Transcript - BSFC Netflix #3: The Truth About Stacey

Brooke Suchomel: 0:18

Welcome to the Baby-sitters Fight Club, where the first rule is, you don't talk about Fight Club. Instead, you talk about the battles fought and the lessons learned in the Baby-sitters Club series of books by Ann M. Martin and the corresponding television show on Netflix. I'm Brooke Suchomel, an editor who's revisiting these books after 30 years.

Kaykay Brady: 0:37

And I'm Kaykay Brady. I'm a therapist, and I' new to the books and new to the- well, not so new anymore to the Netflix series, but a few episodes in.

Brooke Suchomel: 0:46

Yeah, we're now like sophomores in the world of Netflix high school.

Kaykay Brady: 0:50

Freshmen or sophomores.

Brooke Suchomel: 0:51

We're not cool high schoolers. Like, we still park in the very farthest part of the parking lot. But soon enough.

Kaykay Brady: 0:57

You had parking at your high school? Shit.

Brooke Suchomel: 0:59

Oh yeah. Well, I mean, Iowa.

Kaykay Brady: 1:01

Right. A lot of parking. "Ample parking, day or night!”

Brooke Suchomel: 1:04

Yeah, exactly. No, people in the Midwest do take great pride in the fact that there's adequate parking. Anyways, in this episode we are discussing Episode Three of the Netflix series, "The Truth About Stacey." Netflix's description of this episode is, quote, "As competition heats up for the BSC," gotta love the acronym. That's some fan shit right there. "Stacey attempts to hide a personal secret and revisits a painful event from her past." So Kaykay, anything that's left out of this description, or does that give a good encapsulation of what we get in this half hour?

Kaykay Brady: 1:44

BSA agency!

Brooke Suchomel: 1:49

Yeah, I think that's the competition that they hint at there.

Kaykay Brady: 1:52

Yeah, the diabetes plot, Baby-sitters Agency plot, which creates the Kid Kits.

Brooke Suchomel: 1:57

I love that we see the lightbulb moment.

Kaykay Brady: 2:01

Kristy's like, "Oh, we're taking flak from the Baby-sitters Agency? Kid Kits!"

Brooke Suchomel: 2:07

What did you think about how we see Kristy in this episode versus how we see her in the book?

Kaykay Brady: 2:14

She's a little less frantic. And also she doesn't do like racing to the bottom type things where she's like, let's cut costs and blah blah blah. How about you? What were the differences you saw?

Brooke Suchomel: 2:26

Yeah, well, I thought it was great that there was no "let's do housework for free!"

Kaykay Brady: 2:33

Although there were the sandwich boards, but I don't think it said "Younger is better."

Brooke Suchomel: 2:37

They did not say "Younger is better." They also were not at the mall or wearing it in their school.

Kaykay Brady: 2:44

Yeah, they were just walking around the neighborhood.

Brooke Suchomel: 2:46

Right, with cowbell.

Kaykay Brady: 2:47

The cowbell was a great fucking add! It was just Kristy, clang, clang! "Bring out your dead!" I thought the cowbell was a strong add. And then also I think Claudia said, "You know, basically this is the stuff of my worst nightmares come to pass."

Brooke Suchomel: 3:05

Oh, yeah, it was Mary Anne. Mary Anne says, "Kristy's one of those It clowns bringing my nightmares into the daylight."

Kaykay Brady: 3:14

Yeah, I love the It clown, especially because we kind of had an It clown moment with the Baby-sitters Agency's red balloon, where Charlotte wanders in with the balloon that says the Baby-sitters Agency at the park.

Brooke Suchomel: 3:28

Then they walk down to find Pennywise standing there, handing out branded tote bags to the yoga moms.

Kaykay Brady: 3:35

How amazing would it be if the Baby-sitters Agency was run by Pennywise?

Brooke Suchomel: 3:38

I think it is. Lacy Lewis pulled some serious Pennywise shit. She's trying to like murder poor Stacey with the nonsense that happened there.

Kaykay Brady: 3:49

Oh, and my brain is going 1000 miles an hour. There was so much fun stuff in this episode. Like you said, the tote bags, a fucking Klean Kanteen. How are they paying for all this merch?

Brooke Suchomel: 4:03

So much merch.

Kaykay Brady: 4:05

So much merch, which I thought was fucking hilarious. But I was like, seriously, how are they paying for this?

Brooke Suchomel: 4:11

Right? Well, Lacy, I mean, we don't get the amazing 70s names in this, unfortunately. So it's Lacy Lewis instead of Liz Lewis. And we see that, you know, it's not just handing out flyers. In the book, they find out about the Baby-sitters Agency because Janine finds a flyer. She gets a flyer and races into...

Kaykay Brady: 4:35

Yeah, they're like blanketing cars and mailboxes and stuff in the neighborhood.

Brooke Suchomel: 4:39

It's the same sort of distribution technique, that analog distribution technique, the Baby-sitters Club used. And in this, she's put together a highly produced digital ad.

Kaykay Brady: 4:51

I loved that fucking ad! Especially because at the end, it blinks, "We stay out late!"

Brooke Suchomel: 4:57

Yeah, totally. So you see that clash of them pointing out their differentiating factors, and that still drives Kristy to come up with a differentiating factor. So we do get that theme throughout. It's just Kristy focuses more on positive differentiating factors as opposed to negative, "We'll basically babysit for nothing, and we'll do your laundry while we're at it," which is what you see her propose in the book.

Kaykay Brady: 5:25

Exactly. And also her feet seem more on the ground, you know, she doesn't seem to get swept up so completely in a rush of like, "must compete at all costs" and sort of lose the original values. There's not quite that story playing out.

Brooke Suchomel: 5:41

Yeah, she's more strategic than, like, spiraling, but she does read Sun Tzu.

Kaykay Brady: 5:48

Oh, that seems completely reasonable to me.

Brooke Suchomel: 5:51

The scene where Kristy is trying to communicate the lessons that she learned from Sun Tzu?

Kaykay Brady: 6:02

Right. It was phenomenal.

Brooke Suchomel: 6:04

Like, I kind of hope that that was in the actress's reel that was submitted for Emmy consideration because she sold that. it was so good.

Kaykay Brady: 6:15

And I don't know if you noticed, but she's giving her spiel in front of a women's soccer poster.

Brooke Suchomel: 6:21

No, I didn't even notice that.

Kaykay Brady: 6:22

Yes, yes. I think it's an Xbox women's team FIFA poster, and I was like, that really puts a fucking bow on it for me. Kristy is exactly the person that would have soccer posters on her wall. And she would be spouting Art of War truisms in front of said soccer poster.

Brooke Suchomel: 6:42

I love that.

Kaykay Brady: 6:43

I mean, whoever writes this is so brilliant.

Brooke Suchomel: 6:46

Good job, writers. Seriously.

Kaykay Brady: 6:48

Good job, writers.

Brooke Suchomel: 6:49

It's amazing. They are really staying true to the original principles of the book and to what we know about these characters, but bringing them into modern day in a way that feels natural, which could not have been easy to do. That's harder than it sounds.

Kaykay Brady: 7:07

The other thing that's really funny to notice is, you can notice extra things about your favorite characters. So for example, you didn't notice the soccer, but I did. And I'm sure there's like stuff about Claudia's clothes and stuff that you're noticing.

Brooke Suchomel: 7:20

Yeah, did you see her windbreaker that she wears? Oh my God. The colorblock windbreaker? I died.

Kaykay Brady: 7:28

I mean, all the clothes. Everything Claudia wears, I take note of, and I rarely notice clothes, so...

Brooke Suchomel: 7:35

That's how good it is.

Kaykay Brady: 7:36

That's how good it is.

Brooke Suchomel: 7:37

Yeah.

Kaykay Brady: 7:38

But I do notice soccer players.

Brooke Suchomel: 7:40

Of course you do. You're like a homing pigeon for any sort of...

Kaykay Brady: 7:43

I've got that soccer radar.

Brooke Suchomel: 7:44

Totally. Yeah, so we do get some more character development, especially in the characters that I felt like have been sort of muted so far, like Mary Anne in particular.

Kaykay Brady: 7:54

I agree.

Brooke Suchomel: 7:55

I found her to be a great comic relief in this.

Kaykay Brady: 7:58

Yeah, exactly. She had more personality that way. Or maybe I'm just warming up to her, I don't know. But I totally agree, she seemed more whole.

Brooke Suchomel: 8:07

Yeah. They go to Jamie Newton's house when they find him out on the curb, and go in to see that the Baby-sitters Agency representative is there with her boyfriend who's trying to rap or do beat poetry.

Kaykay Brady: 8:24

Was it rap? Spoken word? Something in between?

Brooke Suchomel: 8:26

Yeah, I was like, okay, I don't know what this is, but you're not great at it. And Mary Anne just goes, "That doesn't rhyme, sir," to this 15 year old. Calls him "sir." And I just thought that that was a really nice touch. I loved Kristy too, like, "Have you no decency?" Those seemed like appropriate reactions. Kristy standing up for what's right, Mary Anne just being kind of like, awkward, but pointing out the obvious and calling somebody "sir." That seemed correct to me.

Kaykay Brady: 8:58

I think it was a nice scene. And also I love that, you know, there's something so cathartic about watching these shows, because all of the things that you thought to yourself when you read the books, like "Why don't fuck didn't you do this?" It happens. They call the parent immediately, which is exactly what you would have to do. And then later in the episode, to deal with the diabetes issue, they bring all of the parents together to have a meeting and conversation about it. So all the times we're talking about, why aren't they involving the parents? Now they're going right to the problem. They're involving parents. It's really cathartic because it seems like probably a more modern way of handling it and a more helpful way of handling it. I mean, the whole book is basically like, "Don't involve parents. They make things worse." It's a huge plot point in many of the books.

Brooke Suchomel: 9:50

Yeah. In The Truth About Stacey, the book, the resolution is quite different than what we see here. Because in The Truth About Stacey, the book, they tell Mrs. Newton right away. And then Mrs. Newton gets on the phone and calls everyone she knows and is like, "Don't hire the Baby-sitters Agency again," and then that's it. That's the resolution of the Baby-sitters Agency plot. Whereas in the TV show, then the Baby-sitters Agency puts out this viral video of Stacey going into insulin shock, and being like, "Is this really the person that you want watching your kids?" And so that makes Stacey's diabetes come to the forefront, which is different than what we see in the book. In the book, the Baby-sitters Club has known about Stacey's diabetes since the end of book one, right? I think it makes a lot of sense for the show, given that we've got 10 episodes, for that to be kind of an underlying thing that bubbles up, you know, a plot point that they can carry through multiple episodes. We get to see them having that conversation that they really have at the end of book one in this episode, so they do some sort of hybridization of books.

Kaykay Brady: 11:09

Yeah, it's smart to bring it up in that sort of viral video way. It really updates the content and stays true in a very modern way to the core of one of the struggles of that book, which is the ableism and healthism that Stacey is going to encounter as someone with a medical diagnosis.

Brooke Suchomel: 11:34

Yeah, definitely. You know, this is something that we had discussed in our episode on the book is what's really the A plot? What's the B plot? What's the driving force? Is it really about Stacey's diabetes, or is it primarily about the Baby-sitters Agency? And we came down that it was the theme of agency in general, in all senses of the word, was a big theme for the book. Because Stacey is spending so much of her time in the book fighting with her parents about how to handle her diabetes, and her parents keep whisking her off to New York. So a lot of the book actually takes place in New York, and is Stacey confronting her former best friend Laine, who is referenced in the TV show.

Kaykay Brady: 12:17

I know, that Laine shared the fucking video, commented on it, and Laine made sure everyone in private school in New York saw the video. What an asshat! Time to lose Laine.

Brooke Suchomel: 12:28

And that actually made a lot more sense to me for, why would they leave New York?

Kaykay Brady: 12:33

Yes, I agree with that. Totally. You know, it's sort of like the viral nature of the video created a scandal that seems possibly big enough that you would actually have to leave town.

Brooke Suchomel: 12:45

Right, or like, this is such a horrible environment for our daughter to be in, because like, literally everyone has seen this. And to see that she doesn't have a network of people that are there to support her. I mean, her best friend is participating in this horrible violation of her privacy, that it would make sense that it's like, "Let's give her a completely different environment to see if she can have a better experience, because this isn't gonna work out for her here." So that made sense. Whereas in the book, it's like...

Kaykay Brady: 13:17

We both were stuck on that. We were like, why would you move because you have diabetes?

Brooke Suchomel: 13:22

Yeah, it was like in Victorian times, where they were like, "Go to the sea! Go to the sea for your health." It was like that. So I thought that made a lot of sense to work that in as an explanation for why they're in Stoneybrook in the first place.

Kaykay Brady: 13:41

Yeah. And it also really ratchets up the drama, because this horrible violation, as you put it, and I think that's put very well, now is introduced into her new life. And that is fucking horrifying. And it's a true reality that teens and tweens are living in today.

Brooke Suchomel: 14:01

Yeah, it's something that I was really thinking about as I was watching this. I actually watched this with my husband. That's something that we talk about a lot, like how difficult it is if your entire life has been documented, and you don't know if something can be pulled up at any time. Just that sort of feeling that your past is always with you, even if you've learned from it or are in a different place in your life, that you can't ever escape your past. That's something that's got to really be difficult on a kid's psyche.

Kaykay Brady: 14:32

Oh, yeah. And the stakes, you know, the stakes of your mistakes. It's stunning to think about, that kids are sort of operating in an environment where they have no space to have things forgotten or make mistakes, you know, like you said, they're just always gonna follow them. And I just think the way that that preys on the most vulnerable parts of our psychology can't be overstated.

Brooke Suchomel: 15:00

Cuz you never feel safe.

Kaykay Brady: 15:02

You never, ever feel safe. And it's a very particular kind of threat, which is social threat, which is like the worst threat to human beings really, that there is the threat of being ostracized, and shunned, and forgotten. It's a lot.

Brooke Suchomel: 15:21

Yeah, man, we're gonna have to like spin up whole new branches of mental health to deal with this specifically.

Kaykay Brady: 15:29

Well, here's the lovely part. I say this to my partner all the time. Oh my god, 16 year old kids, 17 year old kids, 18 year old kids, when you meet them for the first time in therapy, they're not like, "This is stupid." "Fuck this." "What is this?" "Somebody's making me come." I mean, they're like, "My girlfriend's been in therapy. My mom's been in therapy. My mom's gotten a lot out of it. I really believe in mental health." To this generation, it's like working out. Our generation and the generations above us still think it's like wackadoo.

Brooke Suchomel: 16:00

"You need to go to a therapist," like that's an insult or something.

Kaykay Brady: 16:03

Yeah, right. Whereas this generation is like, "Yeah, of course you take care of your mental health. Just like you take care of your hygiene, you take care of your nutrition, you take care of your exercise needs, and you take care of your mental health." So I will say it gives me such hope for this generation because I'm talking about like, not to generalize too much, but you would imagine maybe like older females would feel that way. But no, I'm talking about like, younger, male identified kids, jocks, you know, kids that you might think would have some sort of maybe gender based biases that were given to them about sharing their feelings or talking to somebody. Nope, they're so into it. And it just makes me want to sing.

Brooke Suchomel: 16:42

When you're talking about that, it makes me feel a little bit more hopeful that maybe there's a way to sort of break free from the shame that you might feel from having your past mistakes potentially come back to haunt you at any time, in that anybody's past mistakes can come back to haunt them at any time. If that just becomes part of life, then maybe there's fewer shame for having mistakes in the first point.

Kaykay Brady: 17:08

Yeah, what an interesting point.

Brooke Suchomel: 17:09

You know, because we've all been through it. Now granted, that's on the presumption that there is an equality and transparency in information being shared that isn't necessarily the case. And that things are presented as they truthfully are and not manipulated, which we also know is not the case. But it does seem like there could be some sort of swing in the other direction.

Kaykay Brady: 17:35

It would be so lovely. I mean, it would be so lovely if what comes at the end of this is a bigger acceptance of the profound humaneness of human beings. That would be beautiful. It doesn't feel like we're there yet. It feels like first we're going maybe in the other direction. But I think you're right, like, at some point, it's not sustainable. And it's going to have to swing back where people start realizing, what are the really important things?

Brooke Suchomel: 18:02

Yeah. And if you're human, you're gonna fuck up. And that's okay. It's how do you handle that? You know, how do you grow from that? How can you say, like, "Yeah, this is who I was, or what I did, and this is what I learned from that. And this is how things are different for me now." Like, if there is that ability to be really honest, and not holding so tightly to the facade of perfection that none of us maintain, if it becomes impossible for you to hold yourself to a standard that can't ever be achieved, because you can't escape your past, could that actually be a good thing for society? I think it could be, but I think it's up to us to make it that way. It could go either way.

Kaykay Brady: 18:44

Yeah. And I think, you know, we're not digital natives like the kids are now, right? They were born into this technology. So it makes sense to me that they're the ones that are going to have to take stock of this and say...

Brooke Suchomel: 18:57

It's not up to us to figure it out.

Kaykay Brady: 18:58

Yeah, like we can't figure it out. Because we didn't grow up fluently speaking the language. We're kind of like digital immigrants. But the digital natives, they're the ones who are going to have to look at this and say, "Yes, this works for us." "This is horseshit." "This has got to change." And I think there's got to be a sort of point of reconciliation, because you can see the way that kids' mental health is struggling so much with the digital world. I mean, it's stunning, all the data supporting it. Both seeing kids one on one, and seeing how it's affecting them, and then just all the data you read, supporting the rates of depression, anxiety, and suicidality that are growing in relation to you, when kids got smartphones. There's got to be a change point, because I don't think human beings can suffer this much, for this long, without there being some change somehow.

Brooke Suchomel: 19:53

Even if we're not the ones who are perhaps best positioned to solve the problem, perhaps we're the ones who can at least try to keep it from getting worse for people. Let's not continue to exacerbate the problem.

Kaykay Brady: 20:04

Well, and I think also we hold a unique space in that because we're digital immigrants, we see this culture as a culture, versus just the soup that we swim in. Because we remember a time before the internet culture, and so like as a therapist, you know, this always feels like a place I can help too, just giving some perspective of like, "You know, it wasn't always like this, and there is something else." Because that's the thing, kids that are so wrapped up in technology, it's like they don't know what it means to play, or have fun, or to not be stressed out every second of every day thinking that the world is on fire, knowing that the world is on fire, knowing that everything sucks, like, they just have no freedom from that. But that's a state of mind that you can still attain even with everything going on. And you can't maintain your mental health long term unless you have play, unless you have fun, unless you have relief sometimes. And so because you and I grew up in a time where that's a lot of what we had, that's also something you can share with them, and they get it.

Brooke Suchomel: 21:09

As you're talking that just made me think about the fact that like, even though in this series, we don't see the babysitters living in that virtual world all the time, in the sense that right at the beginning we have a sense that this is going to be a little different in that we hear Mary Anne say, "Isn't it against the law for kids to be on Instagram?" And you know, Claudia saying, "Social media rots your brain." Kristy, she's reading a physical copy of Sun Tzu. We're not even talking a Kindle, she's got a physical copy of the book. And also Janine being like, "your analog version of advertising," so we see them living in a world that is perhaps more analogous to the world of the books. We know that they live in a world with social media and smartphones, but Mary Anne gets hers taken away, and she's got her Cricket phone. So they're set off a little different. But you're talking about how they don't even get a respite and how you need to play, we see Stacey is not able to participate in so many of the things in the series because her mom is like, so focused on addressing her, or not even addressing but like dressing her, to sort of cover this up and make her look and feel normal. She's not able to play, she's not able to participate in the "let's wear sandwich boards and clang a cowbell," you know?

Kaykay Brady: 22:36

That is play. Everyone should do that once a day. This is what I prescribe for any mental health challenges. Put on a sandwich board, grab yourself a cowbell, start clanging that fucker.

Brooke Suchomel: 22:47

Just make sure that your sandwich board does not say "Younger is better," because that's gonna end really poorly for you. Particularly if you're clanging a cowbell while you do it. It's not good.

Kaykay Brady: 22:57

Nope. Yeah, you're totally right. You're totally right.

Brooke Suchomel: 23:01

It's like Stacey's mom, in a way, is also that sort of looming presence that social media plays. Lke, diabetes and Stacey's mom's reaction to it is analogous to the social media haunting that Stacey experiences.

Kaykay Brady: 23:18

Yeah. And it also makes a lot of sense that, I think I was talking about last time that Stacey seems like a realtor. She seems pretty serious. And that is in line with maybe someone who's not being allowed to be a kid and play and be in the moment so much.

Brooke Suchomel: 23:33

Definitely. When we talked in our episode about the book, The Truth About Stacey, so the third episode of this podcast, we said what they were fighting was to stay true to themselves, both on their club mission and practices, which I think was not so much of an issue in this particular TV show. Cuz in the book, it was very much Kristy being like, "We're going to go against our original principles and basically race to the bottom just to maintain market share." And you don't see that happen. You see her idea for the Kid Kit comes up.

Kaykay Brady: 24:11

She reads The Art of War.

Brooke Suchomel: 24:13

She reads The Art of War.

Kaykay Brady: 24:15

And lectures on portions of it.

Brooke Suchomel: 24:17

Yeah. And she does say, when they are doing their little sandwich board cowbell clanging, "Special rates for our best customers," you know. But that's it. And then also staying true to themselves with how Stacey confronts Laine. So that's a whole other big plot in the book that isn't there. But we said that the tool that they use to fight that is by continually revisiting and reinforcing their values, and really being honest. And we see that word "honest" come up at the end of the TV show, where Stacey's narrative, when she's talking about how they address things with the Baby-sitters Agency, was, "When they went low, we went honest." So there does seem to be a through line there. But what did you have for what were they fighting in the show, and what tool did they use to win?

Kaykay Brady: 25:11

Yeah, like you said, there was less of sort of losing themselves and their values. It seemed to me more like they were fighting unfettered capitalism, you know, with the Baby-sitters Agency. And also, I thought that the show got an update in the sense that I felt that they were kind of also fighting ableism and healthism. They didn't get like really explicit about it or anything, but you know, it became more of a teaching moment for the parents. So yeah, those both felt updated. And then in terms of the tool that they used, I would say, similar to last time, communication. You know, like you're really seeing throughout all these episodes, the way that communication is sort of curing a host of ills, and that's part of honesty, right, is transparency and communication. And it's so funny that this is winding up being the tool in many of these episodes, when it's the tool that we really saw missing in a lot of regards in the book.

Brooke Suchomel: 26:14

Particularly with communication with adults, is that what you're thinking of?

Kaykay Brady: 26:18

Yeah. And it makes sense. Because you see this as a therapist all the time. There's only so much that you can do providing therapy to a child, because the child is in a context that they do not control. So almost all circumstances, if you have a child that's struggling with something or has a behavioral issue, it's a contextual problem. And you can't solve it just by quote unquote, "fixing the child," you have to step in and deal with the situation that's creating the circumstances under which the child is suffering, because the child doesn't control their own life. And same with this series, right? I mean, it's such an update, because that is the truth of it. And even the adults, you know, depending on who the adult is, they don't control everything, but they have a lot more power than the kid.

Brooke Suchomel: 27:04

You're right, the kid's environment is completely outside of their control. Like, if they don't like the school that they go to? Tough. If they don't like the neighborhood that they live in? Tough! There's nothing that they can do. Whereas an adult theoretically has greater agency and the ability to control their immediate environment. But again, that is, theoretically.

Kaykay Brady: 27:28

Yeah, it depends on the adult. How marginalized is that adult?

Brooke Suchomel: 27:31

Exactly. Even as adults, like, the structures that we live within, a lot of that is out of our control, too. People now are starting to become a bit more cognizant of the role that structures, we like to think that once we are 18 years old, we have full control over our lives and everything that happens to it. And I think now we're starting to see where you're very similar to a child in a lot of ways. You could maybe change your address and change your job, but you can't change the social constructs and political and economic and environmental systems that have been established that you're working within.

Kaykay Brady: 28:15

Yeah, it's really well put. And the other thing to think about is the system, the family system, which is also another dynamic at play, and everybody contributes to that system. But like, the kid can't really change that system. Really, the change has to come from the adults, because they have more cognitive ability, they hopefully have more ability to emotionally regulate. If they don't, you have to teach them. But the system too, is also part of it. This outside structures of the family and the internal family systems.

Brooke Suchomel: 28:47

That's a good point. Man, my brain is like, right now, trying to think about like, "Oh, and then it's this, and then it's this..."

Kaykay Brady: 28:53

We're solving the world right now, just from Episode Three of Netflix Baby-sitters Club. Who fucking knew? But yeah, like, you know, bringing it back to the series, you have much more functional family systems in the Netflix series. All of the families.

Brooke Suchomel: 29:11

Because they're talking.

Kaykay Brady: 29:12

Correct, yes.

Brooke Suchomel: 29:14

How key that is, and how much that wasn't a thing when we were growing up.

Kaykay Brady: 29:19

It really was not.

Brooke Suchomel: 29:21

I think a lot of us are still dealing with the ramifications of that, and the generational divides between being open and honest, and having these conversations and not keeping your feelings and emotions all bottled up and having shame about them. Like as Mary Anne says, you know, if you bring your nightmares into the daylight, like an It clown...

Kaykay Brady: 29:41

They lose their power.

Brooke Suchomel: 29:42

They lose their power. And so for me, I that's where I sort of landed, was that the thing that they were fighting was shame. You can tell like, Stacey's mom is ashamed.

Kaykay Brady: 29:55

Yeah, great point.

Brooke Suchomel: 29:56

Whether she is going to admit it or not, but it's like, "We need to get you a jacket." That's why Stacey's always wearing those jackets. "We need to get you a jacket that covers up your insulin pump." And then the shame that Stacey feels for her diabetes, where in the series, she still hasn't told her friends. She hasn't even had her friends over to her house. She's not able to get closer to her friends, because she's ashamed of her diabetes and doesn't want them to know. Because she thinks that she might lose her friends, just like she did when she went into insulin shock, and that became like a viral video in New York.

Kaykay Brady: 30:33

Her most humiliating moment of her life.

Brooke Suchomel: 30:35

And then that comes into the light in a way that was probably the most horrific way that she could imagine. But ultimately they're like, "Look. This is what it was. I'm not gonna be ashamed of this, I'm gonna say what happened. So now you all know what happened. But rather than let you spin this narrative in your head about what happened and the danger that I would be putting your children in if I were to watch them, like, you're spinning out a story that actually isn't real. Let me tell you what happened. We're going to have an expert who's here." Dr. Johanssen is an endocrinologist in this.

Kaykay Brady: 31:08

Yeah, she can speak to seeing Stacey manage her symptoms and stuff like that.

Brooke Suchomel: 31:13

Yeah. And so she addresses that with the other adults in the room, which I think is also a good thing. Stacey could say something, but like, are the adults really gonna listen? She's got an expert backing her up.

Kaykay Brady: 31:25

Yeah, she needs someone with more power and sway to assuage their fears.

Brooke Suchomel: 31:30

Totally. So it's being transparent. It's that transparency that is the tool. And that even gets carried through, again, they make really smart decisions with clothing, as we talked about in our last episode with how Claudia uses clothing to help embody and actualize the kind of person that she wants to be, and we see Stacey taking a step in that direction too with how she blings out her insulin pump at the end and she wears it on the outside.

Kaykay Brady: 31:59

She's gonna get a Gucci fucking fanny pack! I was getting really excited.

Brooke Suchomel: 32:04

That's one thing where I am like, these kids, some of the kids go a little bit like, I'm sorry, Stacey's sweatshirt that she wears with the eyes on it in the very first episode?

Kaykay Brady: 32:14

Which is the same sweatshirt that David wears.

Brooke Suchomel: 32:16

That David Rose wears in Schitt's Creek. $540.

Kaykay Brady: 32:19

I was gonna say. All of his sweaters are ridiculous.

Brooke Suchomel: 32:23

Yeah. So she's like, "No, I'm going to wear this. I'm going to be transparent," even with the clothing. I thought it was interesting how, this was another touch, she's wearing sheer sleeves. She's got these big poofy sleeves, you can even see through her sleeves. Whereas previously, she's always wearing a leather jacket.

Kaykay Brady: 32:42

Oh, you're blowing my mind, Brooke. I'm changing my answer. I now share your answer. "Shame does not survive the light of day," right? This is like a phrase that we use in mental health.

Brooke Suchomel: 32:53

That's really good.

Kaykay Brady: 32:54

And you're just giving such a perfect example of it. You keep the shame in the dark, it festers. It needs that sort of sunlight of transparency and communication to eradicate it.

Brooke Suchomel: 33:06

Totally. And I can say this from my own personal experience, when you drop the ego that is like, "You've got to be perfect, and you can't let anybody see your flaws, and you have to hold tight to being perfect." And you're just like, "I'm going to tell you about all the times I fucked up," not that you have to discuss every private thing. But if something comes up, if you just own it and you're like, "Yeah, that happened. And this is what I learned from it." It's so liberating. You feel literally physically lighter.

Kaykay Brady: 33:35

Well, and also you become a sort of shining light for other people. Because everybody is sort of waging their own personal shame battles for whatever they were told when they were young, that they were too this or not enough that or whatever messages they got. So people admire nothing more than when someone can actually live this and show this. It makes them feel safe. It makes them look up to people like that. So it's not only liberating yourself, but you're sort of contributing to the liberation of the people that you love.

Brooke Suchomel: 34:08

Totally. That's something that I hope that we can encourage people to do.

Kaykay Brady: 34:12

Yeah, fuck the shame!

Brooke Suchomel: 34:14

Fuck the shame!

Kaykay Brady: 34:15

Fuck the shame! You don't need that noise!

Brooke Suchomel: 34:18

No. And holding on to it only leads to more decisions that cause, it just, shame has compounded interest.

Kaykay Brady: 34:24

Yeah, it snowballs.

Brooke Suchomel: 34:25

Right, the longer that you hold on to it, the worse you feel about it and the more that it eats at you. Just let that shit go.

Kaykay Brady: 34:31

Let that shit go!

Brooke Suchomel: 34:32

Bling out your fucking insulin pump and wear some sheer puffy sleeves, because that was a fierce shirt. I'm gonna look that up next.

Kaykay Brady: 34:40

It also makes me think of Claudia doing the menstruation sculpture. That is also a perfect little metaphor of shame too, because it's something that women have traditionally been told to be extremely shameful about. It's now literally out in the open, literally being celebrated. Fuck yeah!

Brooke Suchomel: 35:00

Totally. It's not like in Claudia and the Phantom Phone Calls, the book, where she spills red jello into her lap in front of her crush and is totally humiliated. She's like, look at my red jello.

Kaykay Brady: 35:14

She's like, "This is a sculpture. I'm gonna win a fucking prize! Take that."

Brooke Suchomel: 35:19

I love it. So I've been having a lot of fun, too, picking up cues on how the writers made some accommodations and sort of changed things up a little bit to tee up the next episode.

Kaykay Brady: 35:32

Ooh! Do tell.

Brooke Suchomel: 35:33

So the next episode is Mary Anne Saves the Day. And we see the conversation, that "what time were you born" conversation, right? That actually comes up really early in the book, and it comes up at the end of the TV show version of it, where they all walk over to meet Jamie Newton's new little sister Lucy. And fortunately Kristy's mom goes with them, so we have an adult. We have an adult chaperone! And I like how they make it clear that Kristy's mom and Jamie Newton's mom are friends.

Kaykay Brady: 36:10

That makes sense.

Brooke Suchomel: 36:11

They're building those networks, so you get to understand how these other adults sort of come into their lives. But they are talking as they're walking, talking about what time they were born, and Mary Anne mentions that she doesn't know. And that's when Kristy's mom says, "Oh, you should ask Mimi. Mimi and your mom were really good friends." And Mary Anne doesn't know that.

Kaykay Brady: 36:35

I saw that. I saw that, it's very interesting.

Brooke Suchomel: 36:38

So you get even more of a cue of how isolated Mary Anne has been from her history. That comes out just a couple of minutes from the end of this episode, and so that seems to be leading us into the next episode, which is Mary Anne Saves the Day. The new humorous Mary Anne with a bigger personality.

Kaykay Brady: 36:59

Yeah, she's almost like deadpan now. You know, she's got a really good sort of deadpan straight man thing happening.

Brooke Suchomel: 37:04

Yeah, it's great. And so I'm excited to see how that comes to light and how our view of Mary Anne continues to evolve when we get her front and center in the next episode, saving the day. I can't wait to discuss that with you next time.

Kaykay Brady: 37:18

I know, me too!

Brooke Suchomel: 37:20

But until then...

Kaykay Brady: 37:22

Just keep sittin'! [THEME] Put on a sandwich board, grab yourself a cowbell, start clanging that fucker.