Transcript - BSFC #21: Mallory and the Trouble with Twins

Brooke Suchomel: 0:18

Welcome to the Baby-sitters Fight Club, where the first rule is, you don't talk about Fight Club. Instead, you talk about the Baby-sitters Club series of books by Ann M. Martin. I'm Brooke Suchomel, an editor who's revisiting these books after 30 years.

Kaykay Brady: 0:32

And I'm Kaykay Brady. I'm a therapist, and I'm new to the books.

Brooke Suchomel: 0:36

So Kaykay, we spent our summer vacation watching and talking about TV.

Kaykay Brady: 0:40

It was a good break. It was like, you know, you've been at your aunt's house all summer, going to bed late, sleeping late...

Brooke Suchomel: 0:48

Having the best fucking time.

Kaykay Brady: 0:50

Yeah, just summer. You just were in, well, if you're me, you're wearing, you know, Tevas and Umbro shorts. And then now you got to go back to school. Now you got to crack the books.

Brooke Suchomel: 0:59

Right. So we're cracking the books. Going back to our original format talking about literature and history. But we'll try to make this the fun kind of cracking the books, right?

Kaykay Brady: 1:09

Yeah. And we love the books, you know, the books are really rich. And it was funny going back to reading the books, you realize how much the books sort of like, take more of your mind. The TV show is really fun, but I don't know, for me, about 80% of my brain isn't really engaged in it. Versus the books, my whole brain is sort of operating. So it actually feels really nice to go back.

Brooke Suchomel: 1:34

Yeah, well, I'm excited to get back into it with you in this episode, when we're going to talk about Mallory and the Trouble with Twins. And as we always do in our book focused episodes, we are going to talk about it in the context of the time in which it was published.

Kaykay Brady: 1:50

I missed this part.

Brooke Suchomel: 1:51

I know, me too.

Kaykay Brady: 1:52

Even though it's like you do all the work.

Brooke Suchomel: 1:54

Not all the work.

Kaykay Brady: 1:55

Well you do the pre work, I get to just show up and be dazzled.

Brooke Suchomel: 1:59

Well, you get to show up and dazzle, I think, is what you meant to say. So in this episode, we are going to take you back to February of 1989. On TV, you had the Grammys hosted by Billy Crystal who hosted fucking everything for 20 years in America. The Album of the Year award went to George Michael's Faith.

Kaykay Brady: 2:22

Quality, very quality.

Brooke Suchomel: 2:24

Yeah, if you're new to the show, with every one of our book oriented podcasts, I put together a playlist of music and a playlist of music videos that goes along with that month, so that you can hear what was big at the time. And it's rare to find a playlist that doesn't have George Michael on it, because he was everywhere with Faith.

Kaykay Brady: 2:46

I mean, one of the best parts of the 80s, 90s, George Michael.

Brooke Suchomel: 2:49

Seriously, so well deserved Album of the Year. Song of the Year went to Bobby McFerrin for "Don't Worry, Be Happy," aka the song that Dad Bush tried to make his campaign anthem and got shot down. And then the first award for Best Rap Performance was handed out in 1989, and that went to DJ Jazzy Jeff and The Fresh Prince for "Parents Just Don't Understand." But it won over Salt-n-Pepa with "Push It."

Kaykay Brady: 3:18

That's nonsense.

Brooke Suchomel: 3:19

Which is the Best Rap Performance, not just of 1989, but perhaps of the 80s, in my heart.

Kaykay Brady: 3:28

Oh, no doubt.

Brooke Suchomel: 3:29

But then, speaking of music, so we had the number one song for three weeks in February 1989, Paula Abdul with "Straight Up." This was her break on the scene. And do you remember like what a phenomenon that was? It was everywhere.

Kaykay Brady: 3:44

It was huge. It was everywhere. I even remember the video. Paula Abdul was like a sensation.

Brooke Suchomel: 3:50

89 to 91, the era of Paula Abdul.

Kaykay Brady: 3:54

When did [MC] Skat Kat cat hit the scene?

Brooke Suchomel: 3:57

That comes out a little bit later on the same album. So you're talking "Opposites Attract"?

Kaykay Brady: 4:02

Yeah, that's the same album? Well, I guess bebop and scatting is like a jazz term, but now, I'm just like, Skat Kat?

Brooke Suchomel: 4:12

Right, [MC] Kat Skat?

Kaykay Brady: 4:14

Poop Cat.

Brooke Suchomel: 4:15

Yeah. Takes it into a different direction.

Kaykay Brady: 4:18

It does.

Brooke Suchomel: 4:19

And then another big song, that was one of my songs that I would always request when I would go to skate parties, was Tone-Loc with "Wild Thing."

Kaykay Brady: 4:29

Yeah, that's perfect for a skate party.

Brooke Suchomel: 4:32

It's a great skate party song.

Kaykay Brady: 4:33

It's like a nice speed. There's like a real groove to that.

Brooke Suchomel: 4:37

It's a good one. So yeah, our playlist for this particular episode is quite good, so highly recommend it. Albums released that month, we had Indigo Girls were out with their Indigo Girls album, the self titled album.

Kaykay Brady: 4:54

It's amazing that came out in the 80s, because you know, the Indigo Girls are about as opposite of the 80s as you can get. They're just like downhome folk lesbos with really deep lyrics.

Brooke Suchomel: 5:05

It feels very Lilith Fair.

Kaykay Brady: 5:06

Yeah. I mean, that was, I think, definitely the genus of that kind of genre.

Brooke Suchomel: 5:12

Right. So our playlist this month does start with "Wild Thing," and ends with "Closer to Fine," if that gives you a flavor of the kind of glorious playlists that we make for you guys. And then another album that was released that month was 2 Live Crew's As Nasty as They Wanna Be, which was their third album, went double platinum, and it was the first album to be ruled legally obscene. So this album was a huge topic of conversation.

Kaykay Brady: 5:43

Yeah, and slap a legally obscene label on that and watch them fly off the shelves.

Brooke Suchomel: 5:48

Absolutely.

Kaykay Brady: 5:49

That's how this goes.

Brooke Suchomel: 5:51

Do you remember listening to this album?

Kaykay Brady: 5:52

Sure.

Brooke Suchomel: 5:53

Was it one of those that got like, passed around at school?

Kaykay Brady: 5:57

Yeah, my best friend and I used to, like, you know, sneak it into her bedroom and listen to it on a little boombox.

Brooke Suchomel: 6:04

I remember listening to this on a fourth grade lunch line. My friend brought it and I put it in the Walkman and I'm listening and I'm like, "I feel like the biggest badass. Am I gonna go to jail? Am I gonna go to kid jail?"

Kaykay Brady: 6:20

Even more hardcore than the Cursing Club. I mean, it's basically like an album for the Cursing Club.

Brooke Suchomel: 6:24

The soundtrack for the Cursing Club came out in February of '89. This is the album that had the songs that 2 Live Crew performed on Donahue, which Kaykay, you brought to my attention really early on in this podcast. So our fifth episode, the one on Dawn and the Impossible Three, I honestly don't even remember how it came- oh, it's because they mentioned Donahue in that book.

Kaykay Brady: 6:52

Yeah, so I went on a Donahue search and that was one of the first things I found was 2 Live Crew singing, what, "Funk Shop"?

Brooke Suchomel: 6:59

Yeah. So they actually came out with, so there was As Nasty as They Wanna Be, and then they came out with an alternate version called As Clean as They Wanna Be. And so it became, instead of "The Fuck Shop," it's "The Funk Shop." And that's what they performed on Donahue and it is a goddamn delight, y'all. It is so freaking funny.

Kaykay Brady: 7:21

Brooke basically live blogged this, and it's basically an exercise in white panic, is really what it is.

Brooke Suchomel: 7:29

The part that is so great is that 2 Live Crew has such joy as they're doing it. They know exactly what they're doing, and they're like, "This is hilarious." Just the biggest grins on their face.

Kaykay Brady: 7:43

Take that outrage to the bank. Put it in the bank.

Brooke Suchomel: 7:44

Yeah, as these girls are dancing around them. And then the camera person is just constantly cutting to expressions of people in the audience who are just horrified, and then occasionally, someone who is loving every second of it.

Kaykay Brady: 7:59

Yeah, somebody who gets it,

Brooke Suchomel: 8:04

You don't know what you're gonna get, so...

Kaykay Brady: 8:05

Although, if I remember, it's kind of like one in five was loving it. You know, it certainly was more were not loving it.

Brooke Suchomel: 8:12

Oh, very much so.

Kaykay Brady: 8:13

But that one person that really got it, really got it.

Brooke Suchomel: 8:15

Which makes you really extra love that person.

Kaykay Brady: 8:18

Yeah, exactly.

Brooke Suchomel: 8:19

So on our website, on the Extras portion of our website, we do have sort of a photo blog of what this performance was like. So recommend checking that out if you want to...

Kaykay Brady: 8:30

Laugh your ass off.

Brooke Suchomel: 8:32

Feel a little warm hug. So that's what was out in music. In terms of the movies, one of the biggest movies that month that was released was The 'Burbs, aka the origin story of Nextdoor. So Kaykay, did you watch The 'Burbs?

Kaykay Brady: 8:47

That was one I never saw. I think Tom Hanks was in it though?

Brooke Suchomel: 8:51

He was, yeah. Carrie Fisher played his wife.

Kaykay Brady: 8:54

Really?

Brooke Suchomel: 8:55

Yeah.

Kaykay Brady: 8:56

Interesting.

Brooke Suchomel: 8:57

But she doesn't have a central role because it's the 80s, so...

Kaykay Brady: 9:02

She's just, what, cooking food in the background?

Brooke Suchomel: 9:04

Yeah, I mean, just oh, you know, scolding in the background. So basically, the story of The 'Burbs is some bored white dudes are suspicious of their new foreign neighbors who move in, so you get your suburban panic.

Kaykay Brady: 9:17

Are they French spies?

Brooke Suchomel: 9:18

They're not French spies, although they do take a similar page that Ann M. took when it was like, "We're going to be suspicious of people next door, but we have to have culturally acceptable xenophobia, so we're gonna make them French." They're German, I believe, in The 'Burbs. So that's been a culturally acceptable form of xenophobia for like 80 years and counting.

Kaykay Brady: 9:40

"Who's the global evil? German!"

Brooke Suchomel: 9:42

Right. We can't make it explicit, what we're panicking about, so we're gonna give it a little German cover, so that, "Oh, see, it's white people! We're afraid of other white people," but it's like, we know what you're actually saying here. So yeah, in The 'Burbs, these bored white dudes blow up a house and still are somehow the heroes.

Kaykay Brady: 10:01

Sounds like one I should not watch, in hindsight. Not one for our Patreon.

Brooke Suchomel: 10:06

I mean, it may be kind of fun to like actually deconstruct it, all of the insidious messages in The 'Burbs, because even when they're wrong, their suspicions are still revealed to be correct and justified. They're convinced that these new foreigners that have moved in next door have murdered somebody, and then at the end, after they blow up the house, you see, "Oh, no, the person that you thought they murdered is actually alive!" But then it's like, "Aha! They killed someone else you didn't even know about, so you were right not to trust them, even though you were wrong and you blew up a fucking house." The 'Burbs!

Kaykay Brady: 10:39

Yeah, when you're wrong, double down. That's what that means. Don't learn a thing, just double down.

Brooke Suchomel: 10:44

Just keep on blowing up houses until you're proven correct somehow. You're a white man in America, it'll work out fine. And then, that same day, Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.

Kaykay Brady: 10:54

Ah, that one stands the test of time.

Brooke Suchomel: 10:57

It does.

Kaykay Brady: 10:58

What was your relationship to Bill and Ted?

Brooke Suchomel: 11:00

I loved Bill and Ted. It was one of the movies that, we'd have 4-H sleepovers, and for some reason, Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure was a go to. We'd watch that and then do like, "light as a feather, stiff as a board."

Kaykay Brady: 11:14

Oh, right. 80s greatest hits right there.

Brooke Suchomel: 11:16

Definitely. Did you have an affinity for Bill and Ted?

Kaykay Brady: 11:21

I don't believe I saw Bill and Ted until later, because at some point, I went away to school. And then I was sort of just like, you know, stranded in the woods without television. We're about to hit my blackout phase, in terms of media. That was probably like '89, '90.

Brooke Suchomel: 11:37

Okay, so you were basically living in a Grimms' fairytale.

Kaykay Brady: 11:41

In the woods? Yeah. I was a troll.

Brooke Suchomel: 11:43

You just went and visited the witch that lives in the candy house every once in a while. That was your form of socialization.

Kaykay Brady: 11:50

Oh, I wish Dawn's mom was up there. No, it was very opposite of that. I was in one of these snotty fancy prep schools with a lot of douchebags. But it's cool. I found cool people.

Brooke Suchomel: 12:01

That's good. Sometimes being away from people that are cool, if you're like, cool people are a limited resource, it makes it easier to find them.

Kaykay Brady: 12:12

Yeah. Well, also, because you don't waste your time, right? Not that you're gonna totally dismiss people that you're not interested in being close to, but you sort of find your tribe and you're like, this person is somebody I'm interested in. It's almost like the process of elimination is as important as choosing the people, where you're like, yeah, this is where I want to invest in.

Brooke Suchomel: 12:32

Yeah, choosing where not to invest your time and energy is a good skill to hone, for sure.

Kaykay Brady: 12:38

Top skill. Top grown up skill.

Brooke Suchomel: 12:40

Definitely. So yeah, Bill and Ted, it's one of those that's like, I loved it so much, although looking back, it's funny when you look back to see, okay, again, what were the implicit messages that we got?

Kaykay Brady: 12:50

Oh, please share? I don't remember at all. I remember a phone booth, and Abraham Lincoln somehow is involved.

Brooke Suchomel: 12:58

Those are the two most important things, probably. So the plot of Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure basically boils down to, two dumb guys somehow save humanity through the music of their garage band.

Kaykay Brady: 13:10

Dope.

Brooke Suchomel: 13:11

That's like the overarching, that's the thing that has to happen. And they do that by kidnapping historical figures, which include one woman, just one woman, and several murderers. So there are many more murderers-

Kaykay Brady: 13:25

Than women.

Brooke Suchomel: 13:26

That they bring, than women. Yeah, so the one woman involved is actually Jane Wiedlin from The Go-Go's.

Kaykay Brady: 13:32

What? I don't remember this at all.

Brooke Suchomel: 13:36

She plays Joan of Arc.

Kaykay Brady: 13:37

Ah, yeah. Okay. I thought you were just gonna say they went and kidnapped a Go-Go. Like, Abraham Lincoln, Genghis Khan, and a Go-Go.

Brooke Suchomel: 13:46

Napoleon Bonaparte and Jane Wiedlin from the Go-Gos, yeah.

Kaykay Brady: 13:50

They're clearly on par.

Brooke Suchomel: 13:53

But she's really the only woman, besides the hot stepmom. So there's like two women in it. You get the hot stepmom, and then the girls that are princesses that they decide they're going to ultimately marry. And then Joan of Arc, who is introduced with the question posed to Keanu Reeves by his history teacher, "Who was Joan of Arc?," and he says, "Noah's wife?" So it's all about the wives.

Kaykay Brady: 14:21

So it doesn't past the Bechdel test, is what you're saying.

Brooke Suchomel: 14:24

Oh, no. No, it's gonna be a long time before any movie is even filmed that passes the Bechdel test, unfortunately.

Kaykay Brady: 14:31

True. That's sad and so true.

Brooke Suchomel: 14:34

Yeah. And I think the overarching message that we took away from Bill and Ted is that magic will save you from the consequences of your own actions if you're a white man.

Kaykay Brady: 14:43

Yet again! White men, just keep doing what you do, it's all gonna work out for you.

Brooke Suchomel: 14:48

Right. 80s culture was basically just a giant high five to white men.

Kaykay Brady: 14:53

Oh yeah, definitely.

Brooke Suchomel: 14:55

And the rest of us tried to find the scraps that we could get from it, so I think that's why we were so freaking delighted in our summer vacation to be watching something that passed the Bechdel Test, basically in every scene.

Kaykay Brady: 15:09

Oh, yeah. And then to think about, you know, kids growing up now, just the range of options they have of different people doing things, experiencing things, having adventures, you know, that it's just not all white dudes doing all of those things. How nice it must be for kids growing up now.

Brooke Suchomel: 15:26

Definitely. So even though it doesn't feel like it sometimes, we have made progress. You can see it when you go back, and you really start to take a look at the cultural artifacts that we grew up with and comparing it to what people get today. Feels good.

Kaykay Brady: 15:41

I mean, even reading these books has been an exercise in that.

Brooke Suchomel: 15:44

Oh, for sure

Kaykay Brady: 15:45

You know, as progressive as these books were, as new the approach that Ann M. was taking was, in some ways, you still see all the things that seemed sort of progressive then, now you're like, oh, problematic. So even the book experience has been like that.

Brooke Suchomel: 16:01

Yeah. And thank God, right? That we can look back and just be like, Okay, what was progressive is now, like, we have progressed so far beyond what was progressive at the time that the past progressive is now regressive, and that's a good thing. That's not a bad thing.

Kaykay Brady: 16:17

Yeah.

Brooke Suchomel: 16:17

You know, we've gone on a journey. And since the 21st Baby-sitters Club book, Mallory and the Trouble with Twins, was released in February 1989, we're going to go on that same journey when we talk about the book in this episode, I am sure.

Kaykay Brady: 16:32

Aww, yeah!

Brooke Suchomel: 16:33

So it is time for some back cover copy once again. And I quote, "Mallory knows she's a good babysitter. She's been looking after her seven younger brothers and sisters for years. So when Kristy offers her a steady job babysitting for the Arnold twins, Mal thinks it'll be easy money. The twins sure are cute in their little matching outfits. But once Mrs. Arnold leaves, Marilyn and Carolyn turn into twin terrors! They run around the house like spoiled brats, and Mallory can't even tell them apart. Taking care of Marilyn and Carolyn is a babysitting nightmare. But Mallory is a responsible member of the Baby-sitters Club, and she's not giving up!" End quote. So Kaykay, we're back to the books, back to the 80s. How strongly did you feel the 80s influence in this particular book?

Kaykay Brady: 17:23

Oh, this was this was a good book to come back on. It was one of the most 80s books, I feel, out of the 21 that we've read.

Brooke Suchomel: 17:31

Mm hmm. In what way, what jumps out at you?

Kaykay Brady: 17:34

Well, I mean, first of all, we're right back into the questionable parenting approaches, in the fact that, you know, the twins are definitely a handful. They're definitely acting out. And you know, one point, what's her name? Mrs...

Brooke Suchomel: 17:49

Mrs. Arnold.

Kaykay Brady: 17:50

Mrs. Arnold. Right.

Brooke Suchomel: 17:51

Linda Arnold.

Kaykay Brady: 17:52

Linda Arnold, right. Linda Arnold.

Brooke Suchomel: 17:54

She wears her name on a necklace around her neck, "Linda."

Kaykay Brady: 17:58

Perfect. Linda Arnold basically blames Claudia, when Claudia's sitting for the kids. Total bullshit, total lack of boundaries, poor parenting. So that's number one. And then number two, the whole arc of the book is all of the characters trying to figure out how to individuate and how to self actualize as human beings, and the vehicle that they do that through is basically like, buying shit. Like, "I want earrings. I want dog earrings, you want book earrings." And the mall is like the biggest character at this book, which is about as 80s as it gets.

Brooke Suchomel: 18:38

I mean, they use "malling" as a verb.

Kaykay Brady: 18:42

Which is a verb, but not a great verb.

Brooke Suchomel: 18:43

A verb they made up, right? It's like, "malling," to mall. It is when one malls. Yeah, I mean, even Kristy is like, "Let's go malling." You know, even Kristy's into it. This is a book about consumerism, this

Kaykay Brady: 18:58

It is, very explicitly. Although, you know, particular book. it's not called out as such. But it's like right under the surface that a modern read, you just kind of scrape a little dir away, and there it is.

Brooke Suchomel: 19:09

Yeah.

Kaykay Brady: 19:10

Yeah. What were your thoughts about the 80s themes in this?

Brooke Suchomel: 19:13

Oh, yeah. I mean, it was definitely the fact that consumerism and capitalism and finding your identity in the things that you purchase, and how somehow your external equals your internal. So like, the twins are assumed to be nice. And it's mentioned several times, like, "You look at them, and you're like, they're so nice, because they're well dressed."

Kaykay Brady: 19:39

And they're cute.

Brooke Suchomel: 19:40

Right, it's like, "appearance equals reality." That's extremely 80s.

Kaykay Brady: 19:46

Extremely 80s. And I would say we're still definitely stuck in it, although we're starting to get some voices to challenge that.

Brooke Suchomel: 19:52

Yeah. Where it's like, you know, "fake it till you make it" basically was the 80s in so many ways. And it's like, what if you can't ever make it because of the structural system that you're set up within?

Kaykay Brady: 20:04

Then it's your fault, obviously.

Brooke Suchomel: 20:06

Yeah. And you can't actually buy happiness.

Kaykay Brady: 20:09

Right.

Brooke Suchomel: 20:10

You absolutely need to have your needs taken care of, and to be stressed about money and to have needs go unmet definitely will make you unhappy. But like, you're not going to find happiness in the brand of jeans you buy, as much as the culture may tell you otherwise.

Kaykay Brady: 20:31

Yeah, and I think it takes a while. It's interesting to be looking at 11, 12, 13 year olds exploring this, because yeah, it takes a while. You know what I mean? Because I think, I guess I can only speak for myself and say that it took me so long to start really critically questioning that and being like, "Wait a second. Why am I not feeling self actualized and fulfilled in those ways?" But it doesn't come to you when you're 11, 12. Or you gotta be really fucking cool for it to come to you when you're- maybe kids today are, which is possible, you know, because they are much more far advanced than I was. But still, it takes a while.

Brooke Suchomel: 21:05

Yeah, this generation is definitely so much cooler. Like, it's astonishing how cool these kids today are.

Kaykay Brady: 21:14

Yeah, I mean, I feel like they're critically thinking in ways that I didn't start till I was 27, 28, 29, 30.

Brooke Suchomel: 21:20

Yeah. I think we're all in that process of trying to unpack the shit that we internalized growing up, right? And I think the thing that's nice now is that, I mean, kids definitely have other things that they have to internalize, like social media and all of that, but in terms of the commercialization, and like, "you can find yourself in the mall," I mean, malls don't even really exist so much anymore. It is really interesting to look at the decay of mall culture.

Kaykay Brady: 21:55

Yeah, it's a real metaphor.

Brooke Suchomel: 21:56

And the way that it reflects society as a whole, right? The process that American society has gone through. But you really see it in this book at like, its apex.

Kaykay Brady: 22:08

Yeah, the mall was so exciting. That was where you went to hang out. That was like, things were happening. You always wanted to go to the mall.

Brooke Suchomel: 22:15

Mm hmm.

Kaykay Brady: 22:15

Did you have a mall in your town? Did you go?

Brooke Suchomel: 22:17

I did, I did. I mean, there were two malls in my town.

Kaykay Brady: 22:20

TWO malls?

Brooke Suchomel: 22:21

Two malls!

Kaykay Brady: 22:22

Damn!

Brooke Suchomel: 22:23

We lived about five minutes from one of them

Kaykay Brady: 22:26

Perfection.

Brooke Suchomel: 22:27

So that is where everybody went. Like, that's where I saw my friends. It was almost like the mall in the late 80s was the equivalent of what I assume the role of the pub is in British and Irish culture, you know, that sort of meeting place, the living room of your community. In my town, that was the mall. Like, that's the only place that you saw people because, particularly in the Midwest, there's not shit to do, really, besides go buy things. By design.

Kaykay Brady: 23:05

And it's cold a lot of the year.

Brooke Suchomel: 23:07

Yeah, well, it's very cold a big part of the year and very hot a big part of the year, so the weather is not great for being outdoors. And so you would just go to the mall. I was at the mall at least once a week, and you just spent hours there.

Kaykay Brady: 23:21

Yeah. And also, you're making me think about the fact that you know, we didn't have phones or anything. So there had to be somewhere where you could meet your friends, right? Unless you were literally going to go knock on their door or call them and get their parents, you know, and who knows if they would even be there.

Brooke Suchomel: 23:35

Right. So in this book, they're very focused on getting their ears pierced. This is a book about going clothes shopping and getting your ears pierced. What did you do when you would go to the mall to socialize? Where would you spend your time?

Kaykay Brady: 23:49

Well, you know, definitely not getting my ears pierced.

Brooke Suchomel: 23:53

You were Kristy.

Kaykay Brady: 23:54

Yeah, exactly. I was much more Kristy. So more like Spencer's. Gosh, I loved Spencer's. I loved a fart joke, a stupid poster, you know, the cordoned off area in the back with dildos. I mean, I was a Spencer's girl.

Brooke Suchomel: 24:13

Did you get a note from your mom?

Kaykay Brady: 24:19

Holy shit. I should've, that may have worked.

Brooke Suchomel: 24:23

This is a reference to earlier episodes, y'all, when Kaykay...

Kaykay Brady: 24:26

Yeah, I tried to buy a Playgirl with a fake note from my mom. That shockingly did not work. Go figure. And then I also loved music, like music stores for sure. And then any of the bookstores.

Brooke Suchomel: 24:40

Did you have a favorite music or bookstore? Did you like, pick a tribe?

Kaykay Brady: 24:43

I can't even remember them. I know there was like, Waldenbooks, another type of one...

Brooke Suchomel: 24:49

B. Dalton?

Kaykay Brady: 24:50

Yeah, exactly. We had a Waldenbooks and a B. Dalton. And I was pretty equal opportunity, I think, to all of them. How about you?

Brooke Suchomel: 24:58

Yeah, I was definitely Waldenbooks hive, and Musicland hive, which then became Sam Goody. So yeah, we had a bookstore and a music store on the top level, and then a bookstore and a music store on the bottom level. And I stuck to the top level stores.

Kaykay Brady: 25:17

Are you a top or a bottom? You were a top!

Brooke Suchomel: 25:19

I was a top!

Kaykay Brady: 25:20

I was a power bottom.

Brooke Suchomel: 25:21

Yeah.

Kaykay Brady: 25:24

I don't know what that means. I was just shopping really hard on the bottom.

Brooke Suchomel: 25:28

So I would spend a lot of time in Waldenbooks and Musicland, and then a lot of time at Claire's. A lot of time at Claire's, looking for the mismatched dog and bone earrings of my dreams. Never found them.

Kaykay Brady: 25:45

We had another sort of earring book here. Lots of like, dog earrings and book earrings, and a lot of exp essing yourself through ear ings.

Brooke Suchomel: 25:55

Definitely. And then my friends and I spent a lot of time at the bulk candy store. This is when we would go down to the ground floor.

Kaykay Brady: 26:07

When you would deign to shop on the bottom floor.

Brooke Suchomel: 26:11

Because that is where Mr. Bulky was.

Kaykay Brady: 26:15

Mr. Bulky?!

Brooke Suchomel: 26:17

Mr. Bulky was the name of the bulk candy store.

Kaykay Brady: 26:20

Wow. Somebody did not give that a lot of thought.

Brooke Suchomel: 26:22

We would spend about 45 minutes there, just eating candy out of the bins until we would get kicked out by some 16 year old kid behind the counter.

Kaykay Brady: 26:29

Like without paying for it? You just went over and...

Brooke Suchomel: 26:31

Oh no. We were sampling.

Kaykay Brady: 26:32

So bad ass.

Brooke Suchomel: 26:35

We had to decide what to buy.

Kaykay Brady: 26:36

I mean, you think they would think this through and realize that's the first thing that's gonna happen, is a million kids are gonna come in and put their gross little germy hands all in the food.

Brooke Suchomel: 26:47

Well, to be fair, we were sanitary. We did use the little scoop. So we would scoop the candy out and put it in our hands, and we would try everything. And then we would go back and try everything again, and just like eat our weight in candy, then buy like one giant jawbreaker, if we didn't get kicked out first.

Kaykay Brady: 27:06

Fight the power!

Brooke Suchomel: 27:07

If we got kicked out, then we didn't buy anything.

Kaykay Brady: 27:09

Right. So they might as well let you stay and spend 25 cents. They might as well recoup some of that loss.

Brooke Suchomel: 27:17

So yeah, I mean, now I can look at this book and be like, "Oh, man, the way that we were being indoctrinated to be consumers," but at the time, I was immersed in it. I loved it. I was all about it, so...

Kaykay Brady: 27:30

Yeah, same. I mean, I was like, bring on the consumerism.

Brooke Suchomel: 27:34

Yeah, absolutely.

Kaykay Brady: 27:35

And that's part of why I think I really resonate with these books so hard is, you know, I too spent a lot of time sort of like imagining what I would buy and saving money, and building little businesses and stuff. So I totally get it. I remember that feeling of, sort of like, power, and it was really nice, because, you didn't feel very powerful ever. And it was one way that you could have some power, was like, make some money of your own and buy whatever the fuck you want. It was really beautiful in a time where like, it's a really powerless feeling time when you're 11, 12, 13.

Brooke Suchomel: 28:13

Yeah, it is. Probably, I mean, at least up into this point, you don't know personally what it's like as you continue to age. But, you know, looking back as somebody who is approaching middle age and saying like, when did I feel most powerless in my life? And yeah, I think it's when you're in that early adolescent stage, where you want to be independent, to an extent. You want to be able to be seen as an individual, and you're just kind of seen as like a quote unquote, "kid."

Kaykay Brady: 28:49

Yep.

Brooke Suchomel: 28:50

Like, an individual kid, but still a kid. And all kids can kind of be lumped together, which is also the other theme of this book.

Kaykay Brady: 28:58

Exactly. The twins, which, by the way, I call my breasts my twins. So the whole book, I was thinking about my boobs.

Brooke Suchomel: 29:05

Do you call them Marilyn and Carolyn?

Kaykay Brady: 29:08

No, they're not Marilyn and Carolyn, but they do give me trouble. I mean, equal parts joy and trouble, you know.

Brooke Suchomel: 29:15

And you also have a hard time telling them apart? Besides like, where the moles are placed?

Kaykay Brady: 29:20

Exactly. That's why they're the twins!

Brooke Suchomel: 29:24

Get them different bracelets put em around and just name them, so you'll know which one is which.

Kaykay Brady: 29:29

Makes me think of those like, stripper, you know...

Brooke Suchomel: 29:32

Oh, the tassels?

Kaykay Brady: 29:32

The tassels! Give em like, one purple, one pink.

Brooke Suchomel: 29:35

Yeah. Do they also have their own secret language? So they just communicate with each other and nobody else can understand them, and it's very frustrating for all involved?

Kaykay Brady: 29:44

Yeah, exactly. I don't know the language. I just live with them. I just try to manage them. Basically, I try to keep them happy. I try to like, occasionally keep them in a bra.

Brooke Suchomel: 29:54

Right. Keep em in line, while knowing that they're going to do their own damn thing.

Kaykay Brady: 30:00

Exactly.

Brooke Suchomel: 30:01

I hear you there. So yeah, what did you think about the way that the childhood struggle for self identity, especially given your experience as somebody who has worked with children in their attempts to express their identity, what did you think of Ann M's take on that in this book?

Kaykay Brady: 30:22

Well, I thought it was pretty masterful to use twins as a vehicle to explore that. Because twins are dealing with issues that all kids are dealing with, but they have this extra layer, where they have a sibling that's always going to be compared to them, and they're always going to be lumped in with them. So the typical issues of individuation are going to be multiplied. And so it's just a great vehicle to do it using twins. I thought it was really smart. How about you?

Brooke Suchomel: 30:56

Yeah, I thought it was interesting how you see the juxtaposition of the twins struggling to be seen as individuals. Their big problem is that their mom dresses them identically. We see over the course of the book, when ultimately Mallory is allowed to take them shopping and they're allowed to pick their own clothes, neither of them want to appear to the world in the way that their mom has decided they appear. They also have different tastes. One of them wants to wear a jeans skirt, and the other one wants to wear jeans. That's how different they are.

Kaykay Brady: 31:34

Night and fucking day.

Brooke Suchomel: 31:35

Night and day. But you know, they are feeling frustrated, and they're feeling unseen, so that's why they're ultimately acting out. That is where Mallory sort of gets on their bad side, when she watches them for the first time, and when she really addresses them as like a unit instead of as individuals. That's when they turn on her.

Kaykay Brady: 32:00

Yeah. They said at first, I think looking back, they thought at first she was gonna see them as individuals. Then she said something about them being so cute in their similar outfits, and they were like, "Oh, she's just like everybody else. She's just gonna see us as this like, cute set."

Brooke Suchomel: 32:15

Exactly. And Mallory is also struggling with her need to individuate as well.

Kaykay Brady: 32:22

Yeah.

Brooke Suchomel: 32:23

So you have Mallory constantly comparing herself to the other members of the Baby-sitters Club. She feels very young, she talks about how she wants to get a haircut, she wants to get her ears pierced. Like, she feels like she's not allowed to express herself in the way that she wants to be seen by the rest of the world. But when she is talking about who she is, she's always like, "I wish I could like take this from Dawn, and that from Claudia, and that from Mary Anne." She's really not quite sure yet who she is, without looking at herself in comparison to others, which I think, at that age, at 11? At least in my experience, that resonated with me.

Kaykay Brady: 33:15

Definitely.

Brooke Suchomel: 33:16

You're trying to figure out who you are, but you don't really know so much yet, because you just haven't had that life experience to see yourself as an individual outside of the other individuals around you.

Kaykay Brady: 33:31

Yeah. And it's also making me think, I think it's totally developmentally appropriate, age wise. And also, I think, you know, being women, it's like, women are also very encouraged to be very outside oriented, and also very comparison oriented. Whereas, just what we were talking about with movies and stuff, you see movies of boys doing their own thing and finding themselves and just like doing weird shit. And then girls, you're seeing much more like, what do they look like? Who are they associated with? So it also makes sense to me that this is a sort of gendered construct as well.

Brooke Suchomel: 34:11

Like, your identity... You see women represented in society as being decorative. You know, like with Bill and Ted. It's like, "And also, we should probably have a female character in here. Let's make it Joan of Arc, and it's a famous woman. There you go."

Kaykay Brady: 34:32

There's your one.

Brooke Suchomel: 34:33

Check and check, now we're properly representing everybody. So yeah, it's like you're decorative, and then also you're always seen in a relational standpoint. Like, what support do you provide to the hero? And the hero, you can rest assured, is going to be a male.

Kaykay Brady: 34:52

Yeah.

Brooke Suchomel: 34:52

So that's what you see. That's why finding yourself via comparison to others is what you do, because you're not really seen so much as an individual who has their own internal desires and abilities. If you're a girl, you're going to be seen in relation to the men that are ultimately leading the way.

Kaykay Brady: 35:17

Yeah. And also, I think you're taught not to trust any of your internal cues, whatever that might be. Your own sense of safety, your sense of hunger and your body, all the things that women are taught to systematically subvert our internal sense of who we are, what we want, and our own agency. That comes into play, too. And everything is instead handed to you as, "What are you going to look like?"

Brooke Suchomel: 35:47

Right. Because that's what your value is. Like, your skills and internal abilities aren't necessarily valued by society as a whole, because that's what men are valued for. So we don't need you to do that. We need you to be supportive and nurturing and pretty, so go do that.

Kaykay Brady: 36:04

Yeah, exactly.

Brooke Suchomel: 36:05

And then in that effort too, you were talking about trust, and at first I thought you were gonna say you're taught not to trust other women.

Kaykay Brady: 36:12

That too.

Brooke Suchomel: 36:14

Which is also the case. Because again, when you only will see one, maybe two women in the culture that you consume, it's like, you have to be the exceptional one. There's only room for one.

Kaykay Brady: 36:26

Yeah, and you have to fight them off. Exactly.

Brooke Suchomel: 36:28

So you have to fight them off. You can't find support in the other women around you that are in the same boat, because there isn't enough room for more than just a couple of you. So you better get to the top of that heap. And to do that, you can't support others, because you've got to be number one. It's that whole like, "I'm not here to make friends" that you see on all of the reality competition shows and stuff, because there can only be one winner.

Kaykay Brady: 36:55

Horizontal oppression, dude.

Brooke Suchomel: 36:57

Totally.

Kaykay Brady: 36:57

It's wicked. It's funny, too, to think about that in the context of this world, where Ann M. has created a world where the women are building and controlling the situation, and they're making room for really everybody. Except for those hussies, what were their names? The Baby-sitters Agency.

Brooke Suchomel: 37:18

The Agency, those girls that hang out at the mall?

Kaykay Brady: 37:22

Yeah!

Brooke Suchomel: 37:22

Remember? The Baby-sitters Agency, they're so bad, they hang out at the mall. And what are we doing in this book?

Kaykay Brady: 37:30

Now where are we?

Brooke Suchomel: 37:31

Yeah.

Kaykay Brady: 37:31

Multiple piercings, at the mall!

Brooke Suchomel: 37:34

The Baby-sitters Club has become the Baby-sitters Agency. Whoa. Yeah, no, you're right. Like, I think that is why this book series stuck with me so hard as a kid, why I would like die for this series. Because this was the one place that I found women doing the damn thing.

Kaykay Brady: 38:03

Yeah, totally.

Brooke Suchomel: 38:05

Like, the equivalent of girl power. You know, where it's not girls judging other girls, to an extent. I mean, that does still live here.

Kaykay Brady: 38:14

I mean, it's pretty light, you know, especially through the lens of the time, it's pretty light.

Brooke Suchomel: 38:19

Yeah. And it jumps out when you see it, because it's unusual, as opposed to it being like, "Well, of course it is," so you don't even notice it because it's so common. When you see it, it's jarring because you're like, "Whoa, wait, I didn't think that this is the world that we were living in."

Kaykay Brady: 38:32

Right.

Brooke Suchomel: 38:33

So I think that that's why the series was so powerful, because it was filling this gap in a culture that didn't see, not only didn't see women, but certainly didn't see teen and preteen girls as anything other than like, you would see teenage girls represented as basically sexual objects or else nerds to laugh at. Like, those are the two options that you really had for seeing young women and girls represented in the culture. And that's one of the reasons why, at the beginning of each of these episodes, we talk about what else was in the culture at that time, to give you that framing of how this was so different. So even when there are things that you know, again, were progressive at the time but now seem regressive, to understand how progressive that actually was at the time, because we just were not given that space, and frankly, respect.

Kaykay Brady: 39:37

It didn't really exist.

Brooke Suchomel: 39:38

Yeah. So I'm very grateful for that. Although, again, it's not perfect. These books are not perfect. Nothing is perfect.

Kaykay Brady: 39:46

Yeah. And the nice thing is, you know, it shows you again that soup that everybody was swimming in and then it gives you a chance to deconstruct it. And that hopefully also gives you a chance to see some of the weak spots and think about, okay, where are our weak spots today? So not only just constructing what you're seeing in this one author, this one time in history, but the ideal is it also helps you move that forward and look at the time now. That's the beauty of deconstructing things, and holding the good and holding the bad, and exploring both of them.

Brooke Suchomel: 40:23

Yeah, it's not just saying, "Oh, this was problematic," just to say, Hey look, this was problematic," and then move on. It's, "Okay, well, what about it was problematic? Why was it that way? And what are the lessons that we can learn from that so that we know not to replicate that in the future?"

Kaykay Brady: 40:41

Yeah, exactly.

Brooke Suchomel: 40:41

And what are the good things that we see here that we can build upon?

Kaykay Brady: 40:44

Yeah, totally. Totally agreed.

Brooke Suchomel: 40:46

So to that point, what were the good things that you saw to build upon in this book?

Kaykay Brady: 40:52

I thought it was great the way that- well, it's sort of a double edged sword. The way that Mallory really can see the twins and learn from the twins is beautiful. It sort of gets to this type of idea that we use in psychotherapy all the time, which is, behavior is communication with kids. Well, with anybody, but especially with kids, right? Like, instead of seeing a tantrum as like some kid trying to do something to you, it's a communication. And also, this is the new wave of dog training. It used to be like, "Bad dog." Now, it's like, what does that dog need? Is that dog afraid? Does that dog need a different situation? And so the world is sort of moving towards this more understanding model of, behavior is communication. Let's try to understand it. And let's try to shape it to the outcome that's most beneficial. You really see an example of this in Mallory, and I think it probably represents the fact that Ann M. was probably part of that new wave of child psychology at the time as a teacher, when she was a teacher. So I thought that was really awesome. I think it's complicated the way that it plays out for Mallory, because rather than sort of bringing that to the parent, like, "Hey, behavior is communication, and here's what I'm seeing," she tries to fix it. And she kind of does fix it, right?

Brooke Suchomel: 42:17

Right.

Kaykay Brady: 42:18

And it's like everything is on Mallory's shoulders, really. The mom just gets to sort of show up. And Mallory says, "Oh, the kids want this, and the kids want that," and actually negotiates for the kids. So she's not helping the kids and the mom to communicate. She's really stepping in and taking it all on herself, which is sort of a missed opportunity for the kids and the mom to grow closer, number one. And to also learn how to- I mean, shit, she's not a therapist, she can't do it, but...

Brooke Suchomel: 42:44

No, she's 11.

Kaykay Brady: 42:45

She's 11 years old.

Brooke Suchomel: 42:46

She's 11, yeah.

Kaykay Brady: 42:47

But you see the really awesome parts of that. And then you see the harder parts of that for Mallory, I think, in this book.

Brooke Suchomel: 42:54

In terms of the fact that these girls that she's watching, they have their own language that they speak to each other. She can't communicate with them. They're really refusing to interact with her or any of the other babysitters. They are really super creepy in one chapter where they like skitter about the house.

Kaykay Brady: 43:13

Shining. They are The Shining. Pure Shining.

Brooke Suchomel: 43:16

It's like The Shining meets The Ring, where they go off running, and then she goes to find em and like, one's just sitting there in a chair. And then she's like, "Which one are you?" and then one goes running away. It's super creepy. It's like the stuff of nightmares. And when you picture that with, like, children in matching kilts?

Kaykay Brady: 43:34

It's frightening. It's very frightening.

Brooke Suchomel: 43:37

Nightmare fuel, for sure. But she is like, "I just don't know what to do about them." And she says, "I don't know why they're doing this." Never asks them, right? So it's funny how in these books, I think you see really good communication between the babysitters. It's like they're like, "Okay, within our generation, within this circle of trust, we can talk about things. This is where we come to try to figure things out." But it's like, "figure things out." It's like, make conclusions, make inferences. Versus talking to the person that you're dealing with, whether that is the girls or the mom, directly.

Kaykay Brady: 44:22

Yeah.

Brooke Suchomel: 44:23

There's no working things out with them. It is, go into your little group and figure out what's going on. You guys decide. You guys crack the code and figure out the mystery, and then you go and talk to the person. You're like, "I've figured this out, and here's what we're going to do." So it really does put that burden solely on the shoulders of the person who was trying to work through the problem.

Kaykay Brady: 44:49

Yeah, not only does it put the burden on the shoulders of Mallory, but it's also kind of like you're robbing the other people of self actualization, because rather than talking to them and having them better understand what's going on for them, start to like, listen to themselves and know themselves a little more, you're just figuring it out for them. You know what I mean? So that's also a missed opportunity, for both the little kids who really need that modeled for them, right? Like, how do you know yourself better? You know, because the answer's really gotta come from them. And also for the mom, who also needs to know how to do that for the kids. But instead, you're right, it's like Mallory takes all that responsibility on herself, and it's a real big burden for her. And it's a missed opportunity for the other characters, too. Yeah. So was that what she's fighting? Like, what did you come out with what they were fighting in this book? I have the word "individuation." It seems like pretty much all the characters are fighting to individuate, both the little kids, the medium kids, and the bigger kids. And they're using the tools of communication. Interestingly enough, I feel like this book, you do see more communication happening. Whereas normally, they're never involving parents. They won't even sit down and talk to the parents. It's interesting. It's sort of like baby steps in the direction of communicating with parents, so it's like they're starting to use those tools. But yeah, I thought the central struggle was definitely individuation. What did you have? Yeah, I had that same thing. You know, the struggle for self identity, with the twins wanting to be seen as individuals and also with Mallory wanting to be seen as a preteen, effectively. A person that is not, just looks the way that her mom and dad or whoever want her to look. She's able to express herself. I think she's she's really trying to figure out who she is. You see that with the comparison to others all the time. Yeah, definitely.

Brooke Suchomel: 46:48

And then yeah, I think the tool that they're using ultimately is assertiveness, but it takes a long time to get there. Like, you see them not being assertive at all.

Kaykay Brady: 46:57

Even Kristy.

Brooke Suchomel: 46:58

Kristy is not Kristy in this book.

Kaykay Brady: 47:00

Yeah, very uncharacteristic.

Brooke Suchomel: 47:02

Besides her refusal to get her ears pierced. That's Kristy.

Kaykay Brady: 47:06

I was the same, Kristy. But yeah, look, if they were really gonna hold appropriate boundaries, you don't babysit for these twins, because they're having struggles that make it unsafe. Yeah. Kristy's solution is basically like, "Okay, we'll just tell her that we're too busy if she calls." Right, "We'll lie to her," which is very un-Kristy.

Brooke Suchomel: 47:27

Or pawn him off on Logan, which I actually kind of appreciate that, I have to say, because Logan...

Kaykay Brady: 47:33

Fuck yeah. He gets a pass, too much.

Brooke Suchomel: 47:35

Goddammit. Logan shows up, it just set my teeth on edge, Logan's appearance because it's totally like that friend, you know, Mary Anne is just like, "Oh, guys! Look who's here!" And her fucking boyfriend is just sitting there, when like, nobody invited Logan! And so everybody is just, you know, a little bit uncomfortable. And then it's time for dues to be paid. Logan doesn't have to pay dues, tthat's pointed out. It's time for everybody to read the notebook. Logan doesn't have to read the notebook. Logan doesn't have to answer the phone. Logan just gets to sit there and eat Claudia's junk food and take the jobs that get thrown his way. So yeah, give him the girls that won't communicate. He wouldn't know what the hell to do with these girls. He wouldn't know what to do.

Kaykay Brady: 48:20

It would be interesting. I mean, she doesn't even try to explore that fictional plotline. No. Oh, God, that one could be fun. What did you have for 80s moments, besides the whole fucking book? The mall. Right, the whole fucking book and the mall. I also had, they talked about going to rent movies for a weekend, and you're going to watch the movie multiple times, because you rented it for the entire weekend. So 80s, right? Like, we didn't have streaming, it was just like these local little video stores or whatever, and you would get a movie for the whole weekend and watch it four times. Yeah. Because who knows when you're going to get that again? Yeah, and you paid good money for this movie.

Brooke Suchomel: 49:03

You paid like $3.99.

Kaykay Brady: 49:04

Yeah, back in the 80s, that's significant.

Brooke Suchomel: 49:07

Definitely.

Kaykay Brady: 49:08

I also had those koala bear clips. I remember these, they like clipped on your pencil. They were these little adorable plush koala bears with these awesome little hands. Anyway, I remember that.

Brooke Suchomel: 49:21

Yeah. Which is, again, a perfect encapsulation of the 80s. It's like, just get something that serves no purpose whatsoever.

Kaykay Brady: 49:27

It's completely pointless, but you need it.

Brooke Suchomel: 49:29

You must have it. If you don't have it, you are going to be shunned from society, if you don't have this completely pointless thing.

Kaykay Brady: 49:36

That you didn't even know you wanted or needed until it was created. Or that you wouldn't have wanted or needed if nobody else had it. But everybody else has it, so you must have it so that you can still be accepted by society. That's 80s, for sure. So what did you have?

Brooke Suchomel: 49:52

Well obviously, conspicuous consumption. Because you get it not just at the mall, the malling, the mall as a character and a verb. But you also get it with, Kristy's mom and Watson are just off at estate sales again. That's their past time because God knows Watson doesn't have enough, right? You know, he's a millionaire in a mansion who has a fucking tree in his house for some reason. He definitely needs to go buy more pointless shit at estate sales. That's what Watson and Kristy's mom do as their hobby. It's kind of like grave robbing, a little bit. You know? Where it's like, "Oh, someone just died. Let's go walk through heir house and buy all their shit."

Kaykay Brady: 49:55

Very high class grave robbing.

Brooke Suchomel: 50:13

Yeah, yeah. So you've got conspicuous consumption up and down the board, and you also get the line from the twins after they go shopping with Mallory, quote, "All our money is gone, but we don't care." That's a direct line. And they're so happy. They're so happy to have no more money, but jeans. Life is good.

Kaykay Brady: 51:02

They're delighted. They're absolutely delighted. They're fulfilled.

Brooke Suchomel: 51:05

That was very 80s to me. And then also, pushdown socks. A lot of focus on pushdown socks.

Kaykay Brady: 51:11

What are pushdown socks? I had a note of this. I had no idea what it was.

Brooke Suchomel: 51:15

Pushdown socks were basically leg warmers that go over your toes. I wore them frequently with stirrup pants. Do you remember stirrup pants? The stirrup pants phenomenon?

Kaykay Brady: 51:27

Ah, yeah, okay. They were like black pants with like a loop? Or maybe not black, whatever color? I had every freaking color of the rainbow. I mean, that's basically what I wore. Stirrup pants are just like leggings that had a hook over your foot. So you would wear those, and then you put the big pushdown socks on top. They're these huge slouchy socks that could go up to your knees if you wanted them to, but you didn't. You just shoved em down. Because you're cool, so you shove em down.

Brooke Suchomel: 51:54

Yeah. You'd usually get them in a contrasting color to your stirrup pants, too.

Kaykay Brady: 51:58

Ah, that does sound very fresh.

Brooke Suchomel: 52:00

Yeah, like, there's been this whole 80s revival, and I'm like, "Is anybody coming back with the stirrup pants?"

Kaykay Brady: 52:05

You're like, "I'm really waiting for this."

Brooke Suchomel: 52:07

I am actually kind of waiting for this, because leggings are everywhere.

Kaykay Brady: 52:10

Well, just start it. Start it.

Brooke Suchomel: 52:12

Start it?

Kaykay Brady: 52:13

Yeah. That's my approach, at least.

Brooke Suchomel: 52:14

Should we come up with a Baby-sitters Fight Club line of stirrup pants?

Kaykay Brady: 52:18

Yeah!

Brooke Suchomel: 52:19

That would actually be pretty fucking rad.

Kaykay Brady: 52:22

That'd be dope. Pushdown socks and stirrup pants.

Brooke Suchomel: 52:24

Listeners, if you would buy a pair of Baby-sitters Fight Club stirrup pants...

Kaykay Brady: 52:27

Let us know.

Brooke Suchomel: 52:28

Please let us know. Hit us up on social media, send us an email, because I'm willing to look into this. I'm not kidding.

Kaykay Brady: 52:36

Super fresh.

Brooke Suchomel: 52:38

No promises, but I'm into it. So yeah, all of that is 80s. The fact that Mallory would rather have a makeover than shelter and comfort, when she's talking with Jessi and it's like, "If you could have anything, what would you have?" And she's like, "Ah, I'd have a haircut! I'd not have my braces," you know?

Kaykay Brady: 52:55

Yeah, it says a lot.

Brooke Suchomel: 52:56

The focus on appearances throughout this was very 80s.

Kaykay Brady: 53:00

Yeah, it is interesting that it's sort of presented without a lot of thought. But I suppose that's very of the time. Like I said, I think we're still stuck here, and we're just starting to critically look at some of these things. But back then, it just wasn't even a topic of conversation. No, cuz we were emerging from Reagan, into Dad Bush. It was like, conspicuous consumption was a virtue. Yeah.

Brooke Suchomel: 53:29

I mean, that was American. "Be a real American, go buy a bunch of shit."

Kaykay Brady: 53:34

Yeah, definitely.

Brooke Suchomel: 53:35

You even get that with the book, where there is an extended overview on how to do like comparison shopping.

Kaykay Brady: 53:42

With the kids! The little kids, they're like seven and eight years old. They're like, "Okay, we're gonna go to every store, find the things we like, and look at how much they cost. But we're gonna go to all the stores, so we know sort of like the landscape of everything we could buy and so we could choose what we really want." The cognitive skills required to initiate a plan like that just seem beyond a seven and eight year old.

Brooke Suchomel: 54:06

Well, Mallory's the one that coaches them through it.

Kaykay Brady: 54:09

Oh, really? I thought it came from the kids.

Brooke Suchomel: 54:12

Mallory's like, "So here's what we're going to do." The kids immediately buy into it. They're like, "Oh yeah, this sounds great."

Kaykay Brady: 54:17

She's teaching them how to do this.

Brooke Suchomel: 54:18

She's teaching them, right. It's giving kids reading this an overview of how to be a consumer in America.

Kaykay Brady: 54:25

Yeah, it's really amazing.

Brooke Suchomel: 54:28

And I remembered- so when I was in high school, the last week of school, I think our teachers just didn't want to teach, so our school would have this thing that was called Mini Courses. You would pick what you wanted to do instead of going to school for the last week of school. One of them was trout fishing, which is basically, everybody who signed up for trout fishing, and I ended up doing that later on, because I was like, "Trout fishing? I don't wanna go fuckin trout fishing," but no, no, everybody just brought cigarettes and beers.

Kaykay Brady: 54:59

Yeah. I was gonna say, trout fishing sounds like where it's at.

Brooke Suchomel: 55:03

Yeah, and the teacher who was the chaperone for trout fishing was literally deaf. He wouldn't put his hearing aids in and he just wanted to go trout fishing. So he would just spend all of his time fishing.

Kaykay Brady: 55:14

He was off the clock, yo!

Brooke Suchomel: 55:15

Yeah. You'd be like, "Hey, Oz!" Everybody called him Oz. He'd be smoking his Marlboro Reds and he'd just lift up his hand and wave with his Marlboro Red as he fished. Before I learned that that's what trout fishing really was, and that's why everyone chose trout fishing, I chose the mini course on smart shopping.

Kaykay Brady: 55:37

Oh, shit.

Brooke Suchomel: 55:38

The mini course for smart shopping is they just took us to every mall in the area. Just dropped us off at the mall.

Kaykay Brady: 55:45

That's smart. Just go there. That's all you need to know, go there.

Brooke Suchomel: 55:51

Yeah, we're supposed to be learning about comparison shopping, but they just dropped us off at the mall.

Kaykay Brady: 55:57

They just wanted a week off, c'mon.

Brooke Suchomel: 55:59

Yeah, seriously. But it was conspicuous consumption as a virtue, as a virtuous activity, as like the thing that keeps our economy rolling. That's why, in a consumer based society, you need to have high wages to pay for the things. That's the part of Reaganomics that got a little lost because it wasn't actually about that, it was about stealing from us, PS. Anyway, we hadn't learned that all the way yet. So yeah, the smart shopping was definitely not just 80s, but 90s.

Kaykay Brady: 56:33

I wish we had that. We did not have that.

Brooke Suchomel: 56:36

You didn't have smart shopping at your prep school in the woods?

Kaykay Brady: 56:42

"They didn't take you trout fishing?"

Brooke Suchomel: 56:45

I'm pretty sure your fellow classmates didn't need to learn about bargain hunting.

Kaykay Brady: 56:50

No, definitely not.

Brooke Suchomel: 56:51

I think they're pretty okay. Yeah, how to get the best deal on shoes at Payless, I don't think that was really their concern.

Kaykay Brady: 57:01

Yeah, no, my fellow prep school kids were just, they'd lay in the hall with the LL Bean catalog and order everything. And I'd be like, holy shit, these kids got money.

Brooke Suchomel: 57:11

Definitely not my experience. The other thing that I had, which, speaking of progressive at the time, but problematic now, looking at it, was the overview of Jessi and Mallory's racial differences being cast as "don't matter at all."

Kaykay Brady: 57:25

Oh, right. I did clock that. Yeah, it's very like, "I don't see color," which today hopefully we understand a little more why that's problematic. Back then, maybe felt very United Colors of Benetton progressive.

Brooke Suchomel: 57:39

Right. And not understanding the difference between "don't" and "shouldn't." You know, the imprecise language, how we're not really saying what we actually mean when you say that skin color in America "doesn't matter at all."

Kaykay Brady: 57:53

Yeah, you're invalidating a tremendous amount of extremely intense experience.

Brooke Suchomel: 57:57

Absolutely. That would be nice if it was true, but it's not. So you can say it shouldn't matter, it shouldn't make a difference in the way that we are treated, it shouldn't have an impact on our potential to succeed in this society. But it does. And so when you say it doesn't matter, the more that you say that, the more that you actually start to think that, and so when people point out ways that it's like, "Well no no no, wait, this is happening to me," you resist taking that in as factual.

Kaykay Brady: 58:02

Yeah, that's exactly what I was gonna say. As a queer person, I feel like you got this a lot in the 2000s, where people weren't openly hostile towards you anymore, but they'd be like, "Just stop talking about it. Why do you talk about it so much?" They just wanted you to like, go away. "We don't want to hear about your experience." And that sucks.

Brooke Suchomel: 58:44

Like, "We'll allow you to assimilate, but you must assimilate. And part of assimilating means don't say anything that might make us feel uncomfortable."

Kaykay Brady: 58:52

Right, "Or have to think critically about our own place."

Brooke Suchomel: 58:56

Definitely. So that was very 80s. It's also very 90s. Very 2000s. It's very 2010s. Definitely big pockets today. But I do think that we're at a point now where, you know, at the time when I was reading this, I can guarantee you I would have been like, "Yes, that's right. It doesn't matter, and that's a noble thing!" So now to be like, "But let's be honest, it does." It's good that we're at a point where we can see why that's problematic in a way that we didn't see at the time.

Kaykay Brady: 59:24

Yeah. And also, again, it's that sort of learning how things work and psychological weaknesses and vulnerabilities in people, and then pressing it forward to be like, it's always really important to understand we don't probably have it right yet, and it always needs to be a work in progress. There's got to be humility, and there's got to be listening.

Brooke Suchomel: 59:46

For sure. Hopefully, we're getting there. I think we certainly see that in the TV version of this book series. That's a good sign, that's a promising sign that progress is possible, even if it's not fully realized yet, because it's never gonna be realized, right? You're always pushing.

Kaykay Brady: 1:00:02

Yeah, and a lot of the difference is celebrated versus just like, "It doesn't exist and it shouldn't!"

Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:07

Right.

Kaykay Brady: 1:00:08

In the show, you know, you just see a lot of celebration of a lot of diversity in a lot of ways.

Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:13

So even though Jessi pretty much just makes an appearance in this book to reassure the reader that her differences with Mallory are effectively non existent, doesn't really matter, and we don't get much more time with Jessi besides the fact that they get their ears pierced together. The next book in the series, Jessi will come front and center.

Kaykay Brady: 1:00:34

All right!

Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:34

So we go from a Mallory book to a Jessi book. And this Jessi book is Jessi Ramsey, Pet-sitter. That's gonna be our next episode.

Kaykay Brady: 1:00:44

Hopefully there's not malling in this one.

Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:48

Yeah, Jessi takes a dog to the mall. No, that's much more 2020, 2021 than 1989.

Kaykay Brady: 1:00:54

Well, that's gonna be my question, because what was petsitting in 1989? Like, you're barely doing anything babysitting, really. I mean, I know in this book, they're babysitting very well, but come on. In reality, you were just sitting on the couch eating chips and like, hoping they didn't die. So what's petsitting in 89? I can't even imagine.

Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:12

Jessi goes next door twice a day to put fresh water in a bowl. I dunno.

Kaykay Brady: 1:01:17

Yeah, right, just opens the dog door. Boom. There you go. That's petsitting.

Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:22

So yeah, that's a good question.

Kaykay Brady: 1:01:25

Ah, I'm so excited.

Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:26

1989 was not the days of pet hotels and pet resorts and your pets are your children because, hi, millennials, you can't afford to bear children. So your pets are your child now. Congratulations, go enroll them in college, effectively.

Kaykay Brady: 1:01:43

So it's all the fucking like "science" quote unquote at this time was like dominance based, which has changed with, what's her name, Jean? Jean Whatshername changed all of that animal behavior, but back then it was like crazy nonsense wolf-based dominance non-science.

Brooke Suchomel: 1:02:02

Alpha.

Kaykay Brady: 1:02:03

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I don't know if we're gonna get alpha behavior from Jessi or is Ann M. gonna present us something more progressive and forward thinking?

Brooke Suchomel: 1:02:13

Actually, it wasn't the person that you're thinking of who changed the game with dog training.

Kaykay Brady: 1:02:19

It was Ann M?

Brooke Suchomel: 1:02:20

It was Ann M. Martin, with Jessi Ramsey, Pet-sitter, book number 22 in the Baby-sitters Club franchise. I hope so! We're gonna find out in our next episode, and I can't wait for that. But until then...

Kaykay Brady: 1:02:34

Just keep sittin'! [THEME] Multiple piercings, at the mall!