Transcript - BSFC Netflix #4: Mary Anne Saves the Day

Brooke Suchomel: 0:18

Welcome to the Baby-sitters Fight Club, where the first rule is, you don't talk about Fight Club. Instead you talk about the battles fought and lessons learned in the Baby-sitters Club series of books by Ann M. Martin and the corresponding television show on

Kaykay Brady: 0:32

[makes airhorn sound effect noise]

Brooke Suchomel: 0:36

I know, I need to get my keytar programmed with some awesome sound effects.

Kaykay Brady: 0:40

Maybe just like quotes from the Netflix series. Press a button, "It's menstruation."

Brooke Suchomel: 0:45

I would press that button all the time.

Kaykay Brady: 0:47

You're just like, on BART. You got your keytar and like a little speaker on BART, and you just press on that button. People are like, oh, Lord.

Brooke Suchomel: 0:57

Goals. Something to look forward to. I'm Brooke Suchomel, an editor who's revisiting these books after 30 years.

Kaykay Brady: 1:04

And I'm Kaykay Brady. I'm a therapist, and I'm new to the books, new to the series.

Brooke Suchomel: 1:09

And in this episode, we are discussing Episode Four of the Netflix series, Mary Anne Saves the Day. And the Netflix description of this episode is quote, "After dealing with a major dad dilemma, Mary Anne makes a dynamic new friend. Later, a medical emergency puts her caretaking skills to the test." End quote. It was so freaking hard for me not to text you numerous times while watching this.

Kaykay Brady: 1:39

Same! And even thinking, Oh, what am I gonna say? I'm bursting. I'm bursting! I'm bursting at the seams!

Brooke Suchomel: 1:45

So like, what's, what's coming up? What's the first thing that you say? Let's find out.

Kaykay Brady: 1:48

I mean, it's just flashes in my mind. Dawn. She's so fucking cool. Way cooler than even in the books. Bailey. Adorable little trans kid, yes! Morbidda Destiny is basically the character that we thought she was. I mean, she's not a lesbian, at least that we know. We don't know that yet. She's hosting the New Moon Share-amony so I think there's a possibility there. I was shitting my pants like, whoever wrote this is so on our brainwave. I can't talk, I'm so excited! So, Morbidda, so amazing. Just a crystal loving New Yorker. She's got like an amazing New York accent. She's crunchy.

Brooke Suchomel: 2:37

They grew up there, because it's Dawn's aunt. So in the Netflix world, Morbidda Destiny is not this...

Kaykay Brady: 2:45

Old patrician creepy witch white lady.

Brooke Suchomel: 2:49

Right, who cackles to herself while she makes frozen lemonade to hand out to children. This Morbidda Destiny is way more cool. She practices light shamanism.

Kaykay Brady: 3:03

The light shamanism.

Brooke Suchomel: 3:06

She's Dawn's Aunt Esme, and at one point says, "Gather around the ceremonial stump, moon sisters."

Kaykay Brady: 3:13

I mean, I was waiting for them to start moon painting, but it did not happen. Do you know what moon painting is?

Brooke Suchomel: 3:18

I do know what moon painting is.

Kaykay Brady: 3:20

All right, young listeners, look it up. We won't tell you. Well, actually the young listeners probably know. Old people, look it up.

Brooke Suchomel: 3:26

Should we explain, since we're on the theme of menstruation?

Kaykay Brady: 3:30

Sure. I can't wait to hear how you describe it.

Brooke Suchomel: 3:32

Isn't it just painting with your menstrual blood? "Vaginal menstrual blood." Yeah. Have you moon painted? No. Have you?

Kaykay Brady: 3:43

No, but my partner has moon painted multiple times.

Brooke Suchomel: 3:47

I can see that.

Kaykay Brady: 3:48

She's definitely, you know, light shamanism adjacent.

Brooke Suchomel: 3:52

Right. She's much more in touch with that side of femininity in a way I'm simply too steeped in Midwesternism, as much...

Kaykay Brady: 4:03

Yeah, I'm way too close to the immigrant experience to be painting with my menstrual blood. This is how I felt the first time I went to a lesbian party and there was like dumpster diving cheese. And someone had to explain to me, somebody was like, "Oh, yeah, this is like a dumpster score." And I was like, "What? You got this cheese in the trash?" And I could not let it pass my lips. I just, my Grandmother Brady was in my mind, just talking to me.

Brooke Suchomel: 4:34

And what did she say?

Kaykay Brady: 4:35

What did she say? I mean, she just rolled her eyes, turned around, and walked out of the party. That's what she did. She said nothing.

Brooke Suchomel: 4:43

She shunned you.

Kaykay Brady: 4:45

She shunned me! So I stayed at the party, but I couldn't eat the dumpster cheese. Anyway, the first time I heard about moon painting, it was a little dumpster cheese for me.

Brooke Suchomel: 4:54

I wish I could be the dumpster cheese eating moon painter. Snaps, just as the moon sisters gave snaps, snaps to...

Kaykay Brady: 5:07

I loved the snaps. I loved the crystals. All of it was ringing true.

Brooke Suchomel: 5:11

Yeah. So snaps to the moon painters and the dumpster cheese eaters who might be listening. You do you.

Kaykay Brady: 5:18

"Snaps to the moon painters!" T shirt.

Brooke Suchomel: 5:21

Oh, man.

Kaykay Brady: 5:23

All right, so I gave my brain flash of what was popping into my mind. You go.

Brooke Suchomel: 5:29

I was so excited at the interpretation of Dawn. Because you know my affinity for Dawn.

Kaykay Brady: 5:35

You love Dawn. I was so curious, like, what is Brooke gonna say about this Dawn?

Brooke Suchomel: 5:39

Everything about this episode, so both the interpretation of Dawn, like taking her from, in the book, this stereotype of what it was to be a quote unquote, "California girl" in the 80s, which was very, like Sweet Valley High. Where, you know, in the book, it's like, Dawn, it's all about how her hair is so blonde, it's almost white, and her eyes are ice blue. And you know, all of this, like she is this prototype of what Hollywood represented California to be, that is not reflective of what California actually is. It really isn't. And I think that the Dawn that we see is much more reflective of what California is, although it's also poking fun at stereotypes about what California is.

Kaykay Brady: 6:34

Yeah, but very lightly. Like the food, for example.

Brooke Suchomel: 6:38

It's not a mocking. It's a wink and a nod.

Kaykay Brady: 6:42

Exactly. Like the food for example, you know, in the book, the food can be a little overbearing, how she's just constantly talking about it. In the TV show, they deal with it really lightly. She has a salad and she has a...

Brooke Suchomel: 6:55

Like a green juice.

Kaykay Brady: 6:55

Like a protein shake, yeah, or a green juice. And she just laughs and says, "Haha, we do eat like this in California." But you know, she's not lecturing about it. It's just a lot lighter of a touch.

Brooke Suchomel: 7:05

Yeah, she's not proselytizing, but you see that she has a bento box that she's carrying her salad in. So reusable. You know, she's drinking her green juice from a glass, like, made it at home and has it in a reusable glass bottle.

Kaykay Brady: 7:23

Yeah, it kind of reminds me of, you remember we had that New York conversation where we thought Stacey is a little bit like some sort of stereotype of wealthy white, New York. And there's also this whole other New York that doesn't get represented. Reminds me of what you're saying about Dawn being a great representation of, you know, like a huge portion of California.

Brooke Suchomel: 7:43

Right. And I don't think we even mentioned it, she's Latina, to that point, too. She's not the blond hair blue eyes character that you see in the book. She is a cool Latina with like, I love that she's wearing Vans. That's very California.

Kaykay Brady: 8:00

She got cool hair. She's wearing Vans. It's kind of this like effortless, cool style, which is very California. Not dressed up, but you know, thoughtful.

Brooke Suchomel: 8:10

Yeah, she has that same emotional intelligence. So like, in the book, in my view, Dawn is cast as the most emotionally intelligent character. And we know that she's emotionally intelligent and mature and also like, quote, unquote, "a hippie" because basically she talks about her feelings and she recycles. In the 80s, that was like, Whoa, you are advanced, right?

Kaykay Brady: 8:36

Oh, sure.

Brooke Suchomel: 8:37

And here, it's way further than that.

Kaykay Brady: 8:40

Light shamanism.

Brooke Suchomel: 8:41

Light shamanism, totally normal, feels right at ease there. Within like the first two minutes of talking to Mary Anne at lunch, she's like, "Yeah, my parents finally got divorced. My dad's gay. We've known that for a long time, but we were stuck in the cycle of codependency. My mom needed to come back to where she grew up for the healing process, and she doesn't know how to work a washing machine, so I couldn't leave her." So very transparent with the things that we discussed in the various Dawn books over time, like, this is a codependent family situation. And she's just like, "We're in a codependent family situation." Like, she knows and is not ashamed of it and talks about it, and that sort of takes the air out. These are things that could be heavy if held in and not discussed. You know, and we said this in our last episode, by bringing those things to light, you remove their power to control you. So I thought it was really cool how it doesn't take a few episodes of getting to know Dawn to see that that's who she is. It's just like, boom, right there.

Kaykay Brady: 9:45

Oh, yeah. And in fact, the whole arc of the episode hinges on Dawn's conversation with Mary Anne. In this episode, basically they have a fight because Mary Anne's dad sends her some business, and the woman insists that Mary Anne take the babysitting business, and then all of the babysitters are mad at her. And then they they get mad at her for not being able to say no to this woman. They really get down on her and they're like, "Why can't you stand up for yourself? You're such a pushover, blah blah blah," which is so funny because it's like, taking away someone's agency by screaming at them that they need to have agency.

Brooke Suchomel: 10:28

Did you take it as them screaming at her?

Kaykay Brady: 10:31

Maybe not screaming at her, but definitely taking away her agency by saying to her, "You need to do this, and this is how you need to feel about it." And Dawn takes the opposite tack. So Mary Anne comes to Dawn and expects Dawn to do the same thing and say, "You're a pushover, you're this, you're that." But instead Dawn sort of hangs back and says, "What do you think about yourself?" And Dawn has nothing to say, no judgments, and gives Mary Anne the space to find her own agency and her own voice.

Brooke Suchomel: 11:03

So you're talking about the conversation when Mary Anne basically has the cake at a TGI Fridays moment, and runs off after she is called up to the moon circle, and it's said to her, "Bare your soul. Let us in."

Kaykay Brady: 11:18

She's like, "Nope, bye!"

Brooke Suchomel: 11:20

And she runs off. So you're talking about the conversation that they have...

Kaykay Brady: 11:22

Exactly. To me, those conversations are mirror images of each other, and the whole arc of the show hinges on that second conversation. That's the moment that I see Mary Anne finding her voice and finding her own agency, and so, to you point, it's sort of like Dawn' emotional intelligence, and th

Brooke Suchomel: 11:37

Yeah. And I think it's particularly ways that she's been practicing a more stereotypically Western p rspective on self actualiza ion really comes to the foref ont and changes the main char cter profoundly in this epis de. interesting when you look at it as that comes from being in a very female centered environment. You know, at home, Mary Anne, it's her and her dad. We'll have to talk about the portrayal of Mary Anne's dad in this episode versus the portrayal of him in the books. There's so many key differences.

Kaykay Brady: 12:20

There's key differences, yeah.

Brooke Suchomel: 12:21

Very key decisions that the writers made. In the book, the Baby-sitters Club gets in a fight, Mary Anne meets Dawn and their friendship starts to grow, and then Mary Anne takes a new sitting charge to the hospital. That's the arc of the book. And so in that way, you can say, Well, that seems really close to what happens in the TV show, too. There are so many key differences in how those plot points are portrayed. These are deliberate decisions, and they were communicating a message in the changes that they made. And so I think it's really interesting if you just look at like, Mary Anne, in her home environment, her and her dad, there is a failure to communicate there. And then when she is put in this brand new multi generational female dominated environment, actually female exclusive environment, that's all about communication. Just this huge pendulum swing.

Kaykay Brady: 13:23

Talking stick. Crystal talking stick. Now that's communication.

Brooke Suchomel: 13:28

Right. "Bare your soul. Let us in." Versus Mary Anne's dad earlier in the episode saying, "Is there something you'd like to discuss with me?"

Kaykay Brady: 13:39

In other words, please don't discuss with me.

Brooke Suchomel: 13:42

Those are two very different approaches to asking somebody to talk with you.

Kaykay Brady: 13:46

Yeah. And it definitely shows you their level of comfort with talking. And that's so important for kids to be surrounded by people who feel profoundly comfortable talking and being in uncomfortable places. And you get in Mary Anne's dad, somebody that hasn't been taught to do that and can't do that, and the consequences of that. And then you get in Dawn's multi generational family, the other example of that, and the power of that, and the really good things that that could produce for people. Their communication is so bad, by the way, that at the end, Mary Anne says, "Oh, I want to start changing my clothes," and her dad's like, "Okay." So, in other words, the communication is so, this was brilliant. This was so brilliant...

Brooke Suchomel: 14:34

Misinterpretation.

Kaykay Brady: 14:35

Yes. Total misinterpretation, that she was just assuming she couldn't change her clothes, she couldn't change her hair. And unlike the book, where the dad is policing this, in the TV show, he's not policing it. She's just assuming he's policing it.

Brooke Suchomel: 14:48

That was such a key distinction, I think.

Kaykay Brady: 14:51

Brilliant.

Brooke Suchomel: 14:52

Because it really humanizes her dad. You know, we've only seen her dad so far as the person who was like, "You're grounded. You're home 20 minutes late. Here's your Cricket phone now." Like, no conversation, right? So the portrayal of Mary Anne's dad that we've seen to this point is very much like, he could be the controlling, domineering figure of the book, which is going to be pretty hard to watch unfold on TV, especially now. In the TV show, you see him cooking dinner. In the book, Mary Anne is the one that has to make dinner. She has to be dressed up for the occasion, and sit and listen to her dad talk about the cases that he's trying as a lawyer. Whereas in the TV show, you get not so much that Mary Anne's dad is just this cold figure who exists really to control her life and insists on controlling her life. Instead, you get a guy who is just, he's stiff. He's unpracticed with communication.

Kaykay Brady: 16:03

And even he has a vulnerable moment where he says, "I just put your hair in braids because it's all I know how to do." And he looks very sad and vulnerable in that moment. And then you think, Okay, this is a white man who is also raising a biracial kid. And, you know, in what ways does he feel that he's failing in that regard?

Brooke Suchomel: 16:20

Right. I wonder if we'll get an exploration of this later on, how isolating it must feel to Mary Anne to not have, at least that we see in this show so far, to not have other black female role models, or, you know, black role models in general to help her navigate the world as a biracial woman. She just has her white dad who is ill equipped to help her with that. There's ripe potential there. We know that Mallory and Jessi do come in later as characters. Will Mary Anne and Jessi have conversations about this? Not that the burden of that should be on Mary Anne and Jessi to have it, but it does open up doors for honest conversations that we don't necessarily see taking place in the books, that having Mary Anne as a biracial character being raised by a single white male parent, there'd be a lot of interesting things to explore there. So yeah, in the book, it's really the struggle is Mary Anne's dad is this controlling figure. And in the TV show, they make it Mary Anne's dad, just, they have a failure to communicate. And it goes both ways, too. Because in the book, we see Mary Anne being like, "I don't want to wear these clothes anymore." Mary Anne actually does express herself to her dad, and her dad is just like, "Go to your room." And then they come along toward the end, but his initial reaction, like, she does try, she makes efforts, and she's shot down in the book. We don't see that happen here. We see her finally like expressing herself, and her dad's like, "Okay." Which gives you a sense of, okay, there's some hope here. As opposed to like, people watching this maybe seeing somebody trying to advocate for themselves and being shot down, and interpreting that as like, it's not worth it. You see somebody finally advocating for themselves and getting what they want.

Kaykay Brady: 18:10

Yeah, it's a nice message. It's a better message to send. And it's sort of the message of, I don't know, I was thinking about the way that it says something like, the keys to your freedom have been with you all along, you know, that it's all kind of within you. And to learn the language, to speak it, to speak who you are, to speak your identity, speak your truth and your needs, allows you to get those keys to your freedom. It is a really cool message. And the book has more of a hopeless quality. Maybe part of that is just like a show needs to be more uplifting or pat or something. But it's real fun. It's real fun to watch.

Brooke Suchomel: 18:54

And I think the constraints of time, too. In the book series, we've got 131 books, plus how many Super Specials and spin offs etc, to watch the evolution of Mary Anne. And here we have a 10 episode TV show. We've got less than five hours to get this evolution, and so it's sped up. But it is cool to see not just the decisions that they made for the sake of, We're now changing the format, but also the decisions that they made in the terms of, We now live in a different culture. So let's update what's appropriate for the culture. And I thought part of that that was really interesting was the update that was made to the fight that kicks it off. It's a very different fight. Very different than what you get in the book. In the book, it's actually Kristy taking the job for the Newtons. I can't remember who gets mad at Kristy, but somebody gets mad at Kristy for that.

Kaykay Brady: 19:55

Call her a job hog.

Brooke Suchomel: 19:55

And then it's put on Claudia, like, "Claudia, you're a job hog, you've done this too." There's a lot of sniping back and forth.

Kaykay Brady: 20:03

Yeah, it's kind of everybody turns on each other.

Brooke Suchomel: 20:04

Everybody turns on each other, and Mary Anne, it doesn't end with Mary Anne like, "I'm so sorry." Mary Anne burns it to the fucking ground in the book. Mary Anne turns on each and every girl and just shreds them. She calls Stacey a conceited snob with dumb diabetes. Mary Anne is hostile as fuck in the book.

Kaykay Brady: 20:30

Right, I remember this.

Brooke Suchomel: 20:32

So that's why they fight. And so then it's just like, they've been fighting amongst themselves. They're not talking to each other. Like, Stacey and Claudia, they're sitting at the same table, but at other ends of the table, sticking their tongues out at each other. Everybody's fighting. As opposed to, in the TV show, it's the girls telling her to advocate for herself, as opposed to "You're a cry baby, why are you such a baby?" And Mary Anne just keeps on saying, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry." And you can tell they're frustrated, they're just like, "No, we want you to stand up for yourself," as opposed to, "Why are you such a baby?"

Kaykay Brady: 21:08

It's different, totally different. I thought it was so brilliant, because it's so tempting when someone is lacking agency to tell them that they need to get agency. It's so human. And it has the opposite effect of what you think it's going to do. I mean, as therapists we deal with this day in and day out.

Brooke Suchomel: 21:29

Because it makes them feel like they're failing somehow.

Kaykay Brady: 21:32

Yes, and you're taking away their agency even more. So I thought it was so brilliant, because it's exactly what you're saying. They are coming with the best of intentions, and it's not that they're wrong.

Brooke Suchomel: 21:43

It's their methods.

Kaykay Brady: 21:45

It's just that that method's not gonna work. So the book's method is completely useless. "You're a baby, I'm gonna insult you." Now we've got a slightly more functional method, which is, "We want to help you, and here's what's wrong with you." And then you get Dawn's Jedi Master therapist's method of, "Wait a second. In fact, I'm going to give you your agency and your space, and I'm gonna let your feelings have space. Come forward, Mary Anne."

Brooke Suchomel: 22:11

That's a really good point. So as you're talking about that, that brings to mind another thing, which I thought was really interesting about this fight, in that it's not even really a fight. Again, it's all miscommunication. So, just as you were saying, the Baby-sitters Club, they have the best intentions, but perhaps the way that they're communicating those intentions, it's not being received in the way that Mary Anne needs in order for her to receive the message.

Kaykay Brady: 22:36

Exactly. She can't receive it that way.

Brooke Suchomel: 22:38

They're trying to help her. But when she goes to her dad, all of this stuff comes out, which is probably because this is it seems like a very rare occurrence for her dad to say, "Is there something you want to discuss with me?" So all the stuff that comes pouring out of her, none of the things that she says actually happened in that meeting. She said, "Kristy called me unprofessional." Well, that happened two episodes ago, right. "Claudia says I'm a baby." Like, Claudia didn't say that. You think that about yourself. What you're hearing is what you think about yourself, not what is actually being said to you. And then with Stacey, it was just her own insecurity. "Stacey, it's like her parents are forcing her to hang out with me or something." We've only seen Stacey be kind. Mary Anne feels unworthy of Stacey's attention or something. So she is just trying to vent to her dad. Her dad is taking that as "you're being bullied," which is not even what Mary Anne is saying. So there's all of this cycle, just miscommunication after miscommunication after miscommunication.

Kaykay Brady: 23:37

Exactly. It's such a good point. It's like the game of Operator, and the truth of what's being communicated is getting obscured with each person, each retelling, things are getting actually more estranged.

Brooke Suchomel: 23:49

Right. And so that leads to Mary Anne's dad calling the girls' parents, unbeknownst to Mary Anne. Again, miscommunication. Mary Anne says, "Don't do that." He's like, "I'm gonna call Kristy's mom," and she's like, "Don't."

Kaykay Brady: 24:00

And she doesn't ven find out about it till sh goes to school and ever

Brooke Suchomel: 24:03

Right. But the thing that I thought was so good about it was you didn't see them be like, "Fuck you, Mary Anne." They're just like, "Your dad called our parents and said that we're all bullies, and now we're all grounded." Again, none of this happens in the book. And they say to her, "We just need some space," much in the same way as Dawn is like, "I'll give you space," Mary Anne at the end is like, "I need space from the moon circle." The other babysitters, they need some space from Mary Anne. And that's fair.

Kaykay Brady: 24:31

Yeah, and that's a healthy boundary.

Brooke Suchomel: 24:33

Totally. And so you don't see them sniping at each other. Zero foot stopping. Thank God, because this is the book where they...

Kaykay Brady: 24:42

Wait, this is the foot stomping book?

Brooke Suchomel: 24:43

This is the foot stomping book.

Kaykay Brady: 24:44

Oh shit.

Brooke Suchomel: 24:45

This is the foot stomping book, this is the book where they get into fights while they're babysitting together, this is the one where they basically get into throwing wet napkins at each other at Jamie Newton's birthday party. Because they were all enlisted to basically be cater waiters at Jamie Newton's birthday party and then they just start throwing things at each other. None of that happens in this TV show. Thank freaking god.

Kaykay Brady: 25:10

Yeah, good update. I also thought the story you're talking about with the dad when he calls the other parents and says that she's being bullied, it's such a great modern update of the theme from the books, which is parents make things worse. You don't want to communicate with parents because they make things worse. You haven't seen this in the TV show yet, but here we see it with the dad and it feels like a thoroughly modern update, where that might be how a parent could get involved is calling the school, calling parents, and you know, making interpersonal dynamics for the kids and friends worse. So I thought that was a really cool update.

Brooke Suchomel: 25:44

And potentially making the communication between the parent and child worse. Because now it's like, well, what's Mary Anne going to take from that? She actually did open up to her dad, and her dad just blew up her friendships. Do you think she's going to open up to her dad again, if that's the way that it unfolds? Fortunately, we see that she does open up again to him at the end, when he comes to pick her up from the hospital that she has taken Bailey to. But the risk is definitely there, and I think that that's very real. And so a good lesson for parents and kids who might be watching the show to take into consideration.

Kaykay Brady: 26:21

Yeah. The TV show has so many little brilliant moves that show such human propensities. And another propensity that is showing is the human propensity to want to take action when you see struggle and suffering. Like the dad, "Oh, I'm gonna jump in there and call the parents," when in fact, really what Mary Anne needs is she needs someone to hear her. She needs some space. She needs someone to help her step into her own agency and clarify, Who is she and what does she value? It's amazing how, for a 20 minute show, it can get into these really deep like human psychological propensities.

Brooke Suchomel: 27:01

Yeah. And so she gets that from Dawn. Dawn is the one who plays that role for her.

Kaykay Brady: 27:08

Right, and you you make a brilliant point that, you know, it's Dawn that's really taking that from this sort of larger matriarchal circle of care and listening and showing.

Brooke Suchomel: 27:19

That's such a good point. Dawn doesn't live in the patriarchy.

Kaykay Brady: 27:24

You basically said it.

Brooke Suchomel: 27:25

Oh, wow. Okay, so now I'm realizing that like, the patriarchy is the macro environment that Dawn lives in, because it's the macro environment that we all live in. But her micro environment is a matriarchy.

Kaykay Brady: 27:38

Yes.

Brooke Suchomel: 27:39

There's no Jeff. Jeff Schafer doesn't exist in this world.

Kaykay Brady: 27:44

Wow, great point. Where's Jeff?

Brooke Suchomel: 27:46

And Dawn's dad is gay, which everybody apparently in her family has known for a while and hasn't faced. Not to say that because a man is gay that he's not a part of, or participating in, the patriarchy. Not saying that at all, but just that it's a different situation then if you have a heteronormative stereotypical male figurehead, and that male is a heterosexual domineering man, kind of in the way that Mary Anne's dad has been. Obviously, the fact that Dawn is able to talk so openly about codependency indicates that perhaps her family has a better communication style.

Kaykay Brady: 28:26

Well they also made a joke about, "Oh, do you tell this to your therapist?" Dawn's mother made a joke to her along those lines, which is telling you that they're also engaging in mental health or self actualization in a way that you never saw in the books, for example.

Brooke Suchomel: 28:42

Right. So even in, you know, her former home environment with her dad in it, she would have been living in a very different world than your stereotypical patriarchal household. So the fact that that is the character that helps Mary Anne make a breakthrough when she has had no maternal figure in her life for as long as she can remember, barring Mimi. You see her knitting with Mimi at the beginning, and Claudia actually has to come down and tell her "Hey, we're about to start the meeting." You know, you got to go get her from knitting with the 83 year old woman.

Kaykay Brady: 29:19

I love that moment where Mimi's like, "Multicolored yarn!" It was so cute. I was dying.

Brooke Suchomel: 29:25

And Mary Anne, "Oh, how we rage." So we see more of Mary Anne, like we picked up at the last episode, her sense of humor is a good sense of humor. And we see more of that when Dawn comes to sit down with her and she's like, "All my friends are dead."

Kaykay Brady: 29:41

Yeah, it's real deadpan. She's got a great deadpan sense of humor.

Brooke Suchomel: 29:45

Yeah. Dawn's like, "You're funny, but dark." And it's like, you are right!

Kaykay Brady: 29:52

I was gonna say, this is your read of Mary Anne from the jump. They're just going for it.

Brooke Suchomel: 29:57

No wonder Mary Anne calls Kristy in the second episode to be like, "Karen's going through a spooky phase, but she's really fun." Because they're like the two darkest characters in Stoneybrook. They see themselves in each other, I think, a little bit, so I loved that. Again, it felt like this is another indicator that the people interpreting this for Netflix, they have a real deep read of these characters from the books.

Kaykay Brady: 30:25

Speaking of dark, what the fuck's with the Shillaber twins? It looks like the Shining twins, they just left them in water for a little while.

Brooke Suchomel: 30:34

And they're future gym teachers. The Shining twins as gym teachers.

Kaykay Brady: 30:39

And they're eating their salad in unison. I was dying about the Shillaber twins

Brooke Suchomel: 30:43

And Kristy's like, "Ahahahaha, oh, that's so funny. Ahahaha."

Kaykay Brady: 30:46

I know, the Shillaber twins are just staring forward like corpses, and Kristy's like, "Hahahaha!"

Brooke Suchomel: 30:54

And Mary Anne is like, "Okay, Kristy must be really mad at me if she's eating with the Shillaber twins."

Kaykay Brady: 31:00

Yeah, I got a real kick out of those two.

Brooke Suchomel: 31:03

And then obviously the updates that they make to Jenny Prezzioso's character. I will take Bailey Delvecchio over Jenny Prezzioso any day.

Kaykay Brady: 31:14

Oh, I see. So Bailey is replacing Jenny?

Brooke Suchomel: 31:16

Yes.

Kaykay Brady: 31:17

Oh. Oh wow. Yes! They've really done an about face.

Brooke Suchomel: 31:24

And I was thinking, like, the name Bailey? Is that the Jenny of today? It's possible.

Kaykay Brady: 31:32

You mean everyone's named Bailey and it's very typical...

Brooke Suchomel: 31:35

Yeah, back in the 80s, everyone was named Jennifer, Jenny, Jen.

Kaykay Brady: 31:38

Yes.

Brooke Suchomel: 31:39

Like, if you had somebody in your class named Jennifer, you would refer to them as like, "Jennifer S." "Jennifer B."

Kaykay Brady: 31:46

Or you just say their last name.

Brooke Suchomel: 31:48

Yeah, because you would have three or four Jennifers in your class.

Kaykay Brady: 31:51

When I played soccer, I mean, we pretty much called all of each other by our last names because of how many Jennifers, Lindsays, and Lizzes were on the team. You just had to go by last names.

Brooke Suchomel: 32:01

Yeah. Iowa had a lot of Heathers. A lot of Heathers in Iowa, a lot of Tiffanys. Fair amount of Amandas. Emilys, lots of Emilys.

Kaykay Brady: 32:09

A lot of moms were Emily in the East coast.

Brooke Suchomel: 32:11

Oh, okay. Well, see this is where I think you see the names sort of transition westward, perhaps.

Kaykay Brady: 32:16

Ah, right. They flow. They flow west. And they flow from top to bottom socioeconomically, too.

Brooke Suchomel: 32:21

Yeah. No, the mom names were very much like, Sharon. A lot of Sharons, a lot of Pats.

Kaykay Brady: 32:28

Oh, yeah. Plenty of Pats on the East Coast. Are you kidding me? I mean, I was almost a Pat. I was a C section and my mother asked the doctor if he would wait to have me born on Patty's Day. And if I had been born on Patty's Day, I would have been "Patricia." Luckily, thank you, doctor, he said absolutely not.

Brooke Suchomel: 32:46

I just love picturing you as Pat. You couldn't be less of a Pat. You just couldn't. But would you be a Pat if you were named Pat? Is it determinative?

Kaykay Brady: 32:54

Here's the thing. I look exactly like Peppermint Patty. Many people have told me this, and when I object they tell me I'm nuts.

Brooke Suchomel: 33:05

I think they're nuts. I don't think you look like Peppermint Patty. You look like Peppermint Patty when you dress up like Peppermint Patty for Halloween.

Kaykay Brady: 33:13

Because it's an easy laugh.

Brooke Suchomel: 33:14

Right, you're like, "I just woke up and uhh, yeah, I'm Peppermint Patty today."

Kaykay Brady: 33:18

Well, maybe it was, in high school, I basically had that length hair. I was wearing Umbro soccer shorts everyday, Tevas, and a polo shirt. So I probably was doing it to myself, honestly. It's a liberating thought.

Brooke Suchomel: 33:31

People called you "sir." You had this weird little friend that followed you around that called you "sir" all the time? That might have had something to do with it.

Kaykay Brady: 33:42

Fucking amazing.

Brooke Suchomel: 33:43

Oh, man.

Kaykay Brady: 33:43

What the hell were we talking about?

Brooke Suchomel: 33:45

We're talking about Bailey being the new Jenny.

Kaykay Brady: 33:47

Yeah, okay.

Brooke Suchomel: 33:49

Both in the sense of the ubiquity of the name, and also in the character update in the TV show. So in the book, the sitting charge that Mary Anne saves the day of, rushes to the hospital with a fever, is three year old little diva Jenny Prezzioso.

Kaykay Brady: 34:09

Little sentient doll Jenny Prezzioso.

Brooke Suchomel: 34:12

Who is dressed up as a porcelain doll by her mom and isn't really allowed to be a kid and have fun. And, you know, instead of that sort of like, child as an object, we get a sitting charge who is very much seen and embraced for their personhood by the parent. And I thought it was very lovely that Bailey is presented as a trans girl, and it's like, "And what?" You know, we have a story where it's just like, yeah, you know, it's not like we have a very special episode. It's not like the mom sits down with Mary Anne and explains it to her or anything like that.

Kaykay Brady: 34:54

Although there's a little bit of very special episode between Dawn and Mary Anne.

Brooke Suchomel: 34:57

Right, which I think it was really good to have Dawn have that conversation, so to have peers having the conversation. And again, Dawn coming from LA, we know that her dad is gay, and so LGBT rights would have been more of a, she's just more aware of them.

Kaykay Brady: 35:14

Yeah, of course.

Brooke Suchomel: 35:15

And you don't even see Mary Anne asking the question. You just see them having the conversation. That's where the scene cuts in, is with Dawn explaining it. But you don't see the question from Mary Anne, so you don't know whether she said, like, "What does it mean to be trans?" Or you don't know if she's just like, "Oh, this was weird." You don't know how she phrased the question. So whatever the question is that is in the mind of the viewer, Dawn is answering it. Which is really smart writing.

Kaykay Brady: 35:49

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. This is like the viewer's questions, and the writers answering that in a believable and interesting way.

Brooke Suchomel: 36:01

And to present it in the terms of, Did you ever decide to be left handed or right handed? Or have you just known? And if somebody tried to make you change it, if you're right handed and someone's like, "No, you're left handed, you must be left handed," how easy would it be for you to become left handed? And how would you feel about that? It makes sense to me that that is how Dawn understands the issue.

Kaykay Brady: 36:22

Definitely. Yeah, and you make a really good point, because then that also helps the through line of what we were talking about before of, you know, Dawn is really bringing that open matriarchal, gender fluid perspective. That cements the through line, right? That Dawn is the one that's sharing the idea of trans identity with Mary Anne, and that would help Mary Anne discover her own identity as a person who is going to speak up. And I thought it was also so dope that Mary Anne's first ability to be able to speak up is the ability to speak up for someone more marginalized than herself. Which is, so first of all, right on, you know, it's just like, Yay. And then also, it's so true to life. You know, when you're sitting with people, as a therapist, and someone is really stuck and oppressed, that's often where you're going to get the most movement at first, is having people see other people's oppression. Start to begin to speak up for their oppression. It's a different topic, but for example, somebody struggling with their own body image, one exercise you can do is in your mind, you compliment everyone's body that you see. Every single person that you see. And then all of a sudden, you realize, Wow, if I can see other people as valued and beautiful, at whatever their size, whatever their color, you know, maybe I can afford that same kindness to myself. And so this is a perfect example of this, right? She gets to speak up for a trans kid and then find her own voice with her dad.

Brooke Suchomel: 38:01

Yeah.

Kaykay Brady: 38:02

I loved it.

Brooke Suchomel: 38:03

Through the act of advocating for somebody else, that's how she learns how to advocate for herself. In seeing the value of somebody else, that's how she learns to see the value of herself. Again, getting right back to empathy, that theme of empathy, and how empathetic acts can make such a huge impact on your own personal psyche. And the fact that we get to see that that is what makes Mary Anne's dad see her more as an individual, because I think he's used to seeing meek, quiet Mary Anne, and then he comes into the hospital, just as he sees her advocating in the hallways, he gets to overhear what she's saying about Bailey to the medical professionals, and their need to gender Bailey correctly. And he's like, Wow, that reminds me so much of what her mom did, and obviously he loved that about her mom. We learned that Mary Anne's mom was a lawyer and a badass who was very vocal in advocating for the rights of others.

Kaykay Brady: 39:05

Yeah, and maybe we can guess that Mary Anne's mom also had to go through some sort of process of becoming, where she did become a vocal defender of people. I think Mimi says something like, "Your mom wasn't like this overnight," or something like that.

Brooke Suchomel: 39:20

Exactly. I always say, if there's a word on a page, somebody chose to put it there. And given the way that the publishing process goes, if it's extraneous, if it doesn't matter? A good editor, it's going to be removed. And the fact that it stays shows that it's deliberate and intentional. Same thing with the screenplay. You have such a limited time to communicate such huge messages that you get in this particular series, that any word that a character says is deliberate. There are no throwaways. The fact that Mimi said, "Your mom didn't get like that overnight," that calls to mind growth. So I think that's a really good point, that you sort of see that growth carried through. And it's that connection back, she's got all of these little sort of reminders of her mom, which we know that she feels very removed from, and that's a hole in her identity. You know, she's just trying to find out as much, like, it seems like her dad really doesn't talk about her mom.

Kaykay Brady: 40:21

Ever, really. We don't get that sense.

Brooke Suchomel: 40:24

Yeah. And we know that in the book. In the book, it's very clear that her dad, he says grace every night and says, "Please watch over Abigail," and that's it.

Kaykay Brady: 40:34

It's also interesting that the dad, and the medical professionals, Mary Anne speaks up for Bailey, and they immediately accept it. You don't even get a wisp of pushback about that, which feels both maybe like a testament to the strength that Mary Anne is bringing, and the way that she's internalized so completely the messaging that Dawn and the sort of matriarchal perspective has brought to her, and they're sort of immediately seeing the wisdom of this. And they have no conflict at all from the larger culture. The larger culture's like, "Damn! All right, I guess so. Yes, let's go!" Which is a cool arc to see, and very cool that it comes from Mary Anne's voice versus like a parent's voice.

Brooke Suchomel: 41:20

Or even Kristy. Even a character that you know to be very vocal, that you would expect to be the advocate. That might be something that a kid might be watching that and saying, "Well, but that's what Kristy can do." Kristy's the quote unquote, "loud one." Kristy's the one who isn't afraid to piss people off. But to have it be the meek one who's afraid to advocate even for herself, to have her do it, it's like, "Well, if Mary Anne can do it, then so can I." And I thought it was also really nice, this is just a thing to note, that they cast a transgender girl to play the transgender girl. Because I was like, please tell me you didn't mess this up. Let me look this up. And then I was like, yes, phew! But in doing that, I found out that this actress is an activist, particularly in Texas, which is currently...

Kaykay Brady: 42:15

Oh wait, I think I've seen this actress in a video. Did she have like a video series about her transition?

Brooke Suchomel: 42:21

There is a documentary about her, yeah.

Kaykay Brady: 42:22

Okay. Oh, I thought this kid looked familiar.

Brooke Suchomel: 42:24

Did you see? Because I just found out about it and I'm like, now I want to watch it. Did you watch it?

Kaykay Brady: 42:30

Yeah.

Brooke Suchomel: 42:30

What did you, anything that comes to mind?

Kaykay Brady: 42:32

It was a while ago. And I remember, I think the mom says something in the documentary about, you know, she's just always been who she is, and she just kind of came out of the womb that way. And I don't know, I was so struck by the way that a kid could know themselves so well, and so inspired by that. That's what I remember, mostly.

Brooke Suchomel: 42:53

Yeah. So the article that I've read about it, it's on Planet Transgender dot com, said that they grew up in a evangelical Christian, very conservative household. And the actress' mom tried to beat it out of her. Beat her, tried to do forced conversion. And then when she was three years old, the young trans actress that we see here started praying that God would come and take her, because it was just too much pain to be alive. So this mom is trying to like, beat who she is out of her, and the little girl is a toddler praying for God to just come and take her away from this pain. That was the thing that finally woke her mom up. And the process that they have gone through, and then ended up moving from their small community to Austin, getting involved in activism there to try to stand up for the rights of trans kids and trans people in general. So just as we were talking about growth in a more micro environment, and with lower stakes that we see here in this episode, if kids are watching this and then are interested and want to learn more, to know that there is this documentary that lays all of this out, the depths of pain that both trans kids and also their families who have been indoctrinated to see them as bad, as evil, what that does. The way that that oppression just destroys families and individuals.

Kaykay Brady: 44:38

Yeah. And then on the other side, the way that acceptance and celebration opens the family not only to each other, but to new lives, and what an amazing experience the whole family gets.

Brooke Suchomel: 44:52

And to leave that behind, so to be like, I'm going to break free from what I've been told to believe. I'm going to think about not just continuing these patterns that aren't working for me or for my family, that are causing a lot of pain, to be brave enough to break out of that mold, even if that costs you your immediate community. To see, if that's not serving you anymore, if there's something better out there for you, to do it and to advocate for others. I mean, that's what they did. The family now advocates for others. And now this girl, who just a few years ago was in so much pain, not accepted by her family, is now being presented as a shining light for what can happen.

Kaykay Brady: 45:35

And she's in a dope ass show!

Brooke Suchomel: 45:36

She's in a dope ass show and she's wearing some cool princess dresses, having tea parties on TV. I mean, amazing. But I just think it's really cool that not only did they pick an actress who is transgender, so to have that real representation that is so key, but who also is an activist with more material out there. So that if a kid is watching this and is like, "Oh, I want to learn more about Bailey," they can actually watch a whole documentary about Bailey's story to go beyond that. It's good to have that sense of like, yes, it's like, are you right handed or left handed? Now we can take this even further, so you can better connect with her.

Kaykay Brady: 46:15

Yeah. And also for anybody that's interested in the trans experience, acting, casting transactors, there's a great documentary on Netflix called Disclosure. It's basically about trans folks in media and movies and stuff, and they devote a big portion of it talking about the importance of trans actors playing trans actors and representation there. I just highly recommend that documentary as like a tertiary topic to this.

Brooke Suchomel: 46:43

Totally. So Disclosure on Netflix, and then the documentary that features the actress who plays Bailey, whose name is Kai Shappley, is called Trans in America, Texas Strong. So that is available online as well. I was just like dancing the whole time while I was watching this last night. I was just so damn happy and proud that there's content like this available for kids now.

Kaykay Brady: 47:06

I know.

Brooke Suchomel: 47:07

It's life affirming.

Kaykay Brady: 47:09

Very different from when we were young.

Brooke Suchomel: 47:11

Speaking of which, did you have any modern moments?

Kaykay Brady: 47:14

You know, I didn't have any for this.

Brooke Suchomel: 47:17

There's one really good one.

Kaykay Brady: 47:19

Break it down.

Brooke Suchomel: 47:20

Mary Anne's nightmare is a landline phone without caller ID, somebody's calling and asking to speak to her.

Kaykay Brady: 47:29

Was it specifically the landline? Or just anyone's calling to speak to her?

Brooke Suchomel: 47:33

Maybe it's, yeah, I mean, she definitely says a phone without caller ID and she's sitting next to the landline. So perhaps I am transposing that in my mind, but no caller ID, no idea to know who's calling.

Kaykay Brady: 47:46

The point being she doesn't know who's actually calling, it's a mystery.

Brooke Suchomel: 47:49

Right, and they want to talk to her. And that happens. And it's like, that was just phone calls.

Kaykay Brady: 47:55

I was gonna say, good luck on your fucking birthday. You're gonna talk to your grandmother. You're gonna talk to every aunt and uncle that you have in the world. You're going to talk to your dad's best friend. Deal with it.

Brooke Suchomel: 48:06

Wow. You had a different birthday that I did.

Kaykay Brady: 48:09

You didn't have to do that on your birthday?

Brooke Suchomel: 48:11

Talk to my dad's best friend? Absolutely not! Yeah, so I love that. That is like a Gen Z nightmare.

Kaykay Brady: 48:20

That's a great one. Very good one. Oh, I know. I had a minor moment, which was Mary Anne calls Kristy "normcore," which I thought was hilarious.

Brooke Suchomel: 48:31

She rocks the normcore look.

Kaykay Brady: 48:32

She rocks normcore.

Brooke Suchomel: 48:34

Yeah, I liked that. That was good. Yeah, there's more commentary on clothing again. You know, we had Claudia's Clueless jacket,

Kaykay Brady: 48:41

Dude. Okay. Are you talking about the yellow plaid suit?

Brooke Suchomel: 48:43

Yes.

Kaykay Brady: 48:44

Okay, the yellow plaid suit over a T shirt of a greyhound. Oh, shoot. Sorry, I hit the mike.

Brooke Suchomel: 48:52

Kaykay has left the room. She's flailing, she's so excited about the T shirt.

Kaykay Brady: 48:57

It was the Clueless suit. And then it was just a little greyhound face. I would rock that so hard.

Brooke Suchomel: 49:06

Yeah. I wanted Mary Anne's jacket, the purple with the chevron on the back. That's 100% my style. And then of course, Dawn, just overall. So cool.

Kaykay Brady: 49:18

Everything about Dawn.

Brooke Suchomel: 49:19

Everything. And so our next episode is Dawn centric. We get Dawn and the Impossible Three. And I'm going to be very interested to see, first of all, to get to learn more about Dawn. At the end of Mary Anne Saves the Day, the book, Dawn is accepted into the Baby-sitters Club. And we don't see them even meet in this. So we're gonna see the introduction of Dawn to the rest of the Baby-sitters Club in the next episode, and we're also going to see how they deal with the whole Mrs. Barrett situation.

Kaykay Brady: 49:49

Interesting. Oh, I'm so psyched to see this. Dawn, can she get any more perfect?

Brooke Suchomel: 49:54

We'll find out.

Kaykay Brady: 49:55

We'll find out!

Brooke Suchomel: 49:56

Looking forward to finding out in our next episode. But until then...

Kaykay Brady: 50:01

Just keeps sittin'! [THEME] You got this cheese in the trash?!