Transcript - BSFC Netflix #10: Hello, Camp Moosehead! Part 2
Brooke Suchomel: 0:18
Welcome to the Baby-sitters Fight Club, where the first rule is, you don't talk about Fight Club. Instead, you talk about the battles fought and lessons learned in the Baby-sitters Club series of books by Ann M. Martin and the corresponding television show on Netflix. I'm Brooke Suchomel, an editor who's revisiting these books after 30 years.
Kaykay Brady: 0:37
And I'm Kaykay Brady, I'm a therapist and I'm new to the books.
Brooke Suchomel: 0:41
And in this episode, we are discussing Episode 10 and the season finale of Season One of the Netflix series, so the final...
Kaykay Brady: 0:54
Sad! It's sad it's over!
Brooke Suchomel: 0:56
I know.
Kaykay Brady: 0:57
I mean, I know the new season's coming, but...
Brooke Suchomel: 0:59
The new season is coming, and we will talk about our plans for our coverage of the new season at the end of this episode. But we will be wrapping, today, our coverage of the first season with Hello, Camp Moosehead! Part Two, so we get the resolution of the cliffhanger that we had in our last episode. And the Netflix description of this episode is quote, "As Stacey deals with a new normal, Kristy leads a crucial search, Dawn and Claudia start a revolution, and Mary Anne finds her place in the spotlight." End quote. And Stacey's new normal is, as Kaykay said, having poison ivy on her face.
Kaykay Brady: 1:40
I was relating to this so hard. I've gotten- when I was little, I was so allergic to poison ivy. I've definitely had it where both eyes were swelled shut. And I wrote a book about it in second grade, called Poison Ivy, of course, and I wish I could find this book. It's so melodramatic, it's like, "And I woke up and I was covered in poison ivy! And I couldn't see!" It was just very melodramatic. There was like an author's description and it was like, "Kaykay loves to play sports," and you know, something else super gay.
Brooke Suchomel: 2:10
Uh huh, "... and have poison ivy. These are her two favorite pastimes.”
Kaykay Brady: 2:16
Yeah, so she had poison ivy. She had it real bad. Stacey's eye was swelled shut. Laine had it too, but not quite as bad.
Brooke Suchomel: 2:24
So Stacey and Laine were forced to bunk together in the infirmary, where they watch Days of Our Lives on a tube TV on a wheelie cart. Which felt like a nice little shout out to the 80s kids that were watching it. I felt seen by that.
Kaykay Brady: 2:40
We see you, Brooke.
Brooke Suchomel: 2:42
Cuz I mean, that's just kind of like always the the dream right? Is like, oh man, how can I...
Kaykay Brady: 2:48
How can I go inside and watch TV?
Brooke Suchomel: 2:50
How can I go- yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's me.
Kaykay Brady: 2:53
That was like Meany's quote last time.
Brooke Suchomel: 2:55
I know. I'm like, this entire time, I could have just been finding a convenient patch of poison ivy...
Kaykay Brady: 3:01
And rubbing all over your fuckin' face, just so you can watch, I mean, worth it, right? A lot of plots.
Brooke Suchomel: 3:05
Hell yeah! Hell yeah. I'm mad. I'm mad about all of that TV time that I lost as child, so yeah, relating to Meany on that. So again, a lot going on in this. A lot of plots. Did anything jump out at you as being like the main plot that was driving the action?
Kaykay Brady: 3:26
Well, I felt like one plot takes up the most air and creates a lot of subplots, and that is sort of like, the revolution. So they revolt against the camp. They build like a Les Miz style, what do you call it?
Brooke Suchomel: 3:41
Barricades?
Kaykay Brady: 3:42
Yeah. They do like a Les Miz style barricade directly outside of the theater where they're putting on Paris Magic.
Brooke Suchomel: 3:50
Which is like a Les Miz knock off.
Kaykay Brady: 3:53
I was gonna say, like, it sounded like Les Miz. French Revolution, what is this shit?
Brooke Suchomel: 3:58
Yeah, so they said in the first episode, Part One, that Paris Magic, it's like time traveling to the French Revolution. So it's like Les Miz, but with time travel. And I enjoyed the line from Mary Anne at the very beginning, when she sees that her star is going to be unable to perform because her eyes are swollen shut due to poison ivy, she says that Stacey "looks like she has leprosy" and that "Mignonette can't have leprosy." So Stacey's character in Paris Magic is "Mignonette."
Kaykay Brady: 4:38
So is Paris Magic a real thing?
Brooke Suchomel: 4:40
No. So this is-
Kaykay Brady: 4:43
Oh, I see, so they couldn't use Les Miz for whatever reason.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:46
No no no, this is Paris Magic from the books. Do you remember when we talked about-
Kaykay Brady: 4:46
Yeah, I do. I do. That's why I'm confused. I was like, Is this real? Is this not?
Brooke Suchomel: 4:54
Yeah, that's why I had asked you, I was like, So wait, Paris Magic isn't real, right?
Kaykay Brady: 4:58
Oh, right.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:59
And you assured me that it was not.
Kaykay Brady: 5:01
Yeah, cuz I looked it up again, like, Is this real?
Brooke Suchomel: 5:04
No, no, it's a figment of Ann M. Martin's imagination that has been spun into being a time traveling Les Miz in this TV show.
Kaykay Brady: 5:14
Yeah, it's kind of like Outlander.
Brooke Suchomel: 5:15
Sure.
Kaykay Brady: 5:16
It's like French Outlander, for all you straight ladies out there. You know, I watched like three episodes of Outlander and I was like, Okay, so this is like Xena for straight ladies.
Brooke Suchomel: 5:26
I'll take your word for it. I haven't seen it. But I do know that there's a lot of horny middle aged women for Outlander. Like, super horny middle aged women for Outlander.
Kaykay Brady: 5:36
And it's like, medium level production value, but just kind of like, embracing the camp. You know, that's very Xena. And then of course, there's just this like, hot period character.
Brooke Suchomel: 5:48
I just love thinking about how a bunch of executives at the production company are just sitting around trying to think about what they could do. They're like, "What about Xena for straight ladies? Outlander."
Kaykay Brady: 6:02
Yeah, that's it. In my opinion, that's exactly what happened. When I was watching Outlander, that's what I thought.
Brooke Suchomel: 6:08
Okay. I don't enjoy TV made for straight ladies. So perhaps that's why...
Kaykay Brady: 6:12
Bless your heart. Yeah, this is why we welcome you into the gay circle. You're never gonna throw Outlander on us. I have a friend who, he's like, "You know, when I see shows that are too straight, I just think, 'Not for me.'" That's what he says.
Brooke Suchomel: 6:26
Same. Same.
Kaykay Brady: 6:27
We've borrowed that phrase. So you know, we see like, Fuckboy Island and shit like that? We're like, "Not for us." Not for us.
Brooke Suchomel: 6:35
No, most things in life are too straight for me, so I relate to that.
Kaykay Brady: 6:39
Well, this is why all your friends are lesbians, or many of your friends are lesbians.
Brooke Suchomel: 6:42
Yeah, exactly. I feel at home. So that main plot is Dawn basically leading a general strike, which I wrote down as, "Dawn leads general strike. Fuck yes." Because I was so goddamn happy. Like, I think we could all be taking Dawn's words to heart right now.
Kaykay Brady: 7:01
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 7:02
That's just what I'm gonna say about that.
Kaykay Brady: 7:04
It's very powerful.
Brooke Suchomel: 7:05
Yeah, because she makes an appeal to let Claudia out, remove her from being remanded to her cabin, where she is stuck and only able to communicate via FaceTime, which she uses to ask for three more bags of Cool Ranch Doritos. Which again, I felt very seen.
Kaykay Brady: 7:27
Oh, you rock with Cool Ranch?
Brooke Suchomel: 7:29
Oh, I rock with Cool Ranch hard. Do you not rock with Cool Ranch?
Kaykay Brady: 7:32
I can't stand Cool Ranch, but I can eat Nacho Cheese til the cows come home.
Brooke Suchomel: 7:37
Oh my god. Cool Ranch Doritos were peak snack food for me as a child. If I could only have one thing to munch on after school while I watched Duck Tales? Believe me, Cool Ranch Doritos was it.
Kaykay Brady: 7:54
I understand. It's like Cool Ranch Doritos to me are like the Rolling Stones. I get that people like them, and I understand that they're probably qualitatively pretty good. I just really don't want to eat them.
Brooke Suchomel: 8:07
Yeah, that's me with Seinfeld. I've tried. I've tried. Again, to use a phrase that we heard just a couple of minutes ago, "Not for me."
Kaykay Brady: 8:16
Not for you.
Brooke Suchomel: 8:17
Not for me. Cool Ranch Doritos? Very much for me. Only time in my adult life that I went to Taco Bell? You're damn right it was when the Cool Ranch Doritos Tacos, Doritos Loco came out. Hell yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 8:31
I didn't even know this happened.
Brooke Suchomel: 8:32
Hell yeah. You can get a chicken taco that has a Cool Ranch Dorito shell. You're like, "That sounds foul," and I'm like, that's everything that I want.
Kaykay Brady: 8:40
No, I would definitely try that.
Brooke Suchomel: 8:41
Okay, it's really good.
Kaykay Brady: 8:42
It's probably not gluten free. I do have a gluten allergy, I probably can't eat that.
Brooke Suchomel: 8:46
Yeah, Taco Bell is probably not a good place to go if you have if you have any sort of digestive sensitivities whatsoever. Do not recommend Taco Bell. Taco Bell? Not for you.
Kaykay Brady: 8:57
I remember, my stepmom once- we went to Taco Bell, and she's from Brazil, she'd never had anything like Taco Bell, and she asked for suggestions on what to get. I was like, Just stick with plain, like, get yourself like a cheese quesadilla or a chicken taco. Nope. She went with the Grand Boeuf, the Grand Beef, the big beef burrito.
Brooke Suchomel: 9:17
Did she get like a Crunchwrap Supreme?
Kaykay Brady: 9:20
Yeah, and within ten minutes she was like, "Oh, Kaykay."
Brooke Suchomel: 9:24
She was hurting?
Kaykay Brady: 9:24
She was so sick. Oh, she was in bed for like four hours, and I told her, "Don't get the Grand Boeuf."
Brooke Suchomel: 9:30
See, I thought that she might have just relished it, considering how much she enjoyed, the first time that I met her, when you told me that she had an affinity for weird American foods-
Kaykay Brady: 9:44
Like pigs in blankets. She loves pigs in blankets.
Brooke Suchomel: 9:47
I rolled up with some Ritz crackers and some motherfucking Easy Cheese from a spray can, and she ate that shit up, like a good Midwestern woman. I was so proud of her.
Kaykay Brady: 9:59
Yeah, I think she relished the eating of it. It was just- and I think this is pretty common, right? It's not that you're like, not enjoying the eating. It's you're not enjoying the fallout. Which- so fitting for this episode, because they're dealing with a lot of fallout from their actions.
Brooke Suchomel: 10:19
Yeah. And there's some pain involved there, as with the Crunchwrap Supreme.
Kaykay Brady: 10:25
Yeah. And I just, you know, I'll just go right for it, which is, it seems like they're sort of fighting the consequences of standing up to the system.
Brooke Suchomel: 10:35
Hmm, yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 10:36
And the cool thing, too, is that there are a lot of consequences. And some of them even harm their friends, right? Mary Anne's play gets temporarily harmed. And the really cool thing about the show is like, all of that gets to have space. So it's not like, this is the good guys, this is the bad guys, these are the actions that the good guys take, and they're perfect. They're perfect actions that don't have any consequences for others. There are actions that people take that harm others, and then they're allowed to talk about that. They're allowed to let that be. To me, it's crazy to see a show that is allowing so many perspectives and never narrowing it into good guy, bad guy. Good choices, bad choices. Right? It's like a very "yes and," and that is really fucking cool.
Brooke Suchomel: 11:33
Give me an example where you see that play out in this episode.
Kaykay Brady: 11:37
For example, the barricade blocks people from going to the play, which temporarily blocks the play from happening. And Mary Anne goes to Dawn and says, Dude, you're fucking my play. And then Dawn is basically like, I hear you, like, yes. You know, she doesn't dismiss her or say, your play is stupid. I don't care. She says, Yes, I hear you. That sounds hard, and I'm sorry. And like, this is really important to me. This has to happen, in my opinion. And then Mary Anne's like, Okay, I understand. So the harm is being admitted, there is a discussion of it, and then Mary Anne gets a greater understanding of what Dawn is trying to do. And they kind of reach a compromise, right? Whereas another show would make that very simple. They would have a barricade, and it would be all positive things came out of it, and like, the camp director is destroyed, all the kids rise up. It would just be black and white. But there's so much nuance that they put into the show, in terms of like, actions and consequences and harm. And how even the best intentions, something where you have the purest intentions, and your intention is to bring everyone to the table, could have harm to a friend.
Brooke Suchomel: 12:59
Right, unintentional.
Kaykay Brady: 13:00
Unintentional harm, right. And it's not like Dawn says, "Shut up Mary Anne, I don't want to hear it." Dawn welcomes that, they have a conversation about it. So again, tools, communication, nuance, yes, and thinking, right? Because like, we live in this culture that is so black and white, and so "but." Like, things cannot exist at the same time. And actually, as a therapist, often what you're trying to present to clients is a different concept of the world, where so many things can be true at once and valid. And like, one thing does not cancel out the other. Because, you know, living in sort of a "but," black and white world? It's harmful to you, and it's also harmful to others.
Brooke Suchomel: 13:45
"But" as the alternative to "and."
Kaykay Brady: 13:48
Yeah, exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 13:49
Also, the world that we're living in is oftentimes "butt" in the sense of "with two Ts," meaning "ass."
Kaykay Brady: 13:56
Meaning "shit coming out of an asshole."
Brooke Suchomel: 13:59
Because that's kind of the world that we're living in. So the "butt with two Ts" comes as a result of the "but with one T." Yeah. Deep.
Kaykay Brady: 14:15
So anyway, I loved it. I thought it was so cool. It's hard to even imagine a grown up show trying to do this, honestly.
Brooke Suchomel: 14:20
Yeah. Because I think oftentimes, humans- Americans in particular, I think you could say that there are certainly exceptions to this rule, if you're looking at foreign films, and certainly exceptions to this rule in literature. But when it comes to like, TV and movies, we look for the simple in culture, or at least- not so much that we look for it. We've been sort of conditioned to look for it, because it's all we've been presented, is basically a fucking fable. It's like we take the format of a fable in our entertainment. And that's all well and good if the world was as simple as "good and bad," but it's not.
Kaykay Brady: 14:22
Exactly. It also makes me think of programming for boys being, there's a good guy and a bad guy, and they fight, and then the good guy wins and the bad guy dies. Yay. And it's perfect. And it's clean. To me, this is evidence of why you need women at the table, you need people of color at the table, you need people with different perspectives to deepen that inquiry. And I'm not saying, you know, it's just because men are running Hollywood and shows and TV, but that's part of it. You know what I mean?
Brooke Suchomel: 15:34
Yeah. And I think it's part of the sort of American mythos, right?
Kaykay Brady: 15:38
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 15:39
Particularly with the "good guy, bad guy" thing, like seeing everything in a binary. Nobody thinks of themselves as the bad guy.
Kaykay Brady: 15:46
Of course, exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 15:48
Nobody thinks of themselves as a bad guy, so everybody puts themselves in the role of the good guy. And so if you are in opposition to someone for any reason, because of this "good guy, bad guy" dichotomy that we have, you cast that person that you are in opposition, as the bad guy, who thinks that they're the good guy, and that you're the bad guy, if they subscribe to this sort of mythos of black and white, good and evil. That sort of bullshit that isn't actually true, doesn't reflect the complexity of human behavior.
Kaykay Brady: 15:54
And then it also becomes a matter of your intentions, right? And so in that world, all that matters is your intentions. "I'm a good guy, I see myself as a good guy," versus your actions. Versus the actual outcome. Again, you see that with Dawn, right? Like, her intentions are gold, the outcome is not so great for her friend. If Dawn was stuck in the "good guy, bad guy dynamic," Mary Anne would become the bad guy, and Dawn would actually like create a mythos for herself even stronger of how she is the good guy.
Brooke Suchomel: 16:33
Like, Look, even her friends are against her, this is how noble she is.
Kaykay Brady: 16:54
Yeah, exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 16:55
But she doesn't go there, they talk it out. At the end, they say that they're both trying to make the world better in their own way, and they're doing that by being a part of something that is bigger than themselves and trying to be the best version of themselves that they can be. They literally talk that out, which is what helps you get that better understanding of like, "Look, neither of us here is the quote unquote, bad guy, right? It's just in our attempts to make the world a better place, we're in conflict because of the circumstances that we're in." They have to talk that out to figure out how they can both achieve their goals, even if it means that they have to alter their strategies and tactics, so that the other one can achieve their goals.
Kaykay Brady: 17:45
Yeah, exactly. Well put.
Brooke Suchomel: 17:47
Which is so freaking healthy, and I would really like to see more of that.
Kaykay Brady: 17:52
Yeah. I am so glad kids are watching this.
Brooke Suchomel: 17:55
Seriously.
Kaykay Brady: 17:56
You know, they're such good messages. And also, interestingly enough, I felt, this episode there was a little more space for the nuance of the realities that Meany is facing.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:07
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 18:08
Right? And she says explicitly, at one point, like, "Look, I hear you, and I wish I could make camp free, but then I can't have a camp." And like, the show doesn't tell you she's wrong, and it also doesn't tell you she's right. It just allows that perspective, which is her reality, to live and exist without being dismissed or turned into some sort of black and white story of evil and good.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:31
Yeah. And I mean, she says straight up, she's like, "Look, I just pulled up and I'm seeing this revolt happening. I just had a goddamn root canal."
Kaykay Brady: 18:38
Yeah, and she probably couldn't afford to have it earlier. That was the implication, right?
Brooke Suchomel: 18:44
She had a back alley root canal, okay? She's not in the best state.
Kaykay Brady: 18:48
By the way? Driving a used Jeep. Old Lesbian Subarus Dot Com. It made me think, is Philomena a lesbo? And I'm here for it.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:57
Oh, yeah. I mean, I think it's certainly possible.
Kaykay Brady: 19:03
She's sturdy, she drives a Jeep...
Brooke Suchomel: 19:05
Yeah. So she says to the kids, like, "Look, here's what I'm dealing with." And then Dawn says to her, "I know you care about the campers, and everyone just wants to belong." It's like, I'm going to see you and say, I know that you aren't intending- again, it's not you are just this capital B, capital G "Bad Guy," right? Like, you have your own things that you have to prioritize and your needs are going to be in conflict with ours. It's like the kids start to see that, and then it's resolved by Kristy, who gets what she wanted at the very beginning. They get to be Junior Counselors in Training, because Kristy says, "Look, I know you want this place to be great. You need more help." So she finds a way to get what she wanted.
Kaykay Brady: 20:00
And there's an implicit threat in there, right? Which is, "There was a child who ran away from camp, and you had no fucking idea." So it's really cool, because Kristy understands the system, is more in the system than Dawn is, and is able to figure out what is the thing that she could say to Meany that's going to get what she wants.
Brooke Suchomel: 20:20
Exactly.
Kaykay Brady: 20:21
So you know, to me, it was a great example too, of like, you need all different kinds of people working towards this. You need the super activists that are going to be pushing the envelope. You need the realists who are within the system, who understand the system, trying to foment change. And I thought that was really cool, like, Oh, yeah, Kristy is also, her perspective is also welcomed and very valuable, even though it's different.
Brooke Suchomel: 20:44
Yeah, that's a really great point. They do have different roles that they're playing. They're all coming at it from a different perspective and they have different strengths. Kristy is a negotiator, Kristy sees herself as a businesswoman.
Kaykay Brady: 20:57
She's very pragmatic.
Brooke Suchomel: 20:58
Super pragmatic, super practical. So it's like, not only do you need to recognize that the person that you need something from has their own needs, isn't just in opposition to you because they're just cruel and don't care about you. They have other things besides you that they have to focus on. But then also, Kristy is able to say, Okay, you also have to figure out, knowing what those things are that are of concern to them, how can you help them get what they want if they help you get what you want?
Kaykay Brady: 21:34
Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 21:35
Like, that's the whole process of negotiation. And that's something that is often overlooked, I think, not just in personal interactions, because we don't treat all personal interactions like a negotiation. I mean, it would be crazy to do so, it would be very, very difficult. But if you have that understanding of human empathy, and realize that everybody, with few exceptions, there are absolutely shining light exceptions to this. But the vast majority of people are just doing the best that they can.
Kaykay Brady: 22:09
Yep.
Brooke Suchomel: 22:10
You know? Sometimes they just lack the information or the skills that they need to do the best that they can. Sometimes their approach is coming from misinformation or a lack of empathy of other people. And that's where you get the "good guy, bad guy." That's where you get the shit show that we're basically all living in. But if we all realize that ultimately, just as Dawn and Mary Anne said, if everybody is just trying to make the world better, even if that world is just like your home and your safety and whatever, like, again, nobody sees themselves as the bad guy. So how can we help each other be the good guy?
Kaykay Brady: 22:49
Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 22:50
I should even say, "not guy." This is me saying like, I know that I still need to work on the gendered terms that we use. Growing up in the Midwest, "guy" is like, generic for "person," when you say "guys."
Kaykay Brady: 23:05
Even here, everything is "Hey, you guys."
Brooke Suchomel: 23:07
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 23:08
All over the place.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:09
So, noted to listeners that that is something that I'm working on. So apologies for using the gendered term, "good guy, bad guy," because frankly, I think women generally come with better empathy skills, so we need to find a gender neutral term for that. But until then...
Kaykay Brady: 23:23
I think that it works in terms of that sort of trope. You know, you're pointing to the trope, and the trope is gendered.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:31
Yeah, that's true.
Kaykay Brady: 23:32
Right? And that's part of the problem.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:35
Because women don't exist as agents of change. Women don't exist as active participants in society in that trope.
Kaykay Brady: 23:43
Yeah, and we're only, especially when we were younger, were mostly just watching male stories and trying to find ourselves in them, versus getting a chance to express our stories that might be different, might be more nuanced, might be more filled with empathy.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:59
Yeah, it was very rare for women or females or girls, whatever, to be presented as the protagonist in any story that was actually active. It was more, you know, you get all of your damsel in distress stories, you get that action is generally happening from male figures. And I love that in this particular series, it's all female action, all the time.
Kaykay Brady: 24:27
Yeah, and the action is very much relational.
Brooke Suchomel: 24:29
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 24:30
And nuanced and complex.
Brooke Suchomel: 24:32
Which is realistic!
Kaykay Brady: 24:33
Not like war, or...
Brooke Suchomel: 24:35
Right! And that's because that is how you actually resolve issues. This myth that coming to a resolution and getting what you want comes with some sort of like physical battle, it's bullshit. It's fucking crazy.
Kaykay Brady: 24:52
Yeah, it's not the world we're living in, either.
Brooke Suchomel: 24:53
All it does is perpetrate harm. That's not real. Like, you have to fucking talk through things. You have to give some times in order to get. That's just how this fucking world works.
Kaykay Brady: 25:06
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:07
It would be nice if people in positions of authority understood that and modeled that for the rest of us. Because people do look to what they see. And so when we were growing up, and everything that we saw was like a physical fight or some sort of physical takedown, and that's how problems were solved. We've got a whole generation, multiple generations of people who grew up thinking that's how problems are solved, because that's how they saw them be resolved on TV. And it's not true!
Kaykay Brady: 25:35
Totally. I was gonna say, like, I do feel like it's the tail wagging the dog a little bit now.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:40
Totally.
Kaykay Brady: 25:41
Where people that have grown up with this media are now in positions of power, and it perpetuates itself.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:48
Yeah. So we need other people in positions of power to show a different example.
Kaykay Brady: 25:53
I just gotta talk about, it just makes me think of my personal bone to pick is disaster movies, where in every single disaster movie, people turn on each other and get evil. And if you actually look at what has happened in history, the exact fucking opposite happens! When shit really gets real, people pull together. So this is a tail wagging the dog that really concerns me. Because, you know, if you start trying to convince people that other people are inherently bad and selfish and evil, you know, that's what they're gonna see. It's the world that they're going to create, and it's how they're going to participate. So anyway, yeah, this is one of my personal- I love disaster movies, but like, I can't fuckin' stand this part of it.
Brooke Suchomel: 26:40
Yeah. And we see that in our culture. Like, everything that we do, it's so reactive. And it's reactivity based on the presumption that other people are out to harm you. And it's like, other people are focused on their own shit, just like you are. And like, PS, you're "the other person" to literally everyone else on this planet besides yourself. So maybe think about that for a second.
Kaykay Brady: 27:03
Wow.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:04
Right? It's true, though! Anyways...
Kaykay Brady: 27:06
It's theory of mind, man. Other people exist, and they're not really thinking about you that much.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:11
It's true. And it's so great.
Kaykay Brady: 27:13
It is great. It's very liberating.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:14
It's fan-fucking-tastic.
Kaykay Brady: 27:15
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:16
So we need a different model of leadership and authority. We see various different models of healthier leadership and authority in this episode, when Dawn said, when she was rallying people to her cause on the microphone when she was doing the announcements, and she said, "This is Dawn Schafer, your organizer, not your superior."
Kaykay Brady: 27:38
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:40
So great!
Kaykay Brady: 27:42
Slow clap, dude. Slow clap.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:42
Oh, that made me so happy. Because that was something that I always felt very uncomfortable with, when I was, you know, I hate to say like, "manager," "boss," like, that term is so uncomfortable to me. But when I had a team of people that reported to me, just- like, what do I call myself? Even that is uncomfortable, like, I'm not your quote unquote, "boss." To say that I'm managing you, you don't need to be "managed," like a child, you know? We need better terms for authority.
Kaykay Brady: 28:18
There are so many assumptions built into those terms and the structure itself.
Brooke Suchomel: 28:22
Yeah. So to say "organizer, not your superior," oh, beautiful. Let's condense that onto a business card and make that the new "boss."
Kaykay Brady: 28:31
I always liked- it's called servant leadership. The idea of servant leadership is that, as the leader, you're actually there to serve the needs of your team.
Brooke Suchomel: 28:44
100 percent.
Kaykay Brady: 28:44
Versus the other way around. And that's always how I tried to lead, is like, I'm here to prop them up. They're not here to like, do my fucking bidding. And I always really loved that inversion. It was very humbling. Also, I think that spirit created great teams and teams that really trusted each other.
Brooke Suchomel: 29:06
Absolutely.
Kaykay Brady: 29:07
We should introduce that to Kristy.
Brooke Suchomel: 29:09
Seriously.
Kaykay Brady: 29:11
I think she could get behind it, but like, you know...
Brooke Suchomel: 29:14
Kristy's been watching those same TV shows that we were watching, that have that authority is a thing to aspire to, as a control mechanism.
Kaykay Brady: 29:25
Yeah. She also, you know, some of this I think is temperament. And some people just have a more, I don't know how to put it, forthright, aggressive temperament. And that's reality, right?
Brooke Suchomel: 29:39
Blunt.
Kaykay Brady: 29:40
Blunt, and like, very energetic, and I can resonate with that too. That's a great skill, but it also has to be managed, because it has sort of the shadow side of like, power tripping, and not listening to other people. So I feel like Kristy would love this idea of servant leadership.
Brooke Suchomel: 29:58
Yeah. And she is focused on terminology.
Kaykay Brady: 30:02
She loves terminology.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:03
Because she wants to know, why is it HERmit and not HIMit? And that's a good question.
Kaykay Brady: 30:11
Fuck yeah, Kristy! You critically evaluate language. It's really important.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:19
Yes! Oh my God, as we all should. Yeah, I love that line. That was really funny. I had to go back and listen to that a couple of times because it was delightful. Being in the writers room when they came up with that line would have been fun, I think.
Kaykay Brady: 30:33
Yeah, I really am curious about their process. How do they write one of these episodes? Is it truly collaborative? Is like, one person doing a draft? I don't know. I have so many questions.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:43
I do too.
Kaykay Brady: 30:44
It's so well done, I just am so curious. Do you know this is 100% on Rotten Tomatoes?
Brooke Suchomel: 30:50
That's awesome.
Kaykay Brady: 30:51
And well fucking deserved. I hadn't even looked at it until last night. I was like, "Oh, what are the critics saying about this?" And yeah, 100 fuckin' percent.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:00
Critics are like, "This is fucking great. Where has this been? More of this, please?"
Kaykay Brady: 31:04
Yeah, and like, a lot of them are saying, you know, it's all about kindness and empathy. This show is sort of just like a vehicle for kindness and empathy, which this world is lacking, right? It's like water in a desert to be watching the show, and I totally agree.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:19
Yeah, it has been very soothing.
Kaykay Brady: 31:22
Very soothing.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:23
When it's time for me to sit down and watch it, I get into a nice little space. I get cozy on my couch, got my dogs on either side of me, got my notepad lined up. Husband's in the chair, cuz he loves this show, too. So yeah, it's a nice escape.
Kaykay Brady: 31:40
It makes me think of when I was in Ireland once, and I was at a little pub having breakfast, and there was sort of a old wizened woman at the bar. I went up to the bar to get a drink, and she turned to me. She said, "A Guinness in the morning's like a warm hug." Anyway, Baby-sitters Club is like a warm hug.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:58
Is it totally is.
Kaykay Brady: 32:01
It's even better than the books, because the books- I mean, I have to admit, my blood pressure goes up at certain points.
Brooke Suchomel: 32:10
Because it takes you back? Triggers.
Kaykay Brady: 32:11
Oh yeah, because there's parts of it- I mean, it's of its time. It's very forward thinking, but it's of its time, and so there's so many things that just like, speak to me, trigger my shit, raise the blood pressure. But the fucking show's just a warm fucking hug, because you know, we got some real adults in charge here.
Brooke Suchomel: 32:33
Yep. So even though the show is like a warm fucking hug, it still does have its dark side, which I enjoy, too. And I love how it's like-
Kaykay Brady: 32:44
Karen.
Brooke Suchomel: 32:45
Yes. So normally you would get like, a dark show that has like comedic relief. This is a show that has like, dark relief. In Karen!
Kaykay Brady: 32:54
Yeah, that's a great point!
Brooke Suchomel: 32:55
That's the role that Karen plays, is like, okay, not everything is like warm, fuzzy, you know, evolved. You've still got Karen here. Who is well intentioned and has a good heart but also has that dark side that you can't deny. And I love- Kristy says about Karen, when- so Karen goes missing. Karen decides she's going to leave camp, and nobody notices but Kristy, and so Kristy, Jessi, and Mallory go to find her. And that leads to Mallory and Jessi being invited to be a Junior Counselor in Training with them at the end. And then, when they return to Stoneybrook, junior members of the Baby-sitters Club. They are in the second season, so they definitely step up and play a bigger role in the upcoming episodes. But when they're looking for her, Kristy says, "I know that Karen seems like a confident mature woman. But she's only seven."
Kaykay Brady: 33:58
That was so funny.
Brooke Suchomel: 34:03
That line made me laugh. Because yeah, when you're thirteen, seven's not that much younger than you, you know?
Kaykay Brady: 34:11
No it's not.
Brooke Suchomel: 34:11
So you have a little bit of a different perspective.
Kaykay Brady: 34:13
But it feels like a world away, when you're 13.
Brooke Suchomel: 34:15
Oh, yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 34:16
Even a year feels like, "Oh, that's a kid," you know?
Brooke Suchomel: 34:19
Right. But it's still possible at 13 to be able to say the line, "I know she seems like a confident, mature woman, but she's only seven." Whereas I don't think you would see too many people over the age of-
Kaykay Brady: 34:32
When you're 44.
Brooke Suchomel: 34:32
Yeah, no, that doesn't feel right coming out of your mouth. But they know that Karen's missing when they find her quote "witchy but glamorous" decoy. So Karen, witchy but glamorous.
Kaykay Brady: 34:46
Yeah, it was Kristy, right? That's like, "Witchy but glamorous decoy? Karen was here!" I see this for you, Brooke. Witchy but glamorous. What do you think?
Brooke Suchomel: 34:56
Yes! Oh my god, I identify so much with Karen.
Kaykay Brady: 34:59
It really resonated? All right!
Brooke Suchomel: 35:00
So much with Karen. That's why I read all of the Little Sister books. You know, while I was still reading, I didn't finish the whole series because I eventually aged out of the Baby-sitters, the sort of demographics when they were still coming out. But even though Little Sister was really aimed at a younger reader than I was, I loved Karen so fucking much, you're goddamn right I read those books, even if I saw that they were a little babyish for me. But I loved Karen. And I still do, and I didn't have that- like, I knew she was into sort of spooky stuff and all of that. But I didn't see really how dark the character could be until going back and revisiting it. So it gives me some nice insights on my own psyche.
Kaykay Brady: 35:48
Which, the nice thing, and I think we've said this before, the nice thing is that it feels like the show writers pick up those seeds of darkness, and they let them grow a little bit more, sort of like a cult following of Karen would. You know, like somebody that really loves Karen, and they're gonna take it to that next level, which so works with the show.
Brooke Suchomel: 36:12
Oh, yeah. Oh my God, Karen? With her money? And her mindset?
Kaykay Brady: 36:18
She's dangerous, yo.
Brooke Suchomel: 36:19
Oh my God, she absolutely is forming like a really dark MLM down the road, and is going to have thousands of people under her spell. I have no doubt about that. So we're seeing that unfold. And then the other plot that we get is, Mary Anne takes over for Stacey in the lead role when she's unable to go on, so she gets to be romantically paired with Logan. And they have their first kiss at the end. But did you notice who was the initiator of that?
Kaykay Brady: 36:58
I mean, it was Mary Anne, right?
Brooke Suchomel: 36:59
Yeah. Mary Anne is like, "Okay, we're gonna have to call off this particular show." But like, they end up doing more shows later, and Logan's like, "Oh, but we won't have our kiss," because Mary Anne's like, "We have to save the kiss for when we're actually on stage." And Mary Anne is just like, "Yeah, we will."
Kaykay Brady: 37:19
Right now.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:20
Yeah, boom, in front of her friends. And that is so lovely, because that was one of the issues that I had with the- one of the many issues that I have with the Logan and Mary Anne pairing in the books, is that Mary Anne is so freaking passive in the relationship. Even the title, Logan Likes Mary Anne!, as we discussed in our episode on that book, Mary Anne is passive.
Kaykay Brady: 37:48
Which is so fucked up, because she's probably the narrator of that book.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:51
Yes, she is. Every other book is like, the titles are written in such an active voice, and we couldn't even get an active title. Why isn't it Mary Anne Likes Logan?
Kaykay Brady: 38:03
Yeah. That's why I think we're seeing the author's ambivalence about, you know, heterosexual relationships she may have been part of, that's my guess.
Brooke Suchomel: 38:13
No, definitely. And I like how the writers of this are like, Well, we're going to write those wrongs. Because again, just as we've talked about, and as we've mentioned so many times in this show, like, you can't just say, Oh, it's just a TV show. Oh, it's just a book. The artistic products of a culture don't just reflect the culture, they also influence the culture. And so those messages that you're getting- I mean, I didn't get any messages when I was a kid about like, If you like a boy, okay, here's how you can be- you know? It's like, What do you do to get them to like you?
Kaykay Brady: 38:50
How shitty!
Brooke Suchomel: 38:51
How about fucking just ask them if they want to do something sometime?
Kaykay Brady: 38:54
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 38:55
How about that? How about like, be a human who is like, "Hi, I have interests and desires. I'm gonna act upon them rather than just sit around and wait to be acted upon"?
Kaykay Brady: 39:04
I was just gonna say, you know, talk about temperament. You are a very naturally assertive person. That does not work for your fucking temperament.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:11
No, it did not.
Kaykay Brady: 39:12
That is not gonna work for your temperament. And it's so fucked up that there's only- I mean, first of all, I don't even know if it works for someone who has a little more passive temperament. But it's just so fucked up that the only temperament that a woman is allowed to have, basically, is passive. And the cool thing about the show, too, is at one point, there was a line that said- Mary Anne was trying to channel Kristy in her director role. And I can't remember who aid it, but somebody said, "No, you're not like bossy Kristy. You're bossy Mary Anne." So like you get to be your own-
Brooke Suchomel: 39:14
Logan said it.
Kaykay Brady: 39:15
Oh, okay. Logan said it. Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:44
Which was also nice. So it's like, yeah, "You're not bossy like Kristy. You're bossy like Mary Anne." Now the term "bossy," in and of itself, it's still problematic, but it is the term that I suspect that kids would still use.
Kaykay Brady: 39:57
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:58
Right? Maybe it's just me, it seems like "bossy" might not be quite as gendered when it's young...
Kaykay Brady: 40:05
I was gonna say, I'm not sure that the connotation is as nasty today.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:09
I could see boys being called "bossy" when they're boys. You don't see men being called "bossy."
Kaykay Brady: 40:17
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:17
Because it's more of a matter of like, you're trying to exert authority that you don't actually have.
Kaykay Brady: 40:25
Yeah, "boss like," because you will never be the fucking boss.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:28
Right. Kids are in that position where they're trying to assert authority in the face of a culture that doesn't actually give them any authority. Whereas when you hear the word "bossy" when you are a full goddamn grown adult? No. Stop it. Like, the connotation of that is very clear. I do still suspect that it is probably more deployed to girls than to boys, and it certainly does have that loaded connotation for girls than it does for boys. But it feels like that it exists a bit more on a spectrum, just because of their age, so I'm a little ambivalent about that part. But I did like how it's saying, basically, there isn't one way to be a leader. Everyone has their own way, their own methods of leadership. And that's a good thing.
Kaykay Brady: 41:16
It's a great thing.
Brooke Suchomel: 41:17
Embrace that. So that was nice. The other thing that I can't get away from this episode without us discussing it, Kristy whips out the red visor.
Kaykay Brady: 41:27
She just kind of has it in her back pocket?
Brooke Suchomel: 41:29
She had it in her back fuckin' pocket.
Kaykay Brady: 41:32
You can take the girl out of Stoneybrook...
Brooke Suchomel: 41:36
Right? So just the idea that she's been going around this whole time, was like, "I have it," and when it's time for you to take charge- boom. It's like her Superman cape. The red visor is her Superman cape. When she's like, "It's on, I'm doing this," the visor goes on.
Kaykay Brady: 41:54
I love it.
Brooke Suchomel: 41:54
This is her position of authority. It's her indication that she's in charge now and she's, "Everybody, follow me." I really like that.
Kaykay Brady: 42:03
You know, this whole conversation about the author's intent, I want to go back to it, because right now I'm thinking that the show writers may have missed an opportunity. And that is for an Ann M. cameo.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:16
I know!
Kaykay Brady: 42:17
Because I see Ann M. as like a sailing instructor.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:20
Do they have sailing at camp?
Kaykay Brady: 42:22
Some camps today, for sure. On the East Coast, no doubt.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:26
Jesus Christ.
Kaykay Brady: 42:28
That's what I'm saying! Sailing instructor, perfect.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:30
We had canoes. Canoeing, that was it.
Kaykay Brady: 42:33
It would have to be a pretty wealthy camp. Don't get me wrong. Maybe Mooseknuckle isn't quite...
Brooke Suchomel: 42:38
Mooseknuckle couldn't spring for sailing?
Kaykay Brady: 42:40
Probably not, if they're like not giving them $50 tie dye shirts.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:44
This is true. Yeah, I think Ann M. is, my impression is that she's pretty reserved.
Kaykay Brady: 42:51
She keeps on the DL?
Brooke Suchomel: 42:52
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 42:53
That's fair.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:54
She likes to stay under the radar, it seems like. But it would be wonderful for her to be so publicly celebrated.
Kaykay Brady: 43:01
Yes, exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 43:02
For what she's brought into our culture.
Kaykay Brady: 43:05
What she hath wrought.
Brooke Suchomel: 43:06
Absolutely. So what did you have for what they were fighting in this episode?
Kaykay Brady: 43:12
Yeah, so I had that they were fighting with sort of the fallout of challenging systems and hierarchies. It felt like they all kind of were dealing with the fallout differently. And then I had the way that they did it, the tools, is communication, and also "yes and" thinking.
Brooke Suchomel: 43:31
Yeah, I had the same. And then also, the other tool that I had listed, was solidarity. Solidarity was like explicitly called out-
Kaykay Brady: 43:39
Oh, "I'm a union man."
Brooke Suchomel: 43:41
Yes!!!
Kaykay Brady: 43:42
Who said that? Was that David Michael?
Brooke Suchomel: 43:44
Yes. Oh my God, I loved it so much. Oh, it made me so happy. It was so funny, too, as all this is happening, my husband just kept turning and looking at me with a smile on his face. He's like, "Yeah, you'd loved that, didn't you?" Every time. It was great.
Kaykay Brady: 44:00
Did you have any modern moments?
Brooke Suchomel: 44:03
For modern moments, I had some of them that I already mentioned, and then I also had how Kristy is like, "Put on your tick spray. We're going into the woods." That would not have happened in the 80s.
Kaykay Brady: 44:16
That's what I had! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Brooke Kaykay Brain Synchronization! That's exactly what I had!
Brooke Suchomel: 44:26
Yeah, that's a new thing.
Kaykay Brady: 44:28
And like, I went to camps on the East Coast that we're just fucking crawling with Lyme disease, and, "Too bad, kid. Good luck. Hope you don't get a debilitating, crushing illness that's gonna last into your 70s."
Brooke Suchomel: 44:40
Uh huh. Yeah, I love that we both had that same thing. Tick spray.
Kaykay Brady: 44:49
Get the fuck outta here with tick spray.
Brooke Suchomel: 44:51
Oh god...
Kaykay Brady: 44:52
They didn't even give us- okay, young listeners, I know this is my, "We went to school. We walked uphill both ways." So they didn't fucking give us water. I remember, you would run around for like six hours in 100 degree New Jersey, New York, Connecticut heat, and then they'd give you like one juice box at lunch and you'd be like, I can remember the hydration just seeping through my body because I was so red faced and dehydrated. Just, not a problem.
Brooke Suchomel: 45:24
It's very modern, the concept of being concerned about children's physical and mental well being. That's modern.
Kaykay Brady: 45:32
It is very modern.
Brooke Suchomel: 45:35
So thanks for showing that, writers. Appreciate that. So it has been an absolute delight-
Kaykay Brady: 45:43
A fucking delight!
Brooke Suchomel: 45:48
To spend the summer watching the show, talking about it with you, Kaykay. I'm delighted that the show is coming back for a second season. It's coming back very soon. October 11 is when it premieres. It's going to be eight episodes, so a little bit shorter than this season, but they are covering a range of books. So unlike this season, season one, where they covered the first eight books in the series, and then Camp Moosehead that is sort of the Summer Vacation episode, but with very little to do with the actual book itself. The next season is going to cover books that are sort of all over the map, starting with Kristy and the Snobs, which we've already covered.
Kaykay Brady: 46:36
I'm so pumped for that one.
Brooke Suchomel: 46:37
I know, it's a really good one. And then ending, though, with Kristy and the Baby Parade, which is Book 45. The next book that we have to cover is Book 21. So, because the foundation of this podcast is to really look at the books, to look at them in historical context, to discuss them in the framework of like, our next episode will be on Book 21, which is Mallory and the Trouble with Twins, and that came out in February of 1989. Kristy and the Baby Parade comes out in July 1991. We will be covering Season Two, because we've loved watching the show. We've loved discussing it. But we don't want to lose track of what we're intending to do with the book coverage as well. So what we will be doing is, in two weeks, coming back with our focus on the book. The episode that covers Mallory and the Trouble with Twins will come out on September 24. And then we will do, next summer, yet another "summer break" where we watch Season Two and discuss it. We want to make sure that we stay grounded in the books, basically. And we will be doing that, but we will not be neglecting this. This is just going to be our next summer vacation, because we have enjoyed it so much, and that will give us something to look forward to.
Kaykay Brady: 48:02
I love it.
Brooke Suchomel: 48:03
I hope that you all are looking forward to that, too. And I hope that you are looking forward to returning back to the books with us in two weeks. We're going to be going back to the two week schedule that we were on before, so every other Friday, we will release an episode about the book. And we're going to go back to digging into historical stuff, bullshitting about stuff from the 80s...
Kaykay Brady: 48:25
Oh, I missed that. I'm so psyched to have that
Brooke Suchomel: 48:28
Yeah, talking about terrible movies that back. you've completely forgotten about, we'll be doing all of that.
Kaykay Brady: 48:33
Well, as we're moving into the 90s, there will be many of those.
Brooke Suchomel: 48:35
Oh, so many. I mean, it only gets richer, because frankly, as we go along, this gets more and more into the things that we remember so well, because our brains, you know, were more formed at that time. So the discussion should be even better, I think, and I can't wait to get back into that with you in our next episode which will come out on September 24th.
Kaykay Brady: 48:56
Woo hoo.
Brooke Suchomel: 48:57
But until then...
Kaykay Brady: 48:58
Just keeps it in. [THEME] A Guinness in the morning's like a warm hug.
