Transcript - BSFC #16: Jessi’s Secret Language
Brooke Suchomel: 0:18
Welcome to the Baby-sitters Fight Club, where the first rule is you don't talk about Fight Club. Instead, you talk about the battles fought and the lessons learned in the Baby-sitters Club series of books by Ann M. Martin. I'm Brooke Suchomel, an editor who's revisiting these books after 30 years.
Kaykay Brady: 0:35
And I'm Kaykay Brady. I'm a therapist, and I'm a total noob.
Brooke Suchomel: 0:40
Total noob. We love your noobdom. Well this episode, we're going to be discussing Book 16, Jessi's Secret Language, which was published in September 1988. So as we always do, let's start out by putting this book into historical context with a little pop culture history from September 1988. So the music at that time, the number one songs were Guns N' Roses, "Sweet Child O' Mine," which was their only number one single. That was kicked off the charts by, and I told you we will be talking a lot about Cocktail in the coming months, Bobby McFarrin, "Don't Worry, Be Happy." This was the month that it hit number one.
Kaykay Brady: 1:18
Oh, was that on the Cocktail soundtrack?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:19
It was! "Don't Worry, Be Happy" was so freakin huge. Do you remember? It was on all the goddamn time.
Kaykay Brady: 1:27
It was on T shirts. It was on coffee mugs. I mean, it was just an utter sensation.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:32
It was a philosophy.
Kaykay Brady: 1:33
It was a philosophy of life. I had a night shirt, oh my god, I can't believe this is coming back to me! I had a fucking night shirt, and it was a giant smiley face and it said "Don't Worry, Be Happy," and the smiley face had a bullet hole. That's what I slept in for years.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:52
So that's actually perfect. Because if you actually listen to the words of the song, that's kind of the vibe of the song.
Kaykay Brady: 2:01
It's kind of bleak.
Brooke Suchomel: 2:02
Yeah. It's a bleak song. When I hear that song, I take it as total sarcasm. Literally, the lyrics are, you have no bed, there's no place to lay your head. The landlord's kicking you out of your house. It's basically about the futility of being like, "Oh, be happy."
Kaykay Brady: 2:20
Well, and it's not lost on me that it's a person of color singing, and white people are like, "Yeah! Don't worry, be happy!"
Brooke Suchomel: 2:27
Okay, so here's the best part. As I was doing some research- George H.W. Bush made it his campaign song without clearing it.
Kaykay Brady: 2:35
Why do they constantly do this? Sure.
Brooke Suchomel: 2:37
Bobby McFerrin told him to fuck off. George H.W. Bush wanted Bobby McFerrin to go on the campaign trail with him. So after Bobby McFerrin was like, "Fuck off, I don't endorse this guy," George H.W. Bush's team was like, "Oh, just come along on the campaign trail with us." They thought that that was some sort of generous offer. So there was an article in The New York Times about it, and this is the line from Bush's spokesperson that I was like, this sums up frickin Republican politicians, particularly of this variety, where his campaign person says, "Bush loves this song. He plays it in his limousine all the time."
Kaykay Brady: 3:15
Damn. Damn.
Brooke Suchomel: 3:19
It's like, that doesn't help you! You're, like, so frickin clueless. And so Bobby McFerrin didn't even weigh in, in this New York Times article. One of the spokespeople for him said basically, like, "Yeah, did you hear that line?" So there's a little picture of September '88, because obviously, you know, the November 1988 election, it was down to Bush and Dukakis. In September '88, it was all about the presidential election, and so that's going to tie into the popular culture of the time. And I just found this to be a delightful exercise in irony, reading about "Don't Worry, Be Happy."
Kaykay Brady: 4:00
And I'm so glad to hear that my night shirt was right on and I didn't even know it.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:04
It really was. Other notable songs that month that will be on the playlist that we always put together on Spotify, and on YouTube so that you can see the music videos, we also had Robert Palmer's Simply Irresistible. So those classic videos...
Kaykay Brady: 4:19
It was a fierce fucking video, no question. This was shocking in the 80s, they had women actually playing instruments. Well, they had some women that really couldn't play, obviously, and then they have one guitarist who was just shredding like a motherfucker.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:33
Yes!
Kaykay Brady: 4:34
But then they didn't show her face, so...
Brooke Suchomel: 4:36
Correct. You know the right video, that is perfect. Because the Addicted to Love video was similar, but had nobody...like, they had somebody on set that was there to teach the models that they were using, just something that could roughly approximate fingering. And it said the person ended up just walking off set and leaving, because nobody was picking it up.
Kaykay Brady: 5:00
That's so fantastic! Because I can remember, I mean, it's burned into my brain, especially the
Brooke Suchomel: 5:03
It's Rowlf the Muppet. It's just, like, hands model that's playing the keyboards. I feel like you have to work hard to fuck up approximating playing keyboards, but it's like her hands aren't bending. I don't know. flying. Just like, "This is what you do, right? Hand goes up, hand goes down. Hand goes up, hand goes down. That's how you play the piano."
Kaykay Brady: 5:25
Oh, don't get me started. This is what drives me crazy. When people in movies, especially dudes in movies, play drums, and they're not drummers, they're just like fucking Animal from the Muppet Show. They don't use their wrists. And like, drums are all about the wrist. Which is gonna tie into this book, man, because this book had me thinking of an amazing movie I just saw, Sound of Metal, which is about a drummer who loses his hearing.
Brooke Suchomel: 5:48
Yeah, this is a deep one. Kind of takes me back to book 14 on Hello, Mallory. Like, you get into some real issues in this book. So yeah, that's a good link back to the "Simply Irresistible" video and authenticity and representation.
Kaykay Brady: 6:02
The link is models can't play music, hands not moving, drummers pounding like Animal. It's a direct line.
Brooke Suchomel: 6:08
Yeah, totally.
Kaykay Brady: 6:09
God, this is like turning into a coke talk. You know? Where you're just like, "Oh, everything's connected! God! Think about this, and that, hahhh!" You do it til 5 AM. Coke talk.
Brooke Suchomel: 6:19
This is like the good alternative to like, okay, for some people, coke talk is like, tuning into Alex Jones. And this is a healthier version. This will actually help you synthesize things, as opposed to make you frickin crazy. So yeah, I noticed that in the "Simply Irresistible" video, they focus in on this woman just shredding, to be like, "Okay, we heard you. Give the public what they want."
Kaykay Brady: 6:45
I remember it well.
Brooke Suchomel: 6:46
So that's what we had for music in September '88. Movies, not a whole lot was going on. Frankly, the only movie that came out in September '88 that I had any impression of whatsoever was Gorillas in the Mist.
Kaykay Brady: 6:59
Sigourney Weaver?
Brooke Suchomel: 7:00
Yeah. Sigourney Weaver and apes. That came out in September of '88.
Kaykay Brady: 7:05
Is that the back cover copy? "Sigourney Weaver. Apes."
Brooke Suchomel: 7:09
That was the elevator pitch.
Kaykay Brady: 7:10
Enough said. End of story.
Brooke Suchomel: 7:13
"Sigourney Weaver, apes, murder. Gorillas in the Mist." With TV, I was expecting to see a lot, because September is usually such a big month for TV, when all of the new shows and new seasons come out. But the Writers Guild of America went on strike from March 7 through August 7, so the '88-'89 TV season was pushed out largely to late October, early November. But people didn't notice that the TV was delayed as much, because this was the Summer Olympics in Seoul. So they actually took place in September, not earlier in the summer. Did the Seoul Summer Olympics make any impression on you as a kid?
Kaykay Brady: 7:56
I don't think so. You?
Brooke Suchomel: 7:58
The one that I remember the most was Greg Louganis. Do you remember him, the diver?
Kaykay Brady: 8:02
Oh yeah, of course. Is this where he busted his head open?
Brooke Suchomel: 8:04
This is the Olympics he busted his head open in a preliminary, cracked his head open on the diving board. He ended up going on to win two gold medals. But people didn't know this at the time, for obvious reasons, because it was the 80s, he had actually been diagnosed with HIV six months earlier. He was just completely panicked when he hit his head and went into the water, because we knew so little about HIV and AIDS transmission at that time, and he was just like, "Oh my god, there's blood in the water," and said he was just completely sick to his stomach. And of course, he couldn't talk about it to anybody, you know, because he wasn't out. He didn't come out as gay or HIV positive until the mid 90s. I thought that this was really beautiful and poignant, he actually had a farewell birthday party in 1993. He was like, "This is going to be my last birthday," and so got everybody together. He is still alive and kickin today.
Kaykay Brady: 9:05
It was sort of like the first flush of AIDS, and so many gay folks died and then AZT came out. It was like the next wave of folks were waiting to die, and then AZT came out and it was like a miracle. And a lot of those people did not die.
Brooke Suchomel: 9:21
That was exactly it. He had actually started on AZT. So he was diagnosed at a time when you could get diagnosed, and like obviously, if you had the resources, you could get on AZT. So he got on AZT. It took a while for, and I'm by no means an expert on this, but the sort of cocktails that have been put together and the way that they make people, you know, the quality of life that they have has been improved so dramatically over the years. So that's why they said, in '93, even though he had been on AZT like right from diagnosis, and had been on it for years, his health was still so poor that he thought he was going to die. Because it wasn't the sort of treatments that are available today. Yeah, I mean, just being in that generation, like you said, where it's like you're in between the generation where it was like an immediate death sentence, to where you know that like, we can manage this. That generation in between, that was a long time. I remember even in the mid 90s, HIV was something that I was always terrified of, coming up as a as a teenager and a young adult in the 90s, even. So it's beautiful to see the people that are living with it and thriving, so good on ya, Greg Louganis.
Kaykay Brady: 10:40
Yay!
Brooke Suchomel: 10:40
So this was the world in which the 16th book in the core Baby-sitters Club series, Jessi's Secret Language, was released. So it's time for some back cover copy, and I quote, "Jessi knows a secret language! She learned it from Matt Braddock, the Baby-sitters' newest charge. Matt's been deaf since birth, and he uses sign language to speak. Since Jessi's Matt's babysitter, she has to use sign language too. Soon all of the kids in Stoneybrook want to learn to sign...which keeps the Baby-sitters busy. Jessi's the busiest of all. She's working on another super secret, just for Matt. Will Jessi be able to keep the secret and pull off her special event? Of course she will -- she's a member of the Baby-sitters Club!" End quote. So we mentioned earlier that this is a super special book, even more so than the last Super Special, like the Super Special that we came off of a couple episodes ago.
Kaykay Brady: 11:38
The Not-So-Super Special?
Brooke Suchomel: 11:39
It was super special in its format and its setting, but in terms of like, the meat that you take away from it, the lessons that there are to be learned, wasn't as rich as a book like this. This, I found there was a lot of empathy and emotion wrapped up in this book. So Kaykay, what was your takeaway? You're like, "Oh!" You seem excited.
Kaykay Brady: 12:04
I feel like today, we should switch it up, and I should ask you, what was your experience of this book? Because I can sort of see by what you're saying, and how you're saying it, that you're excited, and you took a lot out of it.
Brooke Suchomel: 12:17
I did.
Kaykay Brady: 12:17
So yeah, tell me, tell me.
Brooke Suchomel: 12:20
I'm just gonna jump right into what they're fighting.
Kaykay Brady: 12:22
Do it. Dive like Greg Louganis.
Brooke Suchomel: 12:24
Right, I'm just gonna dive in, I'm gonna try not to hit my head on the way down. But to me, this was a book that was all about how to cope with the alienation that you might feel if you have any sort of divergence from dominant culture.
Kaykay Brady: 12:42
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 12:43
That's what they were fighting, right? All of the main characters in this book. It focuses on this boy, Matt, who is deaf, who is completely non hearing and was born that way, and so he's never had that experience of being a hearing person living in a hearing world. And then how that, not just how it affects him, but also how it affects his family. A focus on his sister, and how his sister feels alienated because her brother is not hearing. And so again, they're like, living in a world that is not built for them. And then you get the same thing with Jessi. So their babysitter is Jessi, who is the only black person in her class, who is one of just a few black kids in her entire school, her neighborhood is completely 100% white. And they address that in this book. When Jessi is introduced in book 14, it's coming from the perspective of Mallory. And so Mallory kind of gives you indications, but you don't hear directly from Jessi, like from her head, right? You don't get any narration from Jessi. So this is the first time we get direct narration from Jessi on what it's like to be not a part of the dominant culture, and for it to be very clear to you that you're not a part. That culture makes it evident to you that you don't fit in. And I thought it was just really beautiful how it showed that the tool that they use to fight that is that they are looking for shared experiences, and they are learning how to communicate in an inclusive way, trying to see their similarities and appreciate their differences and find that linkage from one another. So I thought that this book, the whole reason why we have this podcast is because I was really looking for a way to find more empathy in what felt like an increasingly unempathetic world. And I feel like in this book, the characters are doing the same thing. So I just thought it was really beautiful in that way. So that's why my face is all like, "I love this book so much!"
Kaykay Brady: 14:47
Oh, I'm so glad. I'm so glad you went for the dive. It's a 10. A 10 out of 10, didn't hit your head at all.
Brooke Suchomel: 14:54
My head is intact, there's no blood. I'm good. I'm good.
Kaykay Brady: 14:57
Yeah. I took similar things out of this book, and I would say they were fighting both sort of the intolerance and the oppression of the dominant world. Just the way that the world is completely built for the dominant culture, and the way that lack of accommodations are basically hostile. You know, it's a real hostile experience being somebody in a marginalized identity that's doesn't fit into that world, and I thought she did such a beautiful job of showing what that experience is like. So for example, Jessi is a ballerina. And one of the subplots is that she's doing this show, and she's the star of the show. And she's got a friend who's a ballerina, who also has a deaf sister, and nobody in the family signs at all, or reads lips or anything like that. And so the deaf sister is just sort of left to her own devices when she's home.
Brooke Suchomel: 15:52
And they literally ship her off to Massachusetts, right? Like, "Go over there, you can't fit in here."
Kaykay Brady: 15:57
Yeah, "Go to this school." So that's an example of the way that the lack of accommodation is basically outright hostility.
Brooke Suchomel: 16:05
Absolutely.
Kaykay Brady: 16:06
And I thought it was really well done.
Brooke Suchomel: 16:08
It's great that you point out that you see this reflected in another member of the ballet class. The girl, they ended up being kind of friends at the end, but like, Jessi and this girl, I think her name is Katie Beth, with the deaf sister, they actually aren't friends at the beginning.
Kaykay Brady: 16:25
At first, right, they're kind of like enemies.
Brooke Suchomel: 16:27
Right. Katie Beth is super hostile to Jessi, because she used to be the youngest star student in the class. And now Jessi's the youngest star student, so there's some jealousy there. But when Jessi notices that her sister, who is there for a visit, is signing, Jessi picks up on that difference, and communicates through that difference. And it's through that, that she actually forms an understanding, and an alliance with this girl that they previously were in opposition. Ann M. Martin is such a master of those subtleties.
Kaykay Brady: 16:58
Totally. And in fact, she teaches Katie Beth not only to start signing, but sort of teaches her how to connect with her sister and align with her sister, versus, you know, just sort of going along with what the family is doing, which is hostile intolerance and ignoring. And again, I think your point about the empathy is perfect, because Jessi doesn't do it by saying, "Shame on you for ostracizing your sister." She just kind of lights a candle, and starts basically showing everybody how cool it is to sign. I mean, she does it to the whole neighborhood, right? She teaches all the kids in the neighborhood and she calls it a secret language, and she gets them really excited about it. And what I love about that is, I've read a quote, and I don't know where it was from, but it was something like, "You can't tear down what already exists, you have to build something new first." So you can't just wreck things. You've gotta build things. And this is an example of building things, right? She doesn't come in and say, "You're all oppressive motherfuckers!" She empathetically and humbly just makes it positive and good, and shows them how they can do it. And I thought that was awesome, and an example of the type of building we could use in this world.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:27
Totally. Well, and the way that she's able to frame it in terms of, what will the people that are in this dominant culture, what will appeal to them? So what will the hearing people like? Not just like, "This is different," but like, "Look at what this gives you the opportunity to do that you can't do right now." And so she knows that the kids would love to be able to communicate to each other in a way that the adults, they don't know. Like, you guys can talk to each other, the adults aren't going to know what you're saying. So the kids are immediately going to be like, "Oh, that's what I want." So it's not so much like, "I know what you want is to be able to communicate with this new kid that you're just meeting for the first time who can't hear you." That isn't as motivating, even though, you know, hopefully they get to that point. That's not necessarily the starting point that's going to motivate them. What's going to motivate them is like, "Hey, don't you hate it when your parents tell you you gotta go to your room and you've gotta be quiet? You can still communicate, even if your parents don't know that's what you're doing." Any kid's gonna be like, "Hell yeah!" Like, think about you with your Spy Tech. Remember the whole idea of invisible ink? Like, you can communicate secret messages to people and the adults won't find out. And so she's able to think about the recipient's motivation, the targeted person's motivation, and taps right into that and is able to bring them along almost immediately.
Kaykay Brady: 19:48
Yeah, it goes back to your point of empathy and understanding and the way that this author is always so good at speaking those languages and helping people to better understand each other, and also understanding where all the characters are coming from, and motivating based on a space of understanding versus a space of judgment or opposition.
Brooke Suchomel: 20:12
Totally. And she does that, I think, Ann M. Martin gets you in that mindset of, you're coming into every scenario with a perspective on what is quote, unquote, normal, right? And that normalcy is based on the dominant culture that you're submersed in, but she doesn't say it in that way. Because what eight year old kid is gonna pick up and get that out of it? But on page three, when Jessi is introducing herself, she has a paragraph where she talks about her family, who she is. And she says, "I'm 11. And my full name is Jessica Davis Ramsey. My family is black." And that's its own sentence. "My family is black" is its own sentence. And then the next paragraph is, "I know it sounds funny to announce it like that. If we were white, I wouldn't have to, because you would probably assume we were white. But when you're a minority, things are different." And so reading this again for the first time in 2021. And I would have read this when this was published, because as I mentioned, book 15, it was the kids pageant that got me into the Baby-sitters Club.
Kaykay Brady: 21:21
Yeah, so moving forward from that you are on them.
Brooke Suchomel: 21:23
Right, which led me to do a podcast that's all about dominant culture, and how can this upend patriarchy, and I got into it from the kids pageant book. So there you go. But you know, reading it, I'm like, oh, my gosh, so when I was eight, I would have been getting that lesson, just a brief lesson on what dominant culture is. It was put in terms that I can understand, like, that's so clear, you know? Just the fact that like, she says, "You would assume this, but I have to make it clear to you, because we are outside of what you assume." I just think it's just so beautiful, how that is there. And I'm like, there's a part of me that that sunk in, that made an impression, and like, how many kids are out there that have a little bit more empathy, and a little bit more understanding of what it's like to be outside of people's assumptions, to not fit into people's go-to assumptions, that there are a bunch of kids that get that, and who are adults now that get that, because Ann M. Martin put those words there. I think that that's really beautiful. So we've talked about what they're fighting and sort of the tools that they're using to fight that. But before we get into more of the meat of the conversation, let's make sure everybody's grounded in the plots. So what did you have, Kaykay, for the main plots of this book?
Kaykay Brady: 22:45
So the first one I had was, basically Jessi needs to learn American Sign Language to babysit for Matt, that was sort of a main plot that then spurred into all these subplots, like she teaches the neighborhood kids how to sign too. And then there was a second plot about Jessi being in a ballet in the Stanford ballet company. And that ties into the first plot, because Jessi decides that they're going to invite all the hearing impaired kids to the dance performance, and they do sign language for the kids. Those are my main ones. Did I miss any?
Brooke Suchomel: 23:27
Like, from an action standpoint, that's kind of what I had for what was going on. And then I just had sort of an underlying theme that went throughout, is Jessi's family and the Braddocks, the family of the deaf child, they're new to Stoneybrook. So it's about their adjustments of trying to meet people and make friends and sort of establish themselves in their new environment. So, to the point about the importance of learning sign language, it's interesting at the beginning that Jessi is brought to the Braddocks to be trained by the Braddocks' mom on sign language and why they use sign language. You know, she says there's different camps of some people who think that their kids should just learn how to read lips, and that they've decided that they want to actually teach him sign language, make sure he knows sign language, and that the debate is like, does the non hearing person have to come along and just sort of learn how to acclimate into a hearing world? Or are the hearing people willing to make accommodations in their own life so that the non hearing person can communicate more fully, you know, meet on their terms?
Kaykay Brady: 24:38
Yeah. And also the idea that, you know, is a non hearing person a damaged normal person, or is a non hearing person a diverse person who should not be pathologized? And maybe going too far afield, but all this discussion about cochlear implants, you know, a lot of folks in the non hearing community are basically like, "There's nothing wrong with us, and we shouldn't have to medically be changed, you know, when we have a rich culture. We have a fantastic culture and that culture should be embraced."
Brooke Suchomel: 25:16
Exactly. So this was a huge topic of conversation in America in March of 1988.
Kaykay Brady: 25:26
I had no idea!
Brooke Suchomel: 25:27
So this is a September 1988 publication. March of 1988, there is a big story in the news that I think is pretty clearly, kind of like when we talked about The Truth About Stacey, and Stacey's diabetes, how it seemed like it was an allegory for the Ryan White, child with HIV who was in the news, the commentary that was going on about kids with HIV, should they be allowed to come to school, all of that. This to me seems like Ann M. Martin's commentary on the controversy at Gallaudet University. Are you familiar with Gallaudet University in DC?
Kaykay Brady: 26:08
No.
Brooke Suchomel: 26:09
It is the only bilingual university where the two languages are American Sign Language and English, because it is actually a school for the deaf community, and has existed as such since like the late 1800s. I would have to confirm this, but I believe the entire student population is deaf. And they had never had a deaf president, the leadership of the university had always been a hearing person. And they had a opening, they were looking for new president, and the Board of Trustees selected a hearing president. There had been a ton of calls saying, "It's time. We really want somebody leading this institution who understands our culture, who can speak our freaking language." And the Board of Trustees, who was predominantly hearing, chose a hearing person who didn't know sign language. They had it down to three candidates, two of whom were deaf, one of whom was hearing. All of the Deaf members of the Board of Trustees voted for a deaf candidate. All of the hearing members of the Board of Trustees voted for a hearing candidate, and the hearing person won.
Kaykay Brady: 27:26
Dang.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:27
So this was a huge uproar. The students were complete and utter badasses. They literally chained the gates to the university and shut it down. They did not take it, at all. And I think that, you know, there is something to be said, where a lot of times people think that if you're not in the dominant culture, like, it's this paternalism, like you're not able to be passionate, and the people in the dominant culture will pat you on the head, and "they know what's best for you," right? And they were just like, "Fuck this, we are done with this. No, it's not happening." They made a huge uproar and got a ton of attention. Like we said, you've got the presidential campaigns going on at that point, so you had all of these people running for the nominations weighing in. They were all, surprisingly, supporting the students. Way to go, people that are not typically progressive in any way, but even they were kind of seeing the writing on the wall, right. And the Board of Trustees was so freaking stubborn. They just refused. And the Chair of the Board of Trustees is alleged by many sources to have said to the students, "Deaf people cannot function in a hearing world." That was the response. And so the student protesters just upped their demands. So it became not just, "We want a deaf president." It became, "We want a deaf president and you gotta get the fuck out, lady. You're gone." And then it was, "And at least 51% of the Board of Trustees have to be non hearing. There needs to be zero repercussions for the leaders of this protest." So they actually got onto Nightline. Nightline used to be a really big news show, you know, at night, and Ted Koppel had on the president who had been chosen, the leader of the student government, who was leading this charge for a deaf president. They called it Deaf President Now, was the movement. And then Marlee Matlin, who is the deaf actress who had won an Oscar the previous year. So she was big in the news. People were like, "Oh my gosh," they're starting to see what deaf people can do. That they can be a part of the community and achieve things at the same level as hearing people do. You just have to, again, it's about making accommodations and meeting them. So I actually watched this episode of Nightline, and they had closed captioning on the screen. Ted Koppel is explaining what closed captioning is, because they actually ran it into the tape because people didn't have access. Like, you had to get a special box to be able to get closed captioning, and a lot of non hearing people didn't have that box. They couldn't afford it and couldn't get access to it. According to them, this is the first time that they were broadcasting something with closed captioning. So Ted Koppel is explaining what closed captioning is, like, this is how far we were as a society of understanding. And then they had translators for the deaf panelists, and he's like explaining, "You're going to hear a woman talking, but this woman is talking for the male student leader who you see on the screen." So really having to explain. And Ted Koppel, you could tell he was really worried throughout, having to kind of narrate to the viewer about what is going on, in a way that now, you're just like, "Why are you talking? Obviously, we get it." But people didn't at that time, because they were so isolated.
Kaykay Brady: 30:54
Well, and also, I think you describing it as "worried" is really important, because I think it shows the sort of stress it creates in the dominant community to have to think, to have to explain, and it creates such cognitive dissonance for the dominant community, that they'd rather just have it fucking go away.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:18
That was the thing that I noticed. For some points, I thought he was doing okay. But then Ted Koppel would be like, when Marlee Matlin and the student leader would get really amped up and were like, "No, no, this is bullshit," and calling out what the president was saying, he was like, "There's just so much going on, our viewers aren't gonna understand what's happening." Like, he was very concerned about, again, what the dominant culture's response would be, as opposed to what it's like for all of these people who have been shut out of dominant culture for so long. So this was happening in March, and actually, just two days after this nightline, the president who had been selected, there's a great podcast that I'll link to, it's called The Dollop, which is like a comedy US history podcast that I enjoy. And they did an episode on this. And in that, they reported that somebody at a dinner had mentioned to her that this is a civil rights issue. This is truly civil rights. And she said this was the first time that she had ever considered it in those terms, and when she realized that it was civil rights, she's like, "I'm stepping down, like, immediately."
Kaykay Brady: 32:23
Yeah, something clicked.
Brooke Suchomel: 32:24
Yeah. It clicked for her. And she's like, "I'm stepping down. I want to eat my salad by myself." She literally isolated herself from everybody else. And then she just like, went back to her old job. And she's like, "No, no, this isn't the right place for me." So it was the Board of Trustees Chair who was just insistent, and she was the one who was like, "Deaf people cannot." So it was this paternalistic bullshit, this rich, you know, kind of like Lady Bountiful. "I am the white shining knight. I know better than you, so just leave it up to us to make these decisions."
Kaykay Brady: 32:57
Well, it's also really cool when you said, you know, it clicked for her when she thought about civil rights, and I feel like that's a very important concept. Because it's so much easier to look back in history and realize everyone had certain thoughts and assumptions that they didn't even know they fuckin had about all kinds of groups of people. Like gay people, right? You would turn on the news in the 80s, and you would turn on shows and TV, and it was like, gay people were like, sick, unhealthy, a hideous lifestyle, it was a choice, you know. And at the time, you couldn't even see it. But now you look back, and you can see it.
Brooke Suchomel: 33:37
Oh, totally.
Kaykay Brady: 33:37
All of that is so useful, because it should have us all thinking today. What are we doing today? Like, who are the groups today that are being marginalized and oppressed, and we just don't give them the fucking time of day.
Brooke Suchomel: 33:53
Right, because of assumptions we have about what their life is like and what their motivations are, because we just don't know them. We're just not exposed to them, either by choice or by cultural creation.
Kaykay Brady: 34:06
"Cultural creation," great way to put it.
Brooke Suchomel: 34:09
There's that alienation. And so I think that's why it's really powerful that it's Jessi, who is feeling alienated because she is a rare black student at Stoneybrook Middle School...
Kaykay Brady: 34:23
Like the only one in her grade, right?
Brooke Suchomel: 34:25
The only one in her grade. And she understands that feeling of alienation. And she actually has a bonding moment with the sister, right? You know, the sister is saying that it's really hard to have a deaf brother.
Kaykay Brady: 34:42
I loved these scenes. I loved these scenes. I thought they were the most powerful scenes in the entire book. There's multiple scenes where you see Haley, Matt's sister, both sticking up for him and advocating for him, and then kind of hating him at the same time. Because she loves him and does align with him in so many ways, and it is so painful to be outside the dominant culture that you can't help but attack each other. Right? You see this all the time, they call it "horizontal oppression," where marginalized group members will actually attack each other, keep each other in line, almost more than the dominant culture will do. Because the fucking pain of not fitting in is so excruciating, that she both loves her brother fiercely and she kind of low key hates him at the same time. And I was like, "Damn, Ann M. What insight." Powerful message, and so subtle that a lot of books would never talk about that.
Brooke Suchomel: 35:47
Right. And she and Jessi talk about that, and they look to find a word even to define it, right? And Jessi's like, "Oh, so it's like you resent him." She's like, "Yeah, that's what it is. It's resenting." And it's because they're both outside of that dominant culture that they're able to talk about it, you know? Like, Jessi gets it, because Jessi feels that way, too. So she's able to put that into words, at such a young age, in a way that for people that are in the dominant culture, if they come around, a lot of times, it takes them longer. Because again, you're, as you always put it, so beautifully, like, you're swimming in the soup. You're in it. So you're not getting that alienation in the same way that other people are. So it's hard for you to recognize it. But if you're getting alienation in any way from the dominant culture, you can more readily identify with people who might be alienated in different ways. You both have that link of alienation, and so you can connect with each other about that. So I thought that that was really lovely. And, you know, how it was a civil rights thing, how it was a matter of the dominant culture not making accommodations for you, and how you feel like you're just sort of like thrashing against something that doesn't feel like it's willing to move. At the same time you had the American Disabilities Act being introduced. That was introduced in May of 1988.
Kaykay Brady: 37:09
Wow.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:10
So again, this was in the news. There was a lot happening in the spring of '88, leading up to the publication of this book.
Kaykay Brady: 37:18
And this was a topic that, before these acts were introduced, before any of these conversations, this was not discussed.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:26
Not at all.
Kaykay Brady: 37:27
Like, it did not exist, you know, there just was no conversation. So you're so right, that this would have been really revolutionary, that this was in the news, that there were things happening, that governments were wrangling with this. And of course, she would have noticed.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:43
Definitely. And deafness in particular was a big part of, you know, the American Disabilities Act covers so many differences.
Kaykay Brady: 37:53
Dude, just for our listeners, if you want to see a great movie about this, Crip Camp. Have you seen Crip Camp?
Brooke Suchomel: 37:59
I haven't seen it. I need to. I've heard such good things about it.
Kaykay Brady: 38:02
Oh, you gotta see it. So it's all about, you know, how this was not a topic, right, and it's basically all about the advocates bringing this topic of conversation to government and the changes that happened.
Brooke Suchomel: 38:13
It focuses on the creation of the American Disabilities Act?
Kaykay Brady: 38:17
Yeah, because a lot of the folks that were behind that now went to this camp in upstate New York that they humorously labeled Crip Camp, where basically, people in the disabled community could actually come together and socialize and date and like, do fucking things. And this camp was the first camp that could accommodate like any level of disability. And the sort of community that it created, eventually created this sort of whole wave of advocacy in New York City, which eventually led to the writing of that bill
Brooke Suchomel: 38:47
Which is amazing to think about. So there's another connection between us, because I actually take great pride in the ADA, because the lead sponsor of it was Iowa's last good senator.
Kaykay Brady: 38:58
Wow. I had no idea.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:01
Tom Harkin was a senator from Iowa, a Democratic senator from Iowa, whose brother was deaf. So he really took this up as a big cause of his. And when he introduced it, as part of his intro speech for the final passage of the bill in 1990 in the Senate, he actually did part of it in sign language, because he wanted his brother to be able to understand it.
Kaykay Brady: 39:24
Fuck yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:25
Again, there's just so many connections between what was going on with Gallaudet and what was going on with the ADA...
Kaykay Brady: 39:31
Ah, we're on fire with these connections. Coke talk!
Brooke Suchomel: 39:36
But yeah, it was cool to see how, and that's why we always start off with talking about the historical events that are happening at that time, because literature isn't written in a vacuum and it's not read in a vacuum. It's just not. And children pick up on things. The messages that they get from pop culture is so powerful because as a kid you're not sitting there reading self help books, you're just immersed in the world. The messages that are coming at you from the world that you're just immersed in, not thinking too actively about, those things really imprint on you as a child. It'd be really interesting to sort of compare what people thought about the deaf community and about people with disabilities and making accommodations for them. Like, what is the impression that people who were perhaps born and raised in the 70s have versus people born and raised in the 80s, when these things were being discussed more. You know, kids reading this probably knew about what was going on at Gallaudet University in a way that they might not know today, just because you had, what, like most people have like four or five channels? And everybody had the news on.
Kaykay Brady: 40:45
Yeah, you couldn't escape it if you were going to be...
Brooke Suchomel: 40:46
Right, and the news, all of the news would be talking about this. So you're sitting there eating dinner, and you're hearing about this. And then when you pick up this book a few months later, you've got context that helps you to better understand what's going on.
Kaykay Brady: 40:59
Nice job with the historical context, my friend.
Brooke Suchomel: 41:02
It's so fun to see. Because that's ultimately what we're doing, like, why did this book series stick with me in a way that other books series didn't? And I think it's because it was making that commentary.
Kaykay Brady: 41:13
Well, and also, good for Ann M. You know, she's not just farting around. She's trying to be on the bleeding edge.
Brooke Suchomel: 41:20
She's only farting around when her publishers tell her that she has to produce an ad for the Disney conglomerate. Yeah, and then she's like, "Oh my god, fuck this. Here. Look at this picture of a flying banana. And Karen's getting her nails done. There we go. Enjoy."
Kaykay Brady: 41:34
And I think that's a really useful springboard for me, to what I want to make space for about this book, which is the ways that I feel like Ann M. is kind of on her edge and not quite getting there. This book, sometimes it's just so stultifyingly white and patrician and Connecticut. And I would just love to see more cultures other than the predominantly, like, things you might ascribe to the white culture being brought to the table.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:09
It sort of shows the limitations of what one author writing from one perspective, you know, you're always told, "Write what you know."
Kaykay Brady: 42:17
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:18
That is such a thing that gets ingrained in you in writing classes.
Kaykay Brady: 42:21
Well, and it's so interesting. Now that you're talking, I'm realizing, okay, so for example, when she talks about the deaf community, it's like I hear the deaf voices, even though I am not deaf. It's a voice that still comes through to me as sort of things I have not contemplated, cultural things, just things that she's bringing to the table where I'm like, "Wow, she's really researched this. And she really has talked to deaf people to bring some sort of cultural perspective." I would have loved to see more things, like coming in from the deaf community, that also had to come in from the black community and challenge the white community with its difference. Right?
Brooke Suchomel: 43:00
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 43:01
It feels like maybe she didn't, you know, talk to as many black people before she wrote this book. I could be totally wrong. And of course, I also understand the irony of two white voices trying to define or think that they know what's in the author's head or what would be in any reader's head. But it also feels just important to like, at least try.
Brooke Suchomel: 43:25
Absolutely. Being very cognizant of our potential failures and weaknesses, etc, we're eyes open to that. As you're talking, it does make me think about the fact that it seems like the racial tensions in Stoneybrook and Jessi and her family, the bullshit that they are having to deal with, it's interesting that it seems like that was dealt with more forthrightly in the book that was narrated by Mallory.
Kaykay Brady: 43:54
Huh.
Brooke Suchomel: 43:55
Hello, Mallory, it seems like Mallory was noticing things and was really angry about things that she saw in a way that you don't hear, like, Jessi talks about, "It's hard." She brings up, like, "Try being black in Stoneybrook," you know, but it's like an aside.
Kaykay Brady: 44:10
You're totally right, it's almost more like throw away.
Brooke Suchomel: 44:13
Right. Or it's like, is it a matter of Ann M. Martin is more able to comment on racial issues through the voice of a white character, because then it's like, it is the same thing, right? It is Mallory noticing things that don't directly impact the way that she is treated, but she is seeing how others are treated and making that commentary. And I wonder, does Ann M. Martin have sort of a hesitation towards writing in the voice of a black character?
Kaykay Brady: 44:45
Yes, or and just a limitation, right? And that makes complete sense to me like, it would be easier as a white person to imagine a white person experiencing what your black friend is experiencing, than to truly have any idea what it would be like.
Brooke Suchomel: 45:04
Yeah, Jessi is also seeing that alienation that is happening to a group that is outside of her, right? So it's almost like you've got Mallory commenting on the injustice and alienation that she's seeing Jessi go through, and then you have Jessi commenting on the alienation and injustice that she's seeing Matt and the deaf community go through. And so it's like, there is a remove, so that you get that buffer, so that it doesn't have to be like, you know, bringing in that righteous indignation and fury that might be there. You know, does Ann M. feel like it's either not appropriate, or she's not capable or whatever, of going there, because of the fact that she is a hearing white woman?
Kaykay Brady: 45:56
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 45:57
You know?
Kaykay Brady: 45:58
And the other thing I also feel is important is, I feel like I want to extend Ann M. the same empathy I'm hoping we're extended, which is, she's fucking trying.
Brooke Suchomel: 46:10
Yeah, absolutely.
Kaykay Brady: 46:11
She's bringing it to the table, and any sort of limitations or hesitations that might be coming across in the work is going to be so natural. And fucking good on you, man. Good on you for bringing this.
Brooke Suchomel: 46:25
And that she's writing from a queer perspective, too. Like, she's alienated as well. So is that why she's able to even attempt to go in a direction that a lot of authors weren't going? Because she knows what it's like, you know, and like, she can't write from the one voice that would be most true.
Kaykay Brady: 46:49
Damn.
Brooke Suchomel: 46:50
Right? Think about that.
Kaykay Brady: 46:51
You're blowing my mind.
Brooke Suchomel: 46:53
Every voice that she has to write in is in, except for Kristy...
Kaykay Brady: 47:00
Let's be real. She's kind of writing in the voice of Kristy.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:04
But I also, when I see her write about Kristy, I also see her write, like, she has hostility towards Kristy that she doesn't have towards other characters that I see.
Kaykay Brady: 47:10
That's so true. Yeah, you could do a dissertation on some, you know, self hating homophobia in this book series.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:17
Yeah. Obviously, you know, not expressed in that way. But it's like, she always says in interviews that she feels closest to Mary Anne. And again, Mary Anne is the character who is the least fleshed out.
Kaykay Brady: 47:28
She's kind of barely there in a lot of ways.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:30
She's barely there. You would be like, okay, she's like, in the corner, that's Mary Anne. And then the character that, to our modern eyes, seems to be most clearly queer is also the one where it's like, you know, it starts off, she's the very first character that's ever introduced in this book series. And she has a tremendous amount of empathy in her early books that seems to sort of go away in later books. And it's like, what's going on there? So, yeah, just the authorial perspective, when you have to write from so many different characters from so many different backgrounds, but you can't ever write as the one character that is most like yourself.
Kaykay Brady: 48:10
Snap.
Brooke Suchomel: 48:10
That process has to be really, really complicated. So yeah, please, by all means, we would love, first of all, we want to thank everybody that listens to this podcast, because we've gotten some great reviews back that like, make our life. We totally will text each other like, "Oh, did you see that?"
Kaykay Brady: 48:27
I know.
Brooke Suchomel: 48:28
We love it. It just, it makes us feel so happy to know that, you know, we're doing this for ourselves, but we want to create something that we feel like other people will enjoy. We want to put something out that we feel like other people would listen to, I'm certainly creating a podcast that's like, this is a podcast that I wanted to listen to, and it didn't exist. So we made it happen. And to that end, we welcome feedback, like, are we completely off base on something? Let us know, is there a part that we're missing? We definitely want to factor in different perspectives just in the way that Ann M. Martin tried to?
Kaykay Brady: 49:01
Hell yes.
Brooke Suchomel: 49:02
What did you have for your Most 80s Moment?
Kaykay Brady: 49:05
I think I only had one.
Brooke Suchomel: 49:07
I wonder if we have the same one.
Kaykay Brady: 49:09
We might. I thought we might. Mine is looking things up in the encyclopedia.
Brooke Suchomel: 49:14
Oh, okay.
Kaykay Brady: 49:16
That's so 80s, because there was no internet. And if you had a school project or just needed to know about something, either you had to go to your own encyclopedia or if you didn't have an encyclopedia, you know, you had to go to the library.
Brooke Suchomel: 49:29
Yeah, go to the card catalog.
Kaykay Brady: 49:32
The Dewey Decimal System?
Brooke Suchomel: 49:36
I still have such an affection for a card catalog. Oh god, I love a card catalog.
Kaykay Brady: 49:42
You can buy old library card catalogs. You need that for your house. You put your knickknacks in there.
Brooke Suchomel: 49:48
The only thing that has stopped me from getting one is I have literally nowhere to put it. I mean, I live in the Bay Area, it's not like I have a ton of extra space. I love that. I didn't know if you picked up on Haley Braddock's "very in" rat tail.
Kaykay Brady: 50:03
Yeah, she said something like, "It's very stylish," right?
Brooke Suchomel: 50:07
It's "very in."
Kaykay Brady: 50:09
"Very in," yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 50:10
"Very" is italicized. Yeah, "Her blonde hair was cut short with a little tail in the back," parentheses, "Very in." That was very 80s. And for a long time, I was like, "Okay, this is the only 80s moment," and then at the very end, they hit us with the quiche. They go out to a restaurant that specializes in quiche, and that is 80s, my friends. Quiche had a moment in the 80s.
Kaykay Brady: 50:34
Oh, you know what I've heard? Oh, no, that's crepe. Crepe is the gay hamburger. I know we're not talking about crepes, but I'm so glad that I get to work that in. That's what I've heard, crepe is the gay hamburger.
Brooke Suchomel: 50:47
What is quiche?
Kaykay Brady: 50:50
Quiche...is the gay...bacon?
Brooke Suchomel: 50:53
Maybe. Or...muffin?
Kaykay Brady: 50:57
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 50:58
Quiche is the gay muffin.
Kaykay Brady: 50:59
I like that. Perfect.
Brooke Suchomel: 51:00
You know, lower carb, keto.
Kaykay Brady: 51:03
Bumper sticker. These bumper stickers are making themselves.
Brooke Suchomel: 51:07
Yeah, I remember my mom had, like, at least three cookbooks that had a quiche on the cover. All from the 80s.
Kaykay Brady: 51:13
Did your mom also have a rat tail?
Brooke Suchomel: 51:15
My mom did not have a rat tail.
Kaykay Brady: 51:17
Damn!
Brooke Suchomel: 51:18
No, unfortunately.
Kaykay Brady: 51:19
Well, there's no time like the present.
Brooke Suchomel: 51:23
Right? Hey, Mom, if you're listening, Kaykay has a request for the next time you get your hair cut.
Kaykay Brady: 51:28
Rat tail!
Brooke Suchomel: 51:29
And actually, I have a request for the next time you get your hair cut. Yeah, we're all on board with it, with a rat tail. Um, that's not gonna happen.
Kaykay Brady: 51:35
Two rat tails. One for Brooke and one for Kaykay.
Brooke Suchomel: 51:40
Yeah, and then you could do it Claudia style, like take your rat tail braid, and then wrap it around your head and secure it with an elaborate barrette. There you go. Looking so fly.
Kaykay Brady: 51:50
You're welcome.
Brooke Suchomel: 51:51
That's another thing that we would love to hear from our listeners on, if there's anything particularly 80s that you were into in this book series, let us know, because I'm cataloguing these and they're so much freaking fun. In our next episode, we talked about the fact that she is the least fleshed out character, and so we'll see if maybe she'll give us a little bit more meat to chew on with the next episode, which is Mary Anne's Bad Luck Mystery. Mary Anne gets a charm sent to her that she has to wear in the mail.
Kaykay Brady: 52:25
What?
Brooke Suchomel: 52:26
It says if she doesn't wear it, she's going to have bad luck.
Kaykay Brady: 52:28
Oh, this is like these bullshit chains you get from your older aunts.
Brooke Suchomel: 52:31
Exactly. We're gonna get a preliminary Most 80s Moment in the premise of the next book, which is Mary Anne's Bad Luck Mystery is so freaking 80s in and of itself. Did you ever get a chain letter sent to you in the mail?
Kaykay Brady: 52:43
I'm sure I must have, but I'm sure I immediately shredded them and then went out and played basketball.
Brooke Suchomel: 52:48
Right, this was the precursor to the email forward. So we get to get into that in our next episode. But until then...
Kaykay Brady: 52:56
Just keep sittin'. [THEME SONG] The Dewey Decimal System?
