Transcript - BSFC Netflix #9: Hello, Camp Moosehead! Part 1
Brooke Suchomel: 0:19
Welcome to the Baby-sitters Fight Club, where the first rule is, you don't talk about Fight Club. Instead, you talk about the battles fought and lessons learned in the Baby-sitters Club series of books by Ann M. Martin and the corresponding television show on Netflix. I'm Brooke Suchomel, an editor who's revisiting these books after 30 years.
Kaykay Brady: 0:38
And I'm Kaykay Brady. I'm a therapist, and I'm new to the book.
Brooke Suchomel: 0:42
And in this episode, we are discussing episode nine of the Netflix series, Hello, Camp Moosehead, aka Super Special Number Two, Baby-sitters' Summer Vacation, Part One. And the Netflix description of this episode is quote, "The BSC braves the great outdoors at a summer sleepaway camp, where they explore archery, theater, activism, dot, dot, dot, and a dash of chilling mystery." End quote.
Kaykay Brady: 1:12
Shit. This episode had everything.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:15
It had everything. It had archery, it had a theater, it had activism and chilling mystery.
Kaykay Brady: 1:23
It had socioeconomic discussions.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:25
So there was a lot going on.
Kaykay Brady: 1:27
There was a lot going on. And also, I'm having a lot of feelings. I'm having feelings because it feels like my summer vacation is over now that their summer vacation is over. And also, like, I've really come to love this Netflix series. And I'm so sad that there's only one episode left.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:47
So there's only one episode left of the first season, but they just announced that there is the second season That is some consolation. coming on October 11, which we're very excited about. We're talking right now about how we'll address season two in the podcast. We'll figure it out, and we'll let you know on our next episode. But yes, we're nearing the end of this season, but happily, we'll get to return to Stoneybrook in the not too distant future.
Kaykay Brady: 1:53
That is some consolation.
Brooke Suchomel: 2:07
Yeah. But I love that you feel like these are your friends and you're going to miss them.
Kaykay Brady: 2:22
Exactly. And also, I've been thinking more about how like, this fuckin' series could not be more perfect for us. Because it reminds me of this podcast a little bit. Like, funny, but also pretty serious in some ways. And also, you know, not afraid to take the implicit themes and make them explicit, which is kind of like what we've been doing in this podcast. So yeah, I just feel like, I don't know, I just feel like we would be buds with the writers of the series.
Brooke Suchomel: 2:52
Oh, for sure. I mentioned this to the show creator, you know, just in a comment on Twitter. This past week, they announced that season two was coming. Rachel Shukert is her name and she tweeted out, she's like, "You guys can say that you're excited about this coming without hiding behind imaginary children to say like, 'I'm excited to watch it with my blah, blah, blah.'" Like, you can say you're just excited to watch it. You don't need a qualification.
Kaykay Brady: 3:16
It's like when straight men say that their girlfriends watch Drag Race, and they kind of like it.
Brooke Suchomel: 3:21
Mm hmm. Exactly.
Kaykay Brady: 3:22
You can just like it yourselves, straight men.
Brooke Suchomel: 3:23
You can like whatever you want. It's fine. I said that I was excited to watch it with my inner 10 year old child, who wishes that the HBO series that was out when I was a kid was like this. Like, this is the kind of show that I wanted in my childhood, and so I can absolutely appreciate it as a full grown adult. There's nothing wrong with that.
Kaykay Brady: 3:48
It's so satisfying to have read the books, you know, really tried to give the books the reading they deserve, really give them a deep read and then see the show. Because it just feels like the show is just a gift to all the people that have read the books and felt a lot of meaning in them. You know, more meaning than might be in the plot summary.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:12
Yeah, there's a lot of respect for the audience. It's not patronizing. Like, I kind of found the original HBO series to be a little patronizing to me.
Kaykay Brady: 4:20
Oh, interesting. I haven't seen it, so I have no frame of reference, but it would be very interesting to watch it.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:25
Yeah. We'll have to watch it sometime and get your take on it. You can find them on YouTube. All the episodes are up on YouTube.
Kaykay Brady: 4:31
Wow. So what year did this come out on HBO? Do you know?
Brooke Suchomel: 4:33
1990.
Kaykay Brady: 4:35
Oh, that's gonna be problematic.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:36
Uh huh.
Kaykay Brady: 4:39
Tough year, man.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:42
But yeah, it is it is so rewarding to see how the core content, sort of the base text, gets updated and translated. And like you said, the subtext gets made text sometimes, or sometimes the text gets thrown out and new text is written, because we have grown as a society.
Kaykay Brady: 5:04
There's nothing you can do with some of those turds.
Brooke Suchomel: 5:07
Right. An Alan Gray? You can't polish that turd. Alan Gray is gonna be a turd no matter how much you polish it, so thank you for getting rid of that. So this is the first and only episode that we've done so far, and we'll do it again in our next episode, where we haven't read the core book together. So we're not going to be able to talk in this episode about how they have updated or changed what we saw, although I did do a quick skim, just to sort of refresh myself on the basis and like, this is not the book. This is a whole new thing. Even the name of the camp, the camp that they go to in Summer Vacation is Camp Mohawk. And so, being a bit more conscious of cultural appropriation, they have changed it to Moosehead, which I think is a good thing.
Kaykay Brady: 5:59
I thought you were gonna say it was called Mooseknuckle. I keep saying in my head, "Camp Mooseknuckle." That's the drag version of this show, is going to be Camp Mooseknuckle.
Brooke Suchomel: 6:07
Cool.
Kaykay Brady: 6:10
"Cool." Very cool.
Brooke Suchomel: 6:13
Nothing's cooler than a moose knuckle. But yeah, so maybe we should ground this in the plots that we did get. So this is our first cliffhanger.
Kaykay Brady: 6:23
It is a cliffhanger.
Brooke Suchomel: 6:24
We've got a cliffhanger. But Kaykay, how would you describe what happens? What did you take as the main story that we get here?
Kaykay Brady: 6:33
Well, in the brief description, I would say, they all go to camp together. They're expecting to room together and they don't room together. They get split up. You know, some of them are matched, two of them, in their little bunks, but they get separated and they're all kind of struggling with that. There's also a subplot coming along of, campers with less money can't do a bunch of the art projects, because it costs extra to buy, like, a sweatshirt to do tie dye, for example.
Brooke Suchomel: 7:03
Yeah, like 50 goddamn dollars.
Kaykay Brady: 7:04
I know. Which rings true. And like, ooh, I felt that so much because I was super that kid. Always that kid. I remember, we were supposed to bring in a smock for art class, and I think it took like six months, halfway through the school year. And when my mother finally remembered to give me like one of my dad's shitty old work shirts, because of course they weren't gonna buy me a smock, no fucking way. Once she remembered to grab one of those shitty old work shirts, my teacher was so happy she kissed me. She kissed me on the cheek. Yes. And I was so in love with this teacher. I was six. I had to go into the bathroom and like pull it together. And I remember like being in the bathroom being like, "Pull it together, Brady!" So I felt this episode hard.
Brooke Suchomel: 7:54
Yeah. And Dawn felt it hard.
Kaykay Brady: 7:57
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 7:57
So we get, you know, the girls are split into three different cabins. Kristy and Stacey are together, and Dawn and Claudia are together. And then Mary Anne is on her own, and she ends up bunking with Laine.
Kaykay Brady: 8:13
Laine. Laine! Which, it was so cool, because I mean, I just assumed it was my family. I'm at first I just thought, oh, they gave her another Kristy. Like an updated Kristy that likes Broadway shows. And I was like, oh, how nice, because she kind of looks like Kristy, like they're both redheads and Irish looking.
Brooke Suchomel: 8:17
Okay, that actress, did she reminds you of somebody? The whole time I was like, oh my god. like, which cousin does she remind me of? I don't know. It was the mannerisms of that. Even like her style. I was like, she reminds me so much of an actress from the 80s or 90s, like a teen movie actress. I couldn't quite put my finger on it. I think she kind of looks like young Lindsey Lohan.
Kaykay Brady: 9:03
Yeah, definitely.
Brooke Suchomel: 9:04
But I was like, I totally saw this actress in the teen magazines that I read growing up.
Kaykay Brady: 9:10
Oh yeah, very perky and like Girl Next Door-y. But it's really cool, the way they bring Laine in is, you don't know who she is at first. And then when Stacey is trying out for the play that Laine and Mary Anne are directing or producing or both.
Brooke Suchomel: 9:27
They decide to put a show together!
Kaykay Brady: 9:28
They put a show together!
Brooke Suchomel: 9:29
Summer stock!
Kaykay Brady: 9:30
Summer stock! And that's when it comes out that this is Stacey's Laine. This is the Laine that allegedly sent the video around, although it looks like Laine has something to share about this, claiming that she's innocent. So we don't actually know Laine's take on this yet, but that's part of the cliffhanger.
Brooke Suchomel: 9:50
Right, she wants to talk to Stacey about what went down and they get in a little bit of a tiff.
Kaykay Brady: 9:59
They pull each other down into what I assume is poison ivy.
Brooke Suchomel: 10:03
Ohhhhh!
Kaykay Brady: 10:04
Yes, I knew that immediately. Immediately, when they very awkwardly pull each other down into, by the way, the way I'm describing this, it sounds romantic. And I just want to go there, which is like, there was such an ex energy happening in this episode. Like, if you didn't know the books, just watching the show without knowing the books, that is the total assumption you would make from the jump is that they used to date, and they had a bad breakup.
Brooke Suchomel: 10:30
You're right, but I also think that there's something to the kind of friendships that you have when you are like 12 and 13 that are much more intense.
Kaykay Brady: 10:41
Definitely.
Brooke Suchomel: 10:42
I mean, I think about some of my friendships that I had when I was in junior high, and like a freshman in high school, friendships with other females. That was much more intense than any sort of romantic relationship, because you're bonding, you're confessing like your deepest, darkest, like that level of intimacy that you have, as a young person...
Kaykay Brady: 11:03
Well, and this is why I think like, so many kids come out as bi, because like, most people ARE bi. And I honestly think a lot of those friendships are like practicing romance. Like, whether or not they become sexual or not, you're definitely practicing intimacy.
Brooke Suchomel: 11:19
Intimacy, for sure. For sure. Because intimacy, like, that's such an American thing, right? To define intimacy as like, something that you have with a sexual partner, which is so just crazy to think that we have only one person, and that's the only person that gets to know like, your deepest parts of yourself or really, truly understand you. And it's like, No, you should be having those sorts of close connections with multiple, particularly people that you're not in sexual relationships with, because then you can sustain that, you know? And that's something that will last for your life, if you do it right.
Kaykay Brady: 11:52
Yeah. And also, like, if you can only have intimacy with your romantic partner, it's too much pressure.
Brooke Suchomel: 11:57
Yeah. And then it's just like one person. So then if something doesn't work out from a romantic standpoint, then you've lost your most intimate connection that you have, you know? Which is really sad.
Kaykay Brady: 12:09
Yeah, totally. And I think also, like, this conversation makes me think, the series is similar to the book where like, there could be a lot of reads. So as a queer person, it reads queer to me, and very strongly queer. As a straight person, it reads totally valid as a young heterosexual friendship. And I think that is similar to the book in that there's so many reads you can do, and they do ring true.
Brooke Suchomel: 12:33
Yeah. God, that's really making me think now now, like, my brain is going in a completely different direction than when we started. It's making me think about how girls are encouraged to talk to their friends. And the way that friendship, in America at least, and I'm sure in many countries, is so segregated. Girls are friends with girls and boys are friends with boys, and that's just how it works. And then, up until recently, especially when we were growing up, it's like, "You're gonna grow up and marry a boy," or, "You're gonna grow up and marry a girl," you know? And so you only see relationships with people of opposite sex in a sort of sexual context as you're growing, but you can't wait until you have a sexual partner to have intimacy. So you practice intimacy with the people that are close to you, and that, in our society, is going to be people of your same gender.
Kaykay Brady: 13:32
Yep.
Brooke Suchomel: 13:33
And you know, you mentioned in previous episodes about how you would have conversations with your male friends, you really talked to them, in ways that girls in America are much more encouraged to do so. And so girls are actually practicing and experiencing intimacy before they have a sexual partner in a way that boys never do, because it's like, you don't talk about your feelings. You just like, fight it out in sports or whatever.
Kaykay Brady: 14:02
And you make fun of each other. That's how you show closeness.
Brooke Suchomel: 14:06
Exactly. I mean, that explains a lot about so much in our society.
Kaykay Brady: 14:12
Yeah. And I think it also explains part of toxic masculinity where men can get so obsessed with romantic partners.
Brooke Suchomel: 14:22
Yeah, cuz it's like an outlet.
Kaykay Brady: 14:23
It's their only outlet. They're actually refused that emotional expression inside themselves, and so they can only have it in women. And therefore, that gets really fucked up really fast, especially if they break up or the woman wants to break up. It's really fucked up, and it creates a very controlling element. Like, they want to own and contain this part of themselves. The healthy part is that you get to express it in yourself and develop it in yourself. Barring that, it can have a really unhealthy expression.
Brooke Suchomel: 14:56
Yeah, because women are allowed to be vulnerable. And men are not. Again, from like the social messages that they receive from the culture. And so if they've ever been vulnerable with someone, and then that doesn't work out, it's almost like you have to shut that down because, "They know the vulnerable part of me, and I can't let anybody else know my vulnerabilities."
Kaykay Brady: 15:19
Yeah, it's like the vulnerability has been externalized into another person that now you need to control and or harm.
Brooke Suchomel: 15:27
Right, to keep on that on lock. It's really sad and scary. But hopefully that's changing, or in the process of changing. We'll see.
Kaykay Brady: 15:40
Fingers crossed, man.
Brooke Suchomel: 15:41
Fingers crossed, man. Dudes, it's okay that you've got feelings. Everybody has feelings. It's okay to talk about them.
Kaykay Brady: 15:47
That's right.
Brooke Suchomel: 15:48
Jesus Christ.
Kaykay Brady: 15:49
All you need is a lesbian aunt. Talk about your feelings.
Brooke Suchomel: 15:52
Exactly.
Kaykay Brady: 15:53
But yeah, I really liked this plot. And I was thinking about talking about it today and thought, am I gonna talk yet again about how I want this to be a gay plot? And then I was like, Fuck yeah, I'm going to talk about it. Because even though I doubt it's going to show up into a gay plot, like, when I was a kid, I was the only person even like wishing or thinking of these things, right? So I'm like, I'm putting it out into the universe that I would welcome a fucking gay plot in the Baby-sitters Club. Writers, if you're listening, it would be nice, dude.
Brooke Suchomel: 16:23
Not just the subtext. Because the subtext is thick as hell, although I do think we get something sort of close to-
Kaykay Brady: 16:30
Well they did pull each other into poison ivy. Come on. I have done that.
Brooke Suchomel: 16:33
Well, you've just, because I'm like, Oh my god, what did- so what the cliffhanger is, Kristy, who is bunking with Stacey, is asking her a question at night and like, looks at the bunk underneath and is like, "Oh my God, what happened to your face?" And I'm sitting here going, Oh my God, what happened to her face? Because I don't spend time in the woods.
Kaykay Brady: 16:53
Yeah, I was wondering if you'd catch it. And also, there was no poison ivy. I did pause it and look because I knew where they were going with this, and there was no poison ivy. That's pretty much all you get on the East Coast is poison ivy, so...
Brooke Suchomel: 17:05
Which is why, when I was very recently camping, which I, again, don't do regularly, and I saw leaves, I had to text you and your partner with like, "Hey guys, is this poison ivy? Because I don't know."
Kaykay Brady: 17:21
We got back to you in a timely fashion, I believe.
Brooke Suchomel: 17:23
That can be a helpful service, Ask a Lesbian If Something is Dangerous.
Kaykay Brady: 17:27
"Is this a radial saw? How do I operate this?" It was not. You were looking for poison oak, right?
Brooke Suchomel: 17:36
I was like, is it poison ivy, poison oak? Like, I don't know.
Kaykay Brady: 17:38
Yeah, we don't have ivy too much out here. We have mostly oak.
Brooke Suchomel: 17:42
And you explained that and that was helpful. I have no idea. I'm like, basically, "Am I going to be itchy if I touch this? This is just what I need to know." Ask a lesbian if you will be itchy or touch something. That's my new app.
Kaykay Brady: 17:55
Ask A Lesbian Dot Com. So we've got Old Lesbian Subarus- although I was thinking about that website, and I was thinking, they might think it's old lesbians selling their
Brooke Suchomel: 18:04
That's even better, actually. They'll have Subarus. lower mileage.
Kaykay Brady: 18:13
More experience with the vehicle.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:15
Yeah, yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 18:16
Ah, that's amazing.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:17
Oh, man. I know, it's like normally you say, "Oh yeah, she only drove it to church on Sundays," but "She only drove it to the Unitarian Church on Sundays."
Kaykay Brady: 18:26
She only drove it to drag brunch.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:28
Only drove to soccer practice. We almost get, though, I thought this episode, something approaching text for a gay plotline.
Kaykay Brady: 18:39
Throw it down. I didn't catch that.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:41
Kristy. There was a lot of coded queerness, I thought. So first of all, the archery.
Kaykay Brady: 18:50
Oh, pssh.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:52
Kristy. You see Kristy, and she's just-
Kaykay Brady: 18:54
Bullseye.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:54
Boom. Yeah, no problem.
Kaykay Brady: 18:57
Yeah. And I have to say, that resonated with me. I mean, I went axe throwing with my partner. It was my birthday, of course, so she took me axe throwing.
Brooke Suchomel: 19:04
That's the traditional birthday gift for lesbians, right?
Kaykay Brady: 19:09
Yeah, exactly. We'd never done it before, and you get like a quick tutorial, obviously, from the person that owns it. And the coach was sort of going around to all the groups, and it was all straight people, and then it was us. And she came over to us and she was like, "Throw, let me see." And I was like, BLAP! Bullseye. She was like, "Damn!" And I turned to her and I go, "We're lesbians." She goes, "I'm a lesbian too." Like, the straight people were a disaster. The fuckin' axes were going everywhere.
Brooke Suchomel: 19:40
All the more proof it's genetic, right?
Kaykay Brady: 19:43
That's right. I think about that, too. I'm like, and I don't want to stereotype, I know there's plenty of lesbians who are not sporty lesbians, so you are welcome, too. You have a place at this table as well. But come on, like, I wonder, is it genetic? Or just like, we're freed from the oppression of wanting male attention in that way and so we can just thrive.
Brooke Suchomel: 20:04
Maybe.
Kaykay Brady: 20:04
I think about it a lot. But anyway, it resonated with me incredibly, because of course I was good at archery.
Brooke Suchomel: 20:09
I expected nothing less.
Kaykay Brady: 20:11
You're like, "What? You were good at archery? Get the fuck outta here!"
Brooke Suchomel: 20:13
I was expecting you to critique her form, I mean, Kaykay's Archery Takes, a recurring segment.
Kaykay Brady: 20:20
Right. Oh, and not only was there archery, there was a Hunger Games shout out, which I kind of thought was funny.
Brooke Suchomel: 20:28
And the art teacher calls her "Thomas." So the art teacher calls her by her last name.
Kaykay Brady: 20:33
Which is so gay! "Hey Thomas, nice shot at the archery range."
Brooke Suchomel: 20:40
So I am holding on hope so strongly that we actually get- I mean, it's not like this is an unusual read for people to say like, Kristy is very clearly coded queer. Saying "very clearly coded queer" is hard.
Kaykay Brady: 20:58
Very clearly coded queer. Very clearly coded queer. That is difficult.
Brooke Suchomel: 21:02
Kristy is very clearly coded queer. But why wouldn't we have that made explicit?
Kaykay Brady: 21:09
It would be great, yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 21:11
Let's fucking do it! Like, that should be no more controversial than Mary Anne crushing on Logan.
Kaykay Brady: 21:19
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 21:20
Can you even imagine what the reaction would have been like in like the 90s, even 10 years ago, with a sympathetic and empathetic portrayal of a trans girl?
Kaykay Brady: 21:34
Yeah, no, it would have would have been an outrage.
Brooke Suchomel: 21:37
I mean, it would have been like a frickin' national scandal, which is just crazy to think about. And it's like, let's just keep pushing. Just keep- like, the door has been opened, like not even a crack, it's like someone's holding one of those fire doors open. Let's kick the other fire door open. Let's tear down the fire doors. Let's do it.
Kaykay Brady: 21:56
Fuck yeah. I'm with you! Come on, writers!
Brooke Suchomel: 21:58
Come on, writers.
Kaykay Brady: 21:59
Yeah, I would be so happy.
Brooke Suchomel: 22:00
Let's make Kristy the queer character that we all know that she is.
Kaykay Brady: 22:05
Fuck yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 22:05
So fingers crossed for that.
Kaykay Brady: 22:08
Kristy was so fuckin' funny in this episode. The snappy dialogue between Meany, the camp director...
Brooke Suchomel: 22:15
Uh huh, from Passaic, New Jersey.
Kaykay Brady: 22:16
From Passaic, New Jersey! Who looks like she actually is from Passaic, New Jersey, which I loved. I don't know if she's Canadian, but...
Brooke Suchomel: 22:24
No, she's not, actually. She's a comedic actress.
Kaykay Brady: 22:28
I figured. She seemed like she was not some sort of local hire. And they just have like the most incredible back and forth, where Kristy's saying, you know, Kristy basically, when she sees that they're all split up, she of course speaks up and says, "We're supposed to be together. Actually, this is kind of like a business retreat."
Brooke Suchomel: 22:31
Right. "This is a corporate retreat. Please facilitate our corporate retreat."
Kaykay Brady: 22:51
I was dying. I thought that was gold between Kristy and Meany. I loved that dialogue.
Brooke Suchomel: 22:58
She tries to like negotiate, you know, with like, "Look, we'll be counselors." So the plot of the actual book is they become counselors in training.
Kaykay Brady: 23:08
Ooh, the CITs.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:10
The CITs. So it's a little nod to that, where she's like, "We'll be counselors in training," you know, trying to take a leadership role to get what she wants.
Kaykay Brady: 23:20
But here you have to be 16.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:22
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 23:23
Here in modern world where nothing is crazy, you have to be 16.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:27
How old were you when you were a counselor in training?
Kaykay Brady: 23:29
Well, I never was a CIT. I was just a counselor, and that was in college.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:32
You didn't need training. You were like, "Let me show you how I throw an axe. Let me show you how I shoot an arrow. You don't need to train me on shit."
Kaykay Brady: 23:40
I will say, though, I had one kid that totally gender shamed a kid in my group, and that kid regretted it. I will just say that he never gender shamed anyone ever again.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:50
What happened?
Kaykay Brady: 23:51
Well, this kid, this kid was so sweet. My kids were like four and five. They were so little. And we were in art class. And you know, you could do like a princess crown or a king crown, and he did a princess crown. And so he was wearing his princess crown around and I was like a lion, dude. Nobody was gonna shame that kid wearing his fucking princess crown. And this older kid, like a 10 year old came over, "Princess Matthew, blah blah blah," and I let him fucking have it, yo. Do not step to your lesbian counselor. Do not.
Brooke Suchomel: 24:26
No. No. About anything, particularly about a sweet little boy in a princess crown.
Kaykay Brady: 24:32
I mean, I was chill, but like, no, you're not gonna take Matt's princess crown. It's not gonna happen. Not on my watch.
Brooke Suchomel: 24:39
Oh my god. I just see, like, Hulk Smash.
Kaykay Brady: 24:41
He cried!
Brooke Suchomel: 24:43
High five. Make that 10 year old child...
Kaykay Brady: 24:46
"Make children cry!"
Brooke Suchomel: 24:47
And who was that gender shaming boy? That gender shaming boy was RuPaul.
Kaykay Brady: 24:54
RuPaul Charles was my camper in Greenwich, Connecticut.
Brooke Suchomel: 24:58
Oh man. The Kristy subplot was very, that seemed like the C plot, right? It was kind of in the background.
Kaykay Brady: 25:06
And it felt very comic relief to me.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:09
Yeah, very much so.
Kaykay Brady: 25:10
It was pretty fucking funny. The whole time, she's trying to be a counselor. And she's actually creating really fun and smart games, and the main camp owners keep coming over and being like, "You're not a counselor." Oh, and she said something hilarious, she said, "Someday you're gonna regret all the TV you didn't watch." What? I couldn't- like, I roared with laughter.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:30
That was so funny. So that whole scene, like all of the Kristy stuff was hilarious to me. That's when I had to like pause and go back, because I was like, Oh, my god, that was so good. That was so funny. That was so smart.
Kaykay Brady: 25:41
I did the same.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:42
The way that, what was it, like rain starts
Kaykay Brady: 25:42
Yeah, I think she had them roaring or something, coming in, or something happens where everybody needs to go depending on the points you got or something told them to do inside while they're out doing archery. And Kristy is like, that. "Alright, everybody!" And starts like coming up with like, a game they'll do to try to get everybody organized, something very much like what happens in the books. Where we're always like, this is really complicated, you know? And in
Brooke Suchomel: 26:05
And everybody just looked at her, because the books, the kids are all like, they just get it and they do it, and they're like, "Yay!" It's a total nod to that. But in the show, the kids just look at her. Like, "What? No, we're not all gonna, like, get on the ground and pretend to be bears," you know? that's what would happen now, right?
Kaykay Brady: 26:31
Oh, speaking of what would happen now, I'm glad they didn't do it this way, but I believe those kids would have been very upset that they weren't in the same bunk and they would have texted their parents immediately. And then the parents would have gotten on the phone and like ripped the camp director a new asshole, and then they would have been together. But you can't have Kristy texting her mom, that's just not Kristy.
Brooke Suchomel: 26:50
Right. No, Kristy's- she just took it upon herself to be like a rogue counselor. And I like how you see her just sort of sitting in like a lawn chair, reading. I don't know what she was reading, probably like a US Weekly or something, I don't know, instead of like, being a child. So when the counselor is like, "There is going to be a time when you look back in your life and you regret all of the TV you didn't watch," that is the song of an 80s kid. Right? That's a modern moment, where you've got those of us that grew up spending our summers watching soap operas and game shows, MTV, whatever was on, and looking back on that time fondly. That is something that our generation would say.
Kaykay Brady: 27:35
Well, I like that read, because I couldn't figure it out. I didn't have a read on it. It was hilarious to me, but I was like, what does that mean? What is that saying about the character? I had no idea. So I think that's a good read.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:47
Yeah. To me, it meant that that character is like, "Your childhood is TV." Because for so many of us, that was our childhood. It wasn't like, Oh, you've got to, like, be involved in all these activities and go from place to place.
Kaykay Brady: 28:00
Oh, hell no.
Brooke Suchomel: 28:01
It wasn't like from the day you were born, you're being given all of these extracurriculars that will get you into a good college, right? You're just watching TV and riding your bike.
Kaykay Brady: 28:12
It was a magical time. I mean, in the summer, I would just leave at like nine in the morning and just come back at 10. And I would just be wherever I wanted to fucking be, with whoever I wanted to be. It was glorious. My parents weren't even home. I mean, they worked, so if they were home, it wasn't until after six. It was real nice. Come home, watch Terminator 2 for the 1000th time, have some American cheese and whole milk. Yes!
Brooke Suchomel: 28:41
That's 80s. Milk. An 80s childhood, sponsored by the Dairy Association of America. Oh my gosh.
Kaykay Brady: 28:47
Yeah. I loved milk so much. And you know, my mom switched us to low fat milk, and I was so sad.
Brooke Suchomel: 28:54
Rebelled.
Kaykay Brady: 28:54
I did. I would go to my friends' houses and like drink a whole gallon. They'd be like, "Are you okay?" Little full fat milk, it's good for ya!
Brooke Suchomel: 29:02
Yeah, so that was my take on it. And then also, you've got Kristy's focus on survival skills. Like...
Kaykay Brady: 29:11
And she's kind of screaming it to the heavens, like, "These survival skills are important!"
Brooke Suchomel: 29:18
They've gotta be going there in Season Two for Kristy. They've gotta be going there! They have to. Ah, gosh, so that was sort of the most minor plot, but it was really fun. It was the comic relief, I thought, of the show. I agree with you on that completely. It seems like the main plot was sort of this putting on a show plot that you get with Mary Anne, and Stacey and Logan are the stars of the show. They're the leads.
Kaykay Brady: 29:46
And Mary Anne becomes quite the Boss Lady as the director.
Brooke Suchomel: 29:52
It's nice to see Mary Anne take on a position of authority.
Kaykay Brady: 29:55
Yeah, she really leans into that in this episode. I have to say, Mary Anne's character is like my favorite character now. Whereas the first episode I was like, "Ah, this character I don't get, it's not working for me." Now I just think she's great. And I really think, I don't know, you could really see her work on Broadway as an adult and just being this sort of like quirky, powerful weirdo. And that's cool. She's really emerging for me as a very full person and character.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:23
Yeah, the fact that she was the one that was isolated from the rest of the group and had to make connections with people, because she didn't know anybody else. That really forced her to come into her own and, you know, display her individuality more.
Kaykay Brady: 30:42
Yeah, kind of pushed her into that challenging space. And she really rises to it.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:46
Yep. And then through the show, we get the introduction of Jessi.
Kaykay Brady: 30:52
Yeah, Jessi shows up.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:53
Yeah. Both Jessi and Mallory are on the crew. Jessi tries out for this play by doing ballet, so that's how we know that it's Jessi, and then she becomes the choreographer. I've seen both Mallory and Jessi in promotional stills in Claudia's room, so they're gonna take on increasing levels of importance in the series in the next season.
Kaykay Brady: 31:22
And fuckin' savage Karen does Hamlet's suicide
Brooke Suchomel: 31:27
Jesus! It was so smart, too, that they didn't speech. start it with "To be or not to be," right? Cuz everybody knows that, but the fact that they're like, "We're gonna start it like later on in the soliloquy, so that this is for like, the true Shakespeare heads." Yeah. Karen is...
Kaykay Brady: 31:45
Sa-vage. Sa-vage! She's also like talking about the theater being haunted.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:52
Yeah, she comes up to Mary Anne, as Mary Anne is sort of sadly trudging towards her cabin where she'll be solo, and is kind of feeling depressed about that. Karen skips up to her and is like, "There's a lot of dangerous animals in here, and also, there's a hermit ghost that haunts the theater. Bye!" And skips away? So great. And then reappears to give Hamlet's soliloquy as her tryout.
Kaykay Brady: 32:17
In my head, I kept thinking hermit crab, and then it reminded me of, I had a hermit crab that I got at the Jersey Shore that escaped in my room and died. And then my room smelled like Cheerios for like six months.
Brooke Suchomel: 32:29
A dead hermit crab smells like Cheerios?
Kaykay Brady: 32:32
Yeah, exactly. So I had a hermit crab ghost!
Brooke Suchomel: 32:37
And now every time you have a bowl of Cheerios, you say a prayer for your dead hermit crab.
Kaykay Brady: 32:42
Correct. Correct. So anyway, I just may be more, you know, diving into my psychology than we need. But I kept thinking of hermit crabs and hermit crab ghosts.
Brooke Suchomel: 32:52
Aww. I'm glad that you had a connection to this plot in that way. So that is the chilling mystery we get. I mean, they're in a space that has apparently fallen into disrepair, and so light fixtures are falling, likely due to rotted beams. But sure, it could be due to the hermit crab ghost. Thanks, Karen. And then the other plot that we get is, as you mentioned, Dawn and Claudia are protesting the social stratification that we see with the fact that people are required to cough up more money to participate in activities that they've signed up for, and not everybody has that. So they decided that they're going to try to put on their own sort of free rogue art camp, where they all work together to come up with like art from nature and woods. They get scolded for that and told to stop, and Claudia is like, "No," like a total badass. The line delivery when she's like, "No," when they tell her to leave and to stop teaching art to the less fortunate?
Kaykay Brady: 34:03
Badass.
Brooke Suchomel: 34:03
Total badass. And she basically becomes a political prisoner in her cabin, and Dawn is taking on the role of spreading awareness of this through her morning announcements that she does, "Dawn in the Morning."
Kaykay Brady: 34:19
So funny, more comic relief. That was just hilarious how Dawn is trying to talk about what she wants to talk about, but then you know, Meany comes in, and then she's like, "Everything's fine!"
Brooke Suchomel: 34:29
Looking at her from across the room and Dawn's trying to give coded messages basically, over the airwaves to try to inspire a revolt.
Kaykay Brady: 34:38
Yeah, I'll be so curious where they take these camp director characters, because, interestingly enough, they're about as close as we've gotten to villains in the entire series.
Brooke Suchomel: 34:49
The art teacher in particular.
Kaykay Brady: 34:50
Yeah, the art teacher in particular is getting a hard read, which is funny because she looks like a kid from like Williamsburg or something.
Brooke Suchomel: 34:57
Oh, yeah, definitely hipster.
Kaykay Brady: 34:58
They're definitely not making her some sort of like, shitty mom character, right? You know, not that kind of stereotype. So it's interesting. And they're also giving us a little bit of empathy for the situation that the director is in. Especially through Kristy, because Kristy is sort of the capitalist, and speaks that language with the art director, right? She's like, "26 years of running this camp? I appreciate your service!" Like, that kind of thing. So I'll be just really curious if they keep them as villains, or if they try to sort of expand it to like, you know, everybody struggles under this system. It's just the shit rolls downhill, you know?
Brooke Suchomel: 35:40
Yeah. The read that I had on those two characters is the art teacher is definitely the one who is like, she's the hipster who's sort of clueless to her own privilege.
Kaykay Brady: 35:53
Ah yeah, that's a good read.
Brooke Suchomel: 35:55
Where I'm sure she has like a "Coexist" bumper sticker, but then what?
Kaykay Brady: 36:00
She has one of those Earth-Art bumper stickers.
Brooke Suchomel: 36:02
For sure. But it's like, but then what do you do besides put a bumper sticker on? You know, are you actually perpetuating some of the harms that you call out as bad, right here at this camp? You are. And then I think the read that we get, at least the read that I got for Philomena "Meany" Means from Passaic, New Jersey, is that she means well, but she's just sort of caught up in the bureaucracy. And she's just so focused, you know, she says a couple of times, like, "I can't stand another lawsuit. I can't get sued." So she's just like, just get through this, harm reduction. No lawsuits from any parents for this camp, that's what she wants. So that's why they tell her to stop teaching this unsanctioned art class, because it's a liability, because they're out there without any adult supervision.
Kaykay Brady: 36:57
Well, which is a very modern moment, right? Because you know, when we were kids, there was not a lot of oversight at camps, or like, safety, or really, anything that's happening in camps today. It was like, you know, "Just don't die. Hopefully you don't die."
Brooke Suchomel: 37:13
"We hope you don't die." Yes.
Kaykay Brady: 37:15
Like, fingers crossed.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:16
Fingers crossed. That was the safety measures that were put in place at the camps we went to. All of the adults are just crossing their fingers. They just crossed their fingers for a week.
Kaykay Brady: 37:27
Yeah. And now I think we've, you know, moved into a more litigious space where a lot of that can't happen anymore. And like, it's complicated, because, you know, kids don't have the same level of freedom, which kind of sucks.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:42
Yeah, like, how can you keep kids both physically and emotionally safe?
Kaykay Brady: 37:45
Right. Yeah, exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:47
That's a balance I don't know that we've quite struck yet.
Kaykay Brady: 37:49
Right. Well, the pendulum swings too, you know. I was reading about how a lot of helicopter parenting is a result of just the crazy parenting we got in the 80s and 90s, of like, no parenting.
Brooke Suchomel: 38:03
Yeah. Everybody's trying to right the wrongs that they experienced as a child, and sometimes you overcorrect.
Kaykay Brady: 38:11
Yeah, exactly. But you definitely are right that we get all sides of that. And I do think it's totally valid. Like, they could have had her come in and be a complete villain and just say, "Now, I don't want to do this," but instead she's like, "I don't want to get sued." And you could really see in that moment that like, she has suffered. And she's trying to make it too, like she's trying to make it in this system, too. She's so tired. So like, I think a big part of the the casting of this person, just great casting, like, a lot being done with her face. Just this world weariness that you really buy.
Brooke Suchomel: 38:48
Yeah, she has, like, her roots are grown out.
Kaykay Brady: 38:50
Her roots are totally grown out. She's got the COVID style of nine months of gray, and then like three months of dye.
Brooke Suchomel: 38:59
Right. We get it. We've been there. We've all been there.
Kaykay Brady: 39:03
So anyway, I'll just be really curious. To me, that's a real cliffhanger.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:07
Yeah. It seems like there was empathy for all of the characters that we see, as there always is, with perhaps the exception of the art teacher, who is the most villainous.
Kaykay Brady: 39:16
Yeah, exactly. Which is the most interesting to me.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:18
Who is, the Williamsburg hipster?
Kaykay Brady: 39:20
Yeah. Which is very interesting to me.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:21
Uh huh. Which, I also kind of felt that too.
Kaykay Brady: 39:24
Yeah. But when I think about it, I'm like, well, dude, you know that art teacher's gotta pay rent in Williamsburg. What's she going to do? Like, not make a salary? Her options are probably limited too.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:37
Yeah, we'll see in the next episode if they're able to achieve Dawn's goal of turning this utopia into reality. This is supposed to be a utopian environment, according to Claudia and Dawn, and there's social stratification and injustice, and so they've got to fight against it. And Dawn's not gonna take this shit lying down. That is for sure, which is like a warm hug to me. I love that so much.
Kaykay Brady: 40:05
Dawn is so great. I mean, they're just- I'm a broken record. But all these characters are so great.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:11
What did you have for what they were fighting?
Kaykay Brady: 40:13
Two things. I had dealing with systems and bureaucracy. And then I also had struggling to be kids, which is sort of like the first time I think in this Netflix series that we get that. But like, Kristy especially, they're explicitly setting it up from Meany's perspective, as Kristy is just struggling to be a kid, you know. Like, she's not being present, she's not having fun, she's trying to control, blah blah blah. I mean, kind of all of them are struggling to be present, because of their circumstances or the injustice that they're seeing, so they're really having to kind of rise up against these systems.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:52
Yeah, as you're talking, it's like the different pairs in the different cabins are fighting different things. You've got Stacey and Mary Anne fighting interpersonal relationship difficulties. You've got Stacey with Laine, and then you've got Mary Anne being on her own and having to form new relationships, which we've seen has not necessarily been a strong suit, something she's got a lot of practice in. And then she's also got her crush, that she is generally quite nervous around, that she has to direct, and he's got to kiss her friend and all of that. So there's that turmoil going on. And then you've got Dawn and Claudia fighting the man, effectively. Fighting this unjust system that we're all living in. And then you have Kristy sort of fighting with herself, you know, where I think the thing that they were doing, that the writers were calling to mind for those of us that have read the book series, is that Kristy is not really a kid in the books. All of the baby sitters, to varying degrees, are mature beyond their years, and are given responsibilities that far exceed what they should at their age. But Kristy in particular is like, she's like a corporate officer from jump, right? She feels a lot of the weight of adulthood on her shoulders. I think we're getting a read of Meany that isn't quite so mean, that she seems to notice that in Kristy, and is like, "You don't have much longer to be a child. Use this time."
Kaykay Brady: 42:31
And go watch some fucking TV.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:32
Go watch some fucking TV. It's dope. So yeah, as you were talking, that made me think about it in those terms, and I think that that makes a lot of sense. What I had written down as sort of the thematic thing they were fighting was disappointment. Things not going to plan. Things not living up to ideals. You know, they get there and they're immediately disappointed by rain and then they're all split up. And then Kristy is disappointed that she can't take on this leadership role that she wants to take on. Dawn and Claudia are both disillusioned by what they see in the system, and how the adults aren't willing to step up and help to alleviate people's suffering. And then Stacey is, I think, disappointed to see Laine there. And Mary Anne, I think, to a lesser extent the disappointment works. But you know, she was disappointed to be split up from her friends at the beginning. So that's what I had for the theme. And I didn't have that there was really any tool that they were using to fight it, because they were just immersed in it. I think we'll find the tool that they use to fight all of that in the next episode.
Kaykay Brady: 43:38
Yeah, it's interesting. I will say that they're all very, what's the word, empowered around it. So they definitely use empowerment as a tool.
Brooke Suchomel: 43:50
That's true, they step up.
Kaykay Brady: 43:52
Which is kind of a double edged sword. Because empowerment is lovely, and sometimes you don't get to process your disappointment. You can miss the emotion and go right into action. And so maybe I see a little bit of that happening here. And that's very fitting for the books, right? The whole book, like we joked and laughed all the time about how the books was like, "Capitalism! So you don't have to feel your feelings!" You know?
Brooke Suchomel: 44:18
Right. "Capitalism solves every problem." Don't quote us on that.
Kaykay Brady: 44:22
So now it's not exactly capitalism, maybe it's fighting against capitalism. But anyway, what they are doing is getting empowered. What I don't see a lot of is processing the feelings that are coming up, especially with Kristy. You really see that in Kristy, it's almost like a manic need to stay busy. There was like a little bit of like, hypomania flavor to Kristy, such as she can't sleep, she's talking to Stacey. But, you know, I definitely see, especially with Kristy, a lot of empowerment, not as much sitting with feelings, and we'll see what happens in the second episode with that. Like, do they get to process feelings? Remember when Kristy process or feelings on like a chip bag? I feel like maybe there's something coming like that, where that's how Kristy eventually processes her feelings, is she kind of gets pushed against the wall and has to.
Brooke Suchomel: 45:16
And she makes a God's eye. She processes her feelings via yarn. See, the yarn keeps coming up. The yarn keeps coming up.
Kaykay Brady: 45:24
What was the yarn quote? It was like, "Well behaved yarn rarely makes history."
Brooke Suchomel: 45:28
Oh, right.
Kaykay Brady: 45:30
The play on that quote? That was kind of funny.
Brooke Suchomel: 45:32
So maybe that's the solution.
Kaykay Brady: 45:34
They're very into yarn on this show.
Brooke Suchomel: 45:35
They really are. They really are.
Kaykay Brady: 45:38
And then also, there was a joke about Laine saying like, "Oh, we were meant to be at camp together." And then Stacey says, "Or maybe our moms just get the same Facebook ads." I loved that. Yes, correct.
Brooke Suchomel: 45:48
Yes, I had that one too. So good. That was my favorite one, the "or maybe our moms get the same Facebook ads.” Yeah, Stacey's definitely going to be a marketing director. She gets that. I also had Dawn, how Dawn gets off of the bus and does a grounding breath, and how she explicitly uses the phrase "radical empathy."
Kaykay Brady: 46:13
Yeah, yeah. Radical empathy. I heard that.
Brooke Suchomel: 46:16
Yeah. And then obviously, Hamilton. The Hamilton poster is what Mary Anne and Laine bond over.
Kaykay Brady: 46:24
Yeah, it's really interesting, too, that you mentioned the radical empathy, because we're not seeing a lot of it in this episode. For a show that's typically pretty filled with radical empathy, it's probably the least radically empathizing show of the nine.
Brooke Suchomel: 46:40
What about Claudia and Dawn, though? It seems like their whole plot is based on them acknowledging this girl.
Kaykay Brady: 46:48
Right, but I radical empathy would also include the camp director and the art director from Williamsburg. That would be true radical empathy. And like I said, it's the first episode we see where there's a villain, which is like, on its face, the flip side of radical empathy is villainizing and othering. So it makes me wonder, is there gonna be a cliffhanger where the show people are playing with this idea? I'm very curious.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:15
Well, I'm excited to find out if they have a radically empathetic resolution to what we see in the next episode.
Kaykay Brady: 47:24
And it feels like a really good setup for a finale. So many of the themes are coming back around. They've done a really good job of, you know, investing you in these characters and raising stakes, the way that you'd hope like an arc of season would go, so I'm psyched to see.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:39
Definitely. Well, I'm looking forward to talking with you about that next week.
Kaykay Brady: 47:44
Yeah, Mooseknuckle 2!
Brooke Suchomel: 47:47
Mooseknuckle 2: The Mooseknuckleing.
Kaykay Brady: 47:51
Mooseknuckle 2: Electric Boogaloo.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:55
But until then...
Kaykay Brady: 47:56
Just keep sittin'. [THEME] Very clearly coded queer. Very clearly coded queer.
