselves.
Brooke Suchomel: 33:58
Yep.
Kaykay Brady: 33:59
And like, they will do it willingly. This is again, where, you know, the queer person is like, "What is happening?"
Brooke Suchomel: 34:06
No, the straight person is also like, "Oh, fuck heels." Fuck heels. But things have just evolved, right? It's like, there's just been a shift of the way that people are...
Kaykay Brady: 34:18
And pretty fast, I would say.
Brooke Suchomel: 34:19
Yeah, but it's evolved, I think, to your point, into like, so it's like Wellness now, right? Which is just a rebranding of the diet industry.
Kaykay Brady: 34:29
Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 34:30
In a lot of ways, like, Wellness with a capital W is not truly wellness.
Kaykay Brady: 34:35
The other thing about wellness that I've been thinking about a lot recently is the way that it makes you obsess about yourself, rather than thinking about helping others or thinking about how you might have an impact on this world. It's just like, "Oh, no, we're all just people who are sitting around thinking about how we become perfect versions of ourselves." It's really narcissistic, and it's really disconnected from any sense of community or giving back. The sort of fearmongering on the right, the wellness and diet industry on the left, they both do that, right? They sort of put forward this personal paradigm of responsibility so that we can all ignore what we sort of owe to each other in a social context.
Brooke Suchomel: 35:19
Exactly. It is a way for the power structures that are creating the situation in which we feel powerless in the first place to continue to maintain their power, because they tell you, "Well no, it's all about you." I mean, it's the same thing where it's like the whole America bootstraps mentality which is absolute bullshit. Like, "If you're struggling, it's because you're not working hard enough. Work harder."
Kaykay Brady: 35:41
Yes!
Brooke Suchomel: 35:42
And it's like, first of all, you don't understand the meaning behind the idiom, because the whole point of the idiom is that you can't pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. The point of the idiom is that it is a pointless endeavor, that you need help from other people. And people have just sort of manipulated it into meaning the opposite of what it actually means. But also, even if that was true, well, if I don't have any boots, your bootstraps don't do anything for me, right?
Kaykay Brady: 36:09
Word.
Brooke Suchomel: 36:10
So it's a way of pushing off the problem, the core root of things, onto the people who actually have the least ability to change it, and to effectively give a pass to those who are creating the problem in the first place.
Kaykay Brady: 36:26
Not only give a pass, pat them on the back and make them feel special. So you're privileged in a million different ways, right? You're on top, you have power, you look the way that you're "supposed" to look, your sexuality is "correct." Okay, now you have all those things because you're so morally upright, right? So in fact, you not only get a pass, you're amazing! You, you made this life for yourself, you made this body for yourself, you know?
Brooke Suchomel: 36:53
That's why I love hearing people back in Iowa, so I'm just going to go there, go on and on about what people who are from Central American countries who are fleeing violence, what they should be doing. "You just need to stay there." And so it's like, okay, what the hell did you do to be born into comfort? So much of what we have is just an accident of birth, like, you didn't earn shit.
Kaykay Brady: 37:17
Let me blow your mind. According to the World Health Organization, can you guess what percentage of health is under your control? Throw out a guess.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:26
Oh, god. I mean, we're talking environmental health as well as physical health and genetics and all of that?
Kaykay Brady: 37:35
Meaning like, one person died at 20, one person died at 90. So everything you can imagine, what percentage is under their control?
Brooke Suchomel: 37:42
I would guess 10, 20%?
Kaykay Brady: 37:44
Correct.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:45
All right!
Kaykay Brady: 37:46
10 to 20%. But guess what capitalism will tell you?
Brooke Suchomel: 37:52
Oh my god, 100%. 90 to 100%.
Kaykay Brady: 37:55
Correct. So they can sell you shit, right? So if you're poor, it's your problem. You got health issues, it's your problem.
Brooke Suchomel: 38:03
Right, this is why we have GoFundMe instead of having actual health care. It's like, "Hey, it's on you. Everybody for themselves." And that's just not how anything works.
Kaykay Brady: 38:13
But everything we're talking about is sort of where I started with what I was seeing in the pageant in this book. So in other words, I was seeing just a lot of infighting, and a lot of targeting other people. Targeting your peers, targeting your friends, to kind of attain that thing you were describing, which is basically the feeling of specialness. So it felt like the individuals were being blamed in the book, and maybe a little by the author.
Brooke Suchomel: 38:42
Yeah, so I think in the book, for sure. I think that's what the girls are doing, for sure. I mean, when I went through and I was like, Okay, why are they using competition as a tool for this insecurity that they're feeling, when in the past, they have been so collaborative?" I think it makes sense that you would have these girls competing with one another when you put them in the context of a pageant, which is all about girls competing with one another to be best girl, right?
Kaykay Brady: 39:09
Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:10
So it's funny that you don't see any male characters in this book, except for Jeff, who is leaving to go be with those dad. So it's like, you have the father-son off on one coast and the mother-daughter on another coast. And you see a lot of codependency and that mother-daughter relationship. I mean, to the point that like, that's something that we've talked about a lot, but like, it is explicitly named in this book.
Kaykay Brady: 39:40
Yeah, I saw that too!
Brooke Suchomel: 39:41
Explicitly named.
Kaykay Brady: 39:43
Yeah, that was where I, you know, my therapist hat was saying, oh, codependency and enmeshment, and a lack of hierarchies in this family system.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:54
Right. Where Dawn explicitly says to her mom, "Sometimes I feel more like your sister than your daughter." Her mom responds, "Funny, I feel more like your sister than your mother," which just goes to show like, well then who's the mother? This is a child who needs guidance and support and feeling like she's not at the top of the hierarchy in her household having to figure out her mom's problems. We see that her mom calls the Baby-sitters Club during a meeting for no reason, just to ask a question, and Dawn's like, "She didn't need to call, she must be feeling really lonely."
Kaykay Brady: 40:27
The mother is capitalism.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:30
Well, I think the mother is the one who, in the world where I went down the pageant track and ended up a coked out mess in Vegas, you know, perhaps this is Dawn's mom's variation of that. Like, she's a mess, her life is a mess, she doesn't know how to handle it. She doesn't even know how to really take charge of it. And Jeff's teacher calls and is basically like, "I think your son needs to see a therapist," And it's like, "No, we'll just send him to California, because that's what he wants. Because he says that everything will be fine if he goes to California, so we'll do that instead."
Kaykay Brady: 41:07
Yeah, I'm so curious how the book's gonna handle this, how the series is going to handle this. So far, it seems like that's going to be true. That's what we saw in this book, that Jeff seems good, he seems happier. You know, he and his dad are going to football games and doing male stuff.
Brooke Suchomel: 41:22
While they have a housekeeper who cooks and cleans. So there's a lot unspoken in this book about the patriarchy, and the effects of the patriarchy on not just the women who are othered by it, but also Jeff. He can't handle being in a place where it's him and two women. He can't handle it. It's like, "No, I gotta go back to my dad, I gotta go back to my, I'm just gonna keep punching until you let me go live with my dad. I have to get away and be in a malecentric environment." I think that a lot of the commentary in this book comes from what's not said. I think that's the case in almost every piece of literature. The things that are most powerful and most interesting are in the things that are not explicitly stated, but are inferred. And I think that there is a way that it does get close to explicitly stated. I mean, she explicitly gives commentary on pageants and why pageants are bullshit. I don't think anybody could read this and say, Ann M. Martin, big fan of pageants.
Kaykay Brady: 42:29
No, and the way she handles it is very artful because she brings in different voices. So you have, again, Mallory and Jessi, the younger kids who bring what might be a lot of our immediate reaction to the forefront, right from the jump to say, "This is bullshit, I can't believe you're even touching that, ugh, gross," you know, what most of us might think. And then you have other characters that are taking a more nuanced approach to it, or are not sure, or have to learn that for themselves. And so it's really smart, because if she had come guns blazing with "pageants are horseshit," first of all, she would have never brought Brooke on board. Case in point! So the fact that she brings you on board is part of her genius, right? The way that she handles this is really smart.
Brooke Suchomel: 43:19
Right. I mean, I do think that it was good that the moment that the pageant is introduced, you have Claudia saying, "Sexist."
Kaykay Brady: 43:26
Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 43:27
The moment it's introduced. And then you have ambivalence from Dawn, then you have "sexist" from Kristy, then you have, "Oh, no, no, I can totally see the benefit of this" from Mary Anne. So it's like back and forth, and back and forth. And then you've got the two new ones coming in, Mallory and Jessi, both being like, "Oh fuck pageants. The four of you are gonna fight out your battles via a pageant? We're not doing that."
Kaykay Brady: 43:55
Yeah. And what you say is such a great point, because it speaks to the way that sometimes targeted groups are assumed to have one opinion and one voice on a topic. And we get to see in this really rich detail, that this targeted group, cis women, they all have a different take on this. This is complicated. This is growing, this is changing, right? We're not a monolith that has one opinion. And I think that's genius.
Brooke Suchomel: 44:24
And you see, the way that they interact with their charges that they get involved, with the exception of Dawn, each of the other girls, Kristy, Mary Anne, and Claudia, enlist other girls to participate in the pageant.
Kaykay Brady: 44:39
So true.
Brooke Suchomel: 44:40
They recruit. And why are they doing that? Because they feel insecure about their position in the Baby-sitters Club, which is changing.
Kaykay Brady: 44:47
So it's an MLM. That's what we have here.
Brooke Suchomel: 44:52
But you've got Dawn just sort of falling into it. And the reason why their sensitivities are so heightened by this is because the very first chapter is all about inducting Jessi and Mallory into the Baby-sitters Club. And so it is like, okay, we were a club of, you know, initially it was four and then it was five, and then it was four again, and now it's gonna be six. And so there's all of this sort of expansion and contracting. And Dawn is feeling particularly sensitive about it, because she's like, "Well, nobody gave me a ceremony when I came in." Even though it's just like, "Put your hands on the notebook and say, like, 'I heretofore am inducted into the Baby-sitters Club." But that in and of itself, the fact that that is a ceremony, it's like there's a sense of pageantry there, right? That she feels is missing, that she didn't get to participate in. And then Claudia gets a specific call from Mrs. Johanssen because Charlotte really misses Stacey, so specifically wants Claudia to babysit for her because Claudia was closest to Stacey, and that's against the rules of the Baby-sitters Club.
Kaykay Brady: 46:02
And, to your point, creates a lot of insecurity.
Brooke Suchomel: 46:04
Exactly.
Kaykay Brady: 46:05
In all of them.
Brooke Suchomel: 46:06
So Claudia has been singled out and everybody's back goes up immediately, except for the two new girls who don't understand why that's against the rules. And so then it's like sniping at Mallory for not knowing that that's against the rules. So things are unsettled. And then Dawn is explicitly recruited to help the Pike kids participate in the pageant because she lives close by. And so you've had two of the Baby-sitters Club get singled out, so they have been chosen by their customers who all of them want to be seen in high esteem. So it's like, "Well, Mrs. Johanssen likes Claudia best. Mrs. Pike likes Dawn best." So they're all feeling very insecure. And so I think it's interesting that the next one who goes out and recruits somebody is Kristy. Kristy, who is like "fuck pageants" for 8 million reasons. I think we all understand that she's like, "Why would anybody want to do this," right? She's like, "This is my club." Claudia was singled out. And we see that she's really irritated that Claudia was singled out. She's like, "So how was your special sitting job, Claudia?" And then Dawn was singled out. So it's like, "Okay, well, now I'm going to be special too."
Kaykay Brady: 47:17
Yeah, what you're saying, or what I'm hearing, is that their insecurities are sort of overriding their values in that moment.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:24
Exactly. Exactly. And it's like, "Okay, well, I want to be the best, too," and so then Mary Anne is like, "Okay, well, if everybody else is doing it, I see the value. I've always wanted to cause a sensation. I've never felt comfortable doing it myself. I am sitting here babysitting Myriah Perkins, who is showing that she's really talented at singing and dancing. Okay, I can live vicariously through her." And then Claudia is the only one without somebody in it besides Mallory and Jessi, who are just like, "Oh, hell no." And they're not as entrenched in the Baby-sitters Club, so they wouldn't feel as close to being singled out, probably wouldn't feel as sensitive to it, especially since they have each other. And so Claudia enlists Charlotte, who is most like, "I don't want to do this." The other girls just have to have a seed planted. And they're like, "Yeah, we'll do it." And Charlotte's like, "No, I'd rather just stay home and read," and she's like, "Well, you can read on stage," and then Charlotte pulls Mary Anne and runs crying from- Mary Anne or a Me. I felt very in tune with Charlotte. She's like, "No, I'd rather cry in the bathroom than be forced to lip sync 'You're in Love' on stage."
Kaykay Brady: 48:38
I thought of you. And you know, what's interesting is that in the little Dear Reader at the end, the author says that she'd never been in a pageant herself, and if she did, she would have been like Charlotte Johanssen.
Brooke Suchomel: 48:49
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 48:50
Which makes sense.
Brooke Suchomel: 48:51
Totally. She has said that she identifies most with Mary Anne, so that makes sense. So you've got all of these girls sort of like fighting out their own internal battles by externalizing it and making it a competition with other girls because they're the ones that they're closest to. And so that is another tool of the patriarchy, like pageants in and of themselves, women competing with each other to be held up as the most valued individual woman. Like, what is the equivalent of that for men? Running for president or something?
Kaykay Brady: 49:24
I'm thinking sports, but no, because you get to be on a whole team. The whole idea of sports foments loyalty to each other and a sense of camaraderie.
Brooke Suchomel: 49:33
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 49:34
I can't think of another...
Brooke Suchomel: 49:36
Or even in a, you know, individual, like a track event or something like that, you win by exerting power. You win by doing something. Like, you have done it yourself. It's not that you have been judged. It's not that you have been chosen. There is a clear metric, and you met that metric and you met it better than anybody else, like, there's no gray there.
Kaykay Brady: 50:01
Yeah. You're blowing my mind, and I just gonna say it because it feels related to me. I was researching investment stuff, and I was looking at all these YouTube videos. All the YouTube videos on money investment are like 20 year old white dudes, and I'm thinking, wow, these guys have so much time on their hands to think about money and investments. And then I'm like, what are women doing? And I'm like, oh, women are dieting and engaged in the wellness industry. Right? So like, what you're saying about the women are stuck in this pageant, validating themselves as a beaut- like, literally, the point is to be a beautiful woman, right? That is explicitly known and expressed, although there's other shit that's supposed to be important in there that maybe it is or maybe it isn't.
Brooke Suchomel: 50:41
Spout platitudes that you are fed. You know what they want to hear, so you're simply repeating what they want to hear, but don't have an actual thought.
Kaykay Brady: 50:49
So it's like, while the women are doing this horseshit, the men are outside achieving.
Brooke Suchomel: 50:53
Yep, exactly. And so you see the fact that she writes this character of Sabrina Bouvier, which...
Kaykay Brady: 51:00
"Moon river, wider than a mile..."
Brooke Suchomel: 51:07
But you're actually on key and that's the problem, is that...
Kaykay Brady: 51:10
Was she not?
Brooke Suchomel: 51:10
No, they said that she sounded terrible. So they make a point of that, that she can't sing, but she comes out all dolled up like Audrey Hepburn.
Kaykay Brady: 51:20
Yeah, it's the outside package, man.
Brooke Suchomel: 51:22
Exactly. And she's got a ton of makeup on her face. They're like, she looks like she's like 25 years old. She has the responses memorized that they want to hear. She's the one that when the other girls are, you know, they're nervous, she's like, "Let me tell you how to overcome the pageant jitters." She's the one that's actually going around to other girls participating in this and helping them be better at playing this game. So ultimately, it just goes to show that none of what these girls are doing, that are trying to like be themselves in any way... So we've got Myriah who's like, Ann M. Martin makes it clear she's actually really talented. She's a very good dancer. She's really good at it, she loves doing it, right?
Kaykay Brady: 52:08
She's a triple threat..
Brooke Suchomel: 52:09
She's a triple threat. So this is right up her alley. You've got Karen just like, being Karen, doing her Karen thing. Kind of wilding out, but like, doesn't seem like she's taking it all that seriously. She's just playing Let's All Come In on a grand stage, basically.
Kaykay Brady: 52:22
Although she does sort of cry at the end. She really takes it hard.
Brooke Suchomel: 52:25
She does. She does. You know, she's young, and this is new to her. I think she's used to like, playing and fantasizing on her own terms. And now it's like she's being judged for the way that she performs, and that's got to be really hard. Right? That's got to be kind of a breaking of her innocence.
Kaykay Brady: 52:45
Yeah, a cold shower, for sure.
Brooke Suchomel: 52:46
Yeah, definitely. Then you've got the Pike girls, who are like, this is their idea. I think if anybody is participating in this pageant on their own terms, it's them.
Kaykay Brady: 52:51
What were their talents again?
Brooke Suchomel: 52:59
So Margo had peeling a banana with her feet while reciting the poem, "This is the House that Jack Built."
Kaykay Brady: 53:07
Which is so funny, because the whole time I thought it was the Aretha Franklin song. So I was like, they're singing Aretha Franklin? That sounds cool.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:16
And then you've got Claire who does the "I'm Popeye the sailor man, I live in a garbage can" song.
Kaykay Brady: 53:22
Claire should've joined the Cursing Club!
Brooke Suchomel: 53:23
I was gonna ask if she would have been allowed to join.
Kaykay Brady: 53:27
I mean, you got to bring something a little better than that. That's weak shit.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:30
She did it wearing a sailor costume and punctuated with different gestures and facial expressions, like she made a Reader's Theater performance out of it.
Kaykay Brady: 53:39
"Reader's Theater performance." I'm open to it. Or you know, five year old me, six year old me would have been. Not if I heard you'd been in a pageant though. No. That probably would have got you immediate expulsion from the Cursing Club.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:52
It's like the equivalent of coming into Miss America and saying like, "Yes, I am not a virgin." For you to be like, "I've been in a pageant" is the disqualifying, it's like it's turning it on its head completely.
Kaykay Brady: 54:05
Correct.
Brooke Suchomel: 54:05
So, you know, the girls that are trying to be girls and who are ultimately, when they're asking questions and are responding as five to eight year old girls would versus, you know, "What would you do if you could give something to everybody? Would it be global peace?" "Global peace" comes up time and time again. That's Sabrina Bouvier. She's the one that knows how the game is played, along with Kristy. So Kristy is the one who is like, "You can't give the honest answers. Not if you want to win." You know, because when Kristy gets focused, if she wants to win something, she's gonna want to win, right? She's very competitive.
Kaykay Brady: 54:41
Yeah, Kristy's very clear about why she's doing this. Kristy does not have any, she doesn't seem tempted by the trappings of feminine markers of beauty, right? Kristy doesn't seem tempted by that. But Kristy is extremely tempted by just the success and the competition. She's really competitive, so she can see the game and sort of respect the game in a weird way that the others that are really sort of personally attached, and their own sort of feminine identity is at play, are going to be really kind of in a trance in a way that Kristy is not going to be. But it's so interesting that I feel like the author at the end, you know, Bouvier is sort of seen as "well, she's the problem" or something. I think the moral of the story is, "Don't be like that shithead," which I'm like, is that really the moral of the story? I'm not sure.
Brooke Suchomel: 55:36
Yeah, I mean, I think the way that at the end, it's like, "Look who won, we know who should have won," right? Everybody's like "Myriah should have won." She was really talented and all that. And Dawn responds, "I was thinking the same thing. I don't know what this pageant judged, but it sure wasn't talent and character." And Mallory responds, "It was fake personality." And it says, too, earlier, she says, "Mary Anne is right. Myriah should have won, if this pageant was honestly based on people's talents and character, but it wasn't."
Kaykay Brady: 56:09
Well, we don't know anything about her character. All we know is what she is showing through the eyes of our characters, right? So it's like, she's playing the game better than anybody else, and like, who knows how she is deep down inside? We just don't know. So I guess that's what I mean, is like, there's sort of an assumption there that that's all that Bouvier is.
Brooke Suchomel: 56:34
I don't see it as much as, like, that she is the problem as it is the pageant itself. Like, the construct creates that problem. Yeah. That it forces you to not be yourself and to play by the rules that they want you to play by. And this book is ultimately an indictment of the patriarchy.
Kaykay Brady: 56:51
Yeah, for sure.
Brooke Suchomel: 56:51
Nothing that any of the girls have done through the entire book matters, because the patriarchy validates and rewards those that uphold it.
Kaykay Brady: 57:00
I guess I would love to see a book where Bouvier joins the Baby-sitters Club and drops pageants. I'm loving using this word "Bouvier." Maybe I need to like name a cat Bouvier.
Brooke Suchomel: 57:09
Such a Bouvier. A cat that howls off tune.
Kaykay Brady: 57:14
Get outta here with that Bouvier shit!
Brooke Suchomel: 57:14
Just a beautiful cat with no pitch.
Kaykay Brady: 57:17
That sings "Moon River."
Brooke Suchomel: 57:19
Is a Bouvier. What did you have for Most 80s Moments, besides patriarchal bullshit?
Kaykay Brady: 57:26
I had, other than savings bonds, which was so 80s. I mean, I had savings bonds. I think I got savings bonds for my First Holy Communion. Also, local newspapers.
Brooke Suchomel: 57:38
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 57:39
Very 80s, doesn't really exist anymore.
Brooke Suchomel: 57:41
Everybody hover over the crime report.
Kaykay Brady: 57:43
Crime Beat. And then, Annie. One of the kids, I can't remember who, sings "The sun will come out tomorrow."
Brooke Suchomel: 57:48
Myriah, yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 57:49
And it just reminded me of what a phenomenon Annie was in the 80s and the 90s.
Brooke Suchomel: 57:56
Did you have an Annie window of your life? An Annie period? Or was it like a lifelong thing?
Kaykay Brady: 58:02
I mean, I'm still in my Annie period. Let's get real. You know, Annie was obviously something I could relate to. She's kind of like a scrappy, foul mouth redhead that's sort of living on the streets with a dog.
Brooke Suchomel: 58:16
Yeah, you felt seen.
Kaykay Brady: 58:17
It's just so much I can relate, yeah. And like, when you see the movie, she's clearly some sort of New York City street rat, you know, probably an Irish street rat. And then Miss Hannigan is obviously like an Irish drunk. So yeah, Annie's world, I was like, Oh, this is just the world. Is this special? It was the same when I read A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. I was like, Oh, this is my family. Is there something unique about this? Why am I reading about my family?
Brooke Suchomel: 58:44
Yeah, that's awesome.
Kaykay Brady: 58:45
What are your thoughts about Annie?
Brooke Suchomel: 58:47
Oh, I loved Annie. I was watching something the other day and a commercial for the original Annie came on. We were watching something vintage and they had a commercial for the movie, like the airing that was on TV. And I was telling my husband how I went through probably a year or two where like, Annie was my jam. We had recorded Annie from TV, it had aired on TV and so we recorded it, because this was back when VHS tapes were like 50, 60 bucks.
Kaykay Brady: 59:17
If you go back, Pepper? Total dyke. Baby dyke, 100%.
Brooke Suchomel: 59:21
I was actually saying I need to go back and watch it again, because I haven't watched it since probably I was like eight or nine years old when I had my Annie phase.
Kaykay Brady: 59:29
It really stands the test of time. And when I watched it again, I realized I had such a crush on Grace. Oh my gosh, when I watched Annie again. I was like, Oh, this was like my first love.
Brooke Suchomel: 59:42
Oh, that's beautiful.
Kaykay Brady: 59:44
I know.
Brooke Suchomel: 59:45
Yeah, I had that, and I had the Miss America phenomenon, and then also gum chains.
Kaykay Brady: 59:51
Oh, gum chains.
Brooke Suchomel: 59:52
With the gum wrappers, when you would like fold...basically just the act of like finding things, whether it's gum wrappers or string, and making jewelry out of it.
Kaykay Brady: 1:00:02
That's called not having a phone.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:04
Yes, absolutely.
Kaykay Brady: 1:00:05
You needed something to do. You know, you can't be playing Minecraft all day, so there you have it.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:11
In this book we see Mallory and Jessi making gum chains on the floor of Claudia's bedroom. And one of them, Jessi, is going to have her very own book with the very next book.
Kaykay Brady: 1:00:25
Oh, I'm looking forward to that.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:26
Yeah, cuz we haven't, you know, Jessi was introduced back in book 14, and then she wasn't a character in the Super Special. She's barely in this book after she's gotten inducted, but then they want nothing to do, rightfully so, with the pageant, so you don't see her as much. But she's going to be the star, the protagonist, of the next book, which is Jessi's Secret Language, and it's all about one of her new charges who is deaf. We will be focusing on that in the next book, which I am excited to explore with you, Kaykay.
Kaykay Brady: 1:01:00
Me too, my friend.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:02
But until then...
Kaykay Brady: 1:01:04
Just keep sittin'. [THEME SONG] Carole King, way to go!
