Transcript - BSFC Netflix #5: Dawn and the Impossible Three

Brooke Suchomel: 0:18

Welcome to the Baby-sitters Fight Club, where the first rule is, you don't talk about Fight Club. Instead you talk about the battles fought and lessons learned in the Baby-sitters Club series of books by Ann M. Martin and the corresponding television show on Netflix. I'm Brooke Suchomel, an editor who's revisiting these books after 30 years.

Kaykay Brady: 0:38

And I'm Kaykay Brady. I'm a therapist and I'm new to the world of this magical shit.

Brooke Suchomel: 0:44

Magical what?

Kaykay Brady: 0:45

Shit. I sort of said it, well, I had a brogue. "Magical shit!" I don't know why I just became my grandmother, but there you go.

Brooke Suchomel: 0:56

I love it when you become your grandmother. We should do an entire episode sometime...

Kaykay Brady: 0:59

As Mary Brady. She'd be like, "I didn't have time to read this fucking book. I was busy. Babysitting is good for children. The older ones take care of the younger ones. You don't get paid for it either."

Brooke Suchomel: 1:16

It's just a definition of babysitting.

Kaykay Brady: 1:18

Just being an older sibling is basically you know, an Irish babysitter.

Brooke Suchomel: 1:22

Right. You get your meals, you get...

Kaykay Brady: 1:24

Room and board.

Brooke Suchomel: 1:24

You get room and board in exchange for your labor. That's the Irish babysitter. That kind of fits with this episode.

Kaykay Brady: 1:33

It's very fitting for everything we're going to discuss in this episode.

Brooke Suchomel: 1:36

Exactly. In this episode, we are discussing episode five of the Netflix series, Dawn and the Impossible Three. And the Netflix description of this episode is quote, "To prove herself to the BSC, Dawn agrees...

Kaykay Brady: 1:50

I thought you were gonna rap like [drops a beat].

Brooke Suchomel: 1:51

"Dawn with a dawn, a bang a bang diggy." Yeah. I'm gonna try this again because I don't know if I'm gonna be able to use that. Let's find out. "To prove herself to the BSC, Dawn agrees to babysit for a family of rowdy kids. Can she keep up with their mischief and mayhem?" End quote. So Kaykay, we were wondering how they were going to approach the Barrett situation, and we got to see how they approach the Barrett situation. What was your take on what you saw in Episode Five?

Kaykay Brady: 2:30

Well, interestingly enough, pretty much Mrs. Barrett is Eve Ensler, kind of? I don't know. Okay, so the basic plot, in case people don't remember, this was the episode where the dad kind of kidnaps the kid, in the book.

Brooke Suchomel: 2:46

We get another view on how they are reinterpreting what you see in the books and being like, oh, wow, what was okay for 80s print children's publishing is probably not okay for 2020 children's television. Because in the book, the dad decides he's going to teach them a lesson about not adhering to custody schedules. And so just goes and is like, I'm just going to grab any kid that I see outside and see if she notices.

Kaykay Brady: 3:15

Commits a crime.

Brooke Suchomel: 3:16

Exactly. And of course, he gets a warning for that. But in the TV show, it's truly like, No, I'm doing my duty as the parent, I'm picking him up for his swimming lesson, right?

Kaykay Brady: 3:28

It's more of just crossed wires, and the mom actually dropping the ball.

Brooke Suchomel: 3:31

Right, the mom just not telling Dawn something. Whereas in the book, it's like, they actually say, was he going to a lesson? And it's made clear, no, he has no lessons. That's not something that would be happening. So they take one of the hopeful scenarios in the book and make that the actual scenario in the TV show.

Kaykay Brady: 3:49

It's probably both what you're saying about what's going to fly in the 80s may not fly now, and also just a 20 minute show. There's only so much drama they can delve into, so it really worked. And it also calls back very nicely to the one of the central plots, which is just basically Mrs. Barrett struggling, and the babysitters having to manage sort of where she is in life right now. It's interesting, I almost feel, and I'm really curious about your take on this, but I almost feel like Mrs. Barrett is less sympathetic in this show than she is in the books.

Brooke Suchomel: 4:23

Agreed.

Kaykay Brady: 4:23

They make her an actor, which I thought was kind of interesting. I was like, I wonder if this is the writers kind of, you know, poking fun at their own industry.

Brooke Suchomel: 4:31

There's someone specifically that they're like, I am going to clown on this person.

Kaykay Brady: 4:37

"This person made my life a living hell, this actor, this drama queen that I worked with, and now you're getting skewered." But yeah, so she's an actor, and you know, there's quite a bit of being very self absorbed and also being manipulative. Whereas in the book, she's more presented as just really over her head and struggling and you know, lots of personal issues.

Brooke Suchomel: 5:01

Yeah, in the book, it seems pretty clear the way that they describe her, she's very focused on her appearance. She's not going out to go on like auditions or anything in the book, she's going out to go apply for some jobs. But they say in the book, it's like temp jobs. Or sometimes will just have Dawn come over so she can just like go to the mall. It seems like she needs an escape from her life. And she doesn't seem to be all that checked in to what's going on at home, you know, the same sort of like, yeah, do whatever with the kids, I don't really care. You see that in the book and in the TV show. But I think you also see a little bit more humanity for her in the book than you do in the TV show. Like I agree, Dawn really kind of becomes like her counselor in a way that's super inappropriate. But also because she becomes her counselor in the book, you see a little bit more of her talking about what's going on in her life, etc. And you don't get that in the TV show.

Kaykay Brady: 6:02

Yeah, so it's harder to empathize, because she's never opening up about her struggles, you just more see the behavior. And some of the manipulation too. And it's interesting, too, because in so many of these episodes, it feels like the lesson or you know, the tool they use in their struggle, in their fight, is communication. But in this episode, it's basically like Dawn can't use communication, because Mrs. Barrett is pretty closed, there's no opening that and it's not Dawn's job, so instead, she uses boundaries. And so this is an interesting episode, where you see sort of the limits of communication and empathy. And you just have to have strong boundaries. And I thought that was cool, too, because that is true as well. Sometimes you just need to say, I have to have boundaries, too. And here they are.

Brooke Suchomel: 6:52

Right. I thought it was really interesting how the TV show completely reinterprets Dawn's, like. where she gets help with those boundaries. Because in the TV show, you see Dawn's mom setting that boundary.

Kaykay Brady: 7:08

Yes! I was cheering. I was like, woop woop! More good parenting on display in the show.

Brooke Suchomel: 7:15

Exactly. That is not what happens in the book, at all. Likewise, in the book, Dawn doesn't reach out to Kristy when she's panicking, when Buddy is gone. It's Mrs. Pike who actually provides some help after being like, "If you don't find him in a half hour, let me know."

Kaykay Brady: 7:33

I forgot Mrs. Pike got involved.

Brooke Suchomel: 7:35

Yeah, so Mrs. Pike is the one that really sort of takes charge and comes over and helps. Mallory gets involved, the cops go on a search with like six German Shepherds that go searching for him. It's a huge deal in the book. And Dawn is kind of left with, the mom next door can come over and help me with this. And then at the very, very end of that situation, Dawn's mom shows up to kind of comfort her. But you don't have Kristy over there helping out at all. You don't have Dawn reaching out to Kristy. So I thought it was interesting how they really focused on having Dawn and Kristy connect in this.

Kaykay Brady: 8:13

Yeah. And then that really puts a bow on one of the central tensions of the show, which is absent fathers, struggling with fathers, right. This is what allows Kristy and Dawn to not only have their first connection as friends themselves, but also brings the tension to an explicit level where Kristy is able to kind of realize that she's feeling kind of jealous about Dawn's relationship with her dad because you know, she sees her Facetiming with her dad, and Kristy eventually realizes that she's feeling jealous, she's feeling hurt, and then they're able to kind of have a really good moment together where they're vulnerable with each other.

Brooke Suchomel: 8:58

Are you talking about the scene where after Buddy Barrett shows up with his dad?

Kaykay Brady: 9:04

The chips.

Brooke Suchomel: 9:05

Yeah, Kristy goes into...

Kaykay Brady: 9:07

Beats up two bags of chips.

Brooke Suchomel: 9:08

She does, which looked really fun.

Kaykay Brady: 9:10

It did, although, you know, I can't support beating up Doritos. The random nameless tortilla chips? Fine, but not Doritos.

Brooke Suchomel: 9:19

Well, unless you're using it to top a taco pizza.

Kaykay Brady: 9:25

Or casserole. I hear you do that in the Midwest.

Brooke Suchomel: 9:28

Yeah. There are entire Midwestern foods that rely on crushed Doritos to top things and I think that this would be a great way to do it. Just like punch the shit out of a full closed bag of Doritos and see what happens.

Kaykay Brady: 9:44

Got issues with your dad? Make a casserole! This is called Daddy Angst casserole.

Brooke Suchomel: 9:53

That's actually, I think that is Midwestern doctrine. It's like that is in one of the rules of how to carry your life. Are you angry and frustrated about something? Keep it bottled and just go make a casserole. You can make a casserole, but let it out. So that scene, I'm curious to your reaction to that scene because I found that my response to what was happening sort of evolved as it went along.

Kaykay Brady: 10:18

Tell me. I want to hear about your evolution.

Brooke Suchomel: 10:19

Because you don't know why she's doing it at first.

Kaykay Brady: 10:22

Yeah, it comes kind of out of nowhere. She just goes in the kitchen and starts beating up on chips.

Brooke Suchomel: 10:26

Right? When you see that Buddy's home and okay, she just walks away, no explanation, and just starts beating up chips. I think we the viewer are in Dawn's place, where you're just sort of standing there, Dawn's just trying to figure out what's going on, just sort of taking it in. And I, at first, before Kristy said anything, was thinking that Kristy was letting out the bottled up frustration about oh, my God, this is a member of my club who was watching a child and now we've got the cops involved. The kid went missing. Like, this is my club, and somebody potentially could have been hurt.

Kaykay Brady: 11:08

So your first read was that she couldn't act out on that during the crisis, she had to be in crisis mode. And then right after the crisis, she was living out that frustration, her feelings about sort of what Dawn had done or not done.

Brooke Suchomel: 11:21

Right, or just the loss of control.

Kaykay Brady: 11:23

The loss of control.

Brooke Suchomel: 11:24

Because we know about Kristy, and Kristy's mom obviously knows this about her and says it in the first episode, "I know how much you feel the need to be in control." And I can't imagine that there's many situations that would be more fearful for Kristy than like a child going missing from her new potential club member. Dawn is still a probationary member at this point in the series, in the TV show. And letting that out. So that was what I was thinking initially, which I could see that being what Dawn was thinking initially too, like, Oh, shit.

Kaykay Brady: 12:00

I'm in trouble here.

Brooke Suchomel: 12:01

Right? And maybe that is part of it. Maybe that is the thing that all sort of comes to a head. Just like Kristy doesn't have control over what happened with Buddy, she also doesn't have control over the fact that her dad doesn't want a relationship with her. So there are things in her life that she has no control over, and just that sort of coming to a head all at once in the situation that's probably her worst nightmare, leads to the punching of chips.

Kaykay Brady: 12:25

Right. And you speak to something that is really true about human beings, which is there is no feelings about other people's actions without our own feelings. So of course, she might feel that loss of control, maybe have some feelings about Dawn in that moment. And those feelings are, of course, a direct result of her own experiences, her own insecurities, her own feelings. I totally agree with you. I think it's both. And it's a good representation of the way human beings feel, right? It's never like, I'm mad at you, you are worthy of being mad at, it's a subjective thing that I can determine. You're always bringing yourself to the table, your own experiences, your own trauma, big trauma, little trauma.

Brooke Suchomel: 13:11

Right, no feelings happen in a vacuum. You can't compartmentalize your emotions in specific situations.

Kaykay Brady: 13:17

Yeah. And having those feelings of control tweaked are probably what gives Kristy some kind of catharsis about what's really happening. Because, you know, you've probably heard in therapy, there's primary and secondary emotions. So like, the secondary emotion is the control, the anxiety. And the primary emotion is probably the sadness and the loss of her dad or feeling unloved. It's probably the secondary emotion that gets shaken so hard that allows her to ground into that primary emotion and gives her some catharsis. So it feels very true to how human beings operate. But I thought it was cool. I mean, I didn't have a read either way, when she started beating up the chips, I was just kind of waiting to see where it would go. You know, I thought maybe it would be something deeper for Kristy, because you could kind of tell through the episode that we were kind of sailing towards that. We had to be sailing towards something for Kristy because Kristy was kind of a lot this episode. And there are moments where you're like, Oh, eyeroll Kristy, come on. Although again, I think the actor pulls off Kristy so well, I mean, you could, just by how this is written, you could just be really hating Kristy, but there's just something about the actor. She's able to kind of pull it off in a way that, I don't know, is almost like lovable. You're like, Oh, there she goes again. There's her little snarky little face.

Brooke Suchomel: 14:40

Yeah, well, you can see that she's feeling left out. They make that clear when they go to the Pinterest board.

Kaykay Brady: 14:47

Yeah.

Brooke Suchomel: 14:48

Because Mary Anne is like, Okay, my dad is I'm relating so hard to Kristy in that moment. Whenever you gonna let me redo a few things in my room. So they immediately start with color schemes and blah, blah, blah. And Kristy's like, "Navy blue's nice! It covers the dirt." You know, and she's just kind of standing back like, okay, I don't know how to participate in this particular conversation. So I'll just throw out anything that comes to mind so I can be a part of it. And it's like, what is it, navy blue, Broadway musicals are a good theme. And they start talking about textiles. She's talk about fabrics or dress, I'm always like, What now? like, "Like yarn?" Do I talk about fabrics often?

Kaykay Brady: 15:37

Once in a while. Like, before going to a wedding, you and I have gone to multiple weddings, and so there's gonna be discussion of like dresses and fabrics. And you'll be like, Oh, yeah, it was this kind of blah blah blah, I'm like, the words that are coming out of your mouth mean nothing. They mean less than nothing.

Brooke Suchomel: 15:52

I love that. It is like so jarring that it like sticks with you. And I'm sorry.

Kaykay Brady: 15:59

Well, more than that, I'm like, you know, Brooke has this knowledge. And my sister too. I feel the same with my sister. It's just a wealth of knowledge that I just do not have, where I just think there's just a lot of information that these two have that I don't even begin to unpack.

Brooke Suchomel: 16:16

Well, to be fair, same. Like the other day, camping. Yeah, camping. People are talking about like, oh, what about your generator and your alternator and blah, blah, blah. And I am just like, I'm gonna leave the room now, because I don't speak this language. I was Kristy with the yard.

Kaykay Brady: 16:33

Yeah, that's exactly how I feel.

Brooke Suchomel: 16:35

So we all have our yarn moments, just in different venues.

Kaykay Brady: 16:39

You need lots of different kinds of friends. And then everybody brings, you know, this different specialty to the table.

Brooke Suchomel: 16:46

It's a beautiful quilt of friendship. Everybody bringing their own square of knowledge and apparently mine are fabrics. Yeah, so we see that Kristy also, you know, she's like, I wrote the club constitution of a break. Don't you check your email?

Kaykay Brady: 17:00

I died laughing. She's like, it's in the bylaws. Don't you ever read your email?

Brooke Suchomel: 17:07

Everybody just looks at her. So yeah, you know, it was nice the way that they worked this arc in with Dawn and Kristy, because there was the potential for it to go into just like, awkward tension and hostility, especially since we only have 10 episodes with these girls for the season.

Kaykay Brady: 17:27

It would be hard to get back from.

Brooke Suchomel: 17:29

You don't want to watch that.

Kaykay Brady: 17:30

You know who's pretty responsible for saving it from that is Dawn. And she explicitly kind of feels herself getting activated by Kristy's rudeness, and then really explicitly chooses to kind of kill her with kindness, and to turn to her as an expert. Which is great. It's like a woowoo version of Dale Carnegie.

Brooke Suchomel: 17:51

It's that emotional intelligence again, right? What did she say, it was like, "The light in me decided to see the light in Kristy" or something.

Kaykay Brady: 18:01

The namaste in me or something?

Brooke Suchomel: 18:04

We see that happen in the book too, in a different way, where they're at the lunch table together, and Dawn has joined them at the lunch table. And she notices that Kristy is feeling left out. So she turns the conversation explicitly to Kristy. And she says that she's doing that, internally, like her internal monologue is like, she could tell that Kristy was feeling left out and so she wanted her to feel a part of it. And then she also says to Mary Anne, "She's not mad, she's jealous." So again, getting at that sort of, what's the secondary and primary emotion? We see that in the book, too. And so they take that into Dawn saying, "Hey, maybe you could come over and teach me what you know, I'd love to learn from an expert." Which is exactly the way to get into Kristy's good graces. And it works, which reminded me too of like the the drill that they put Jessi and Mallory through.

Kaykay Brady: 18:58

Yes, I was thinking about that, too.

Brooke Suchomel: 19:00

But then you see that, it reminded me of the Watson at the dinner table moment where he's like, "Oh, do you have dues too?" And Kristy's like, "Uh huh, yeah, all of that." It's the same thing. We've had that little like light of recognition. When Dawn is like, "Oh, yeah, you want to ask too if the kid has any food allergies, because sometimes the parent might forget to tell you that." And Kristy's like, "Uh huh. Yeah." And you can see she had that same like, Oh, yeah, that's something that I should do too. So Kristy sees that she has things that Dawn can teach her as well, which I think is why they're able to really bond in the way that they do at the end.

Kaykay Brady: 19:34

I mean, it's just shows the strength of Dawn, that she can bring that kind of humility to the table. Anybody that can bring that kind of humility in order to care for someone else and be open to their thoughts, that is true strength. Versus Kristy's strength is kind of a, what's the word, like a brittle strength. And Dawn's, you can see how that's a true strength, where she's really confident in herself. And, you know, true confident people can do that. And it also provides leadership for Kristy, right? Because she's modeling that behavior for Kristy like, Hey, you know, you don't always have to be in control and you don't always have to be right. Like, you can be even stronger by being having humility and softness. And so you imagine probably over time, Kristy's gonna be able to like, realize that that's okay, that's safe.

Brooke Suchomel: 20:30

Yeah. Well, it seems like they both have this hyper competence. It's just expressed in different ways. And they both have like pros and cons with that. I think with Kristy, you're right. It's brittle, because it's like, she feels like I have to hold everything together. Like the responsibility is on me to hold everything together. It's like the oldest daughter syndrome, right, where she's definitely not the oldest child, but you see, she's the one that's like, Okay, I'm responsible for David Michael. You know, she's the one in the very first episode that she's putting a puzzle together with David Michael, while her older brothers are just like playing video games and kind of ignoring them. So it seems like she's like, Okay, this is on me to bear this burden. And Dawn is like that, too, with Mrs. Barrett, which is why I think it was really good that Dawn's mom is the one that ultimately comes in and draws that line, because Dawn isn't mature enough to set those boundaries yet. We shouldn't expect her to be. She's 13 years old.

Kaykay Brady: 21:32

Oh, you're blowing my mind. Because I'm also realizing that the first conversation that happens about Mrs. Barrett is between Dawn and Kristy. And Kristy says, Oh, she's a post divorce wrecking ball. And then Dawn says, Oh, that's really reductive. So you kind of have like, two extremes in Kristy and Dawn. You have Kristy who's brittle. And then you have Dawn, who's so open and empathetic, it's like there's no boundaries.

Brooke Suchomel: 22:00

And Kristy says, when Dawn is like falling asleep in the meeting because she was up all night again, tending to Mrs. Barrett's needs. Kristy says, "It sounds like she needs boundaries."

Kaykay Brady: 22:12

Yeah, I didn't realize that Kristy explicitly use the word.

Brooke Suchomel: 22:16

Literally uses the word "boundaries." So it's almost like Kristy has like, super rigid boundaries, like Kristy's boundaries are perhaps sometimes too firm. And Dawn's boundaries are too open.

Kaykay Brady: 22:30

That's so funny. Do you realize that this is like the primary theory of family systems therapy? Rigid boundaries and enmeshed boundaries, you know, those are the two poles. And if families have too rigid boundaries, or too enmeshed boundaries, both of those cause problems, right?

Brooke Suchomel: 22:46

It's almost like you need that permeable layer, right? Where you need boundaries that are set, and sometimes you can figure out, okay, we're going to make exceptions for specific situations. And so it's like, how can you get that in between?

Kaykay Brady: 22:59

Yeah, the middle path.

Brooke Suchomel: 23:01

Yeah, exactly. And I think we see the two opposite paths here. And I loved that the writers chose to make it, Dawn's mom puts her foot down. And Dawn's mom takes no shit. She's not even going to give Mrs. Barrett the opportunity to try to cuz she knows Dawn's going to go along with it. Dawn says, "I could have done that myself." And Dawn's mom responds, "I know, baby, but I'm your mom. And sometimes I want to take care of you."

Kaykay Brady: 23:31

Boom. Love.

Brooke Suchomel: 23:32

Which is lovely, because we don't see that as much in the book series with Dawn's mom.

Kaykay Brady: 23:39

No, you don't.

Brooke Suchomel: 23:40

Her mom is like, lost. I think her mom wants to be able to be that for Dawn, but at this point isn't capable. They say to each other, they feel like they're sisters, and not mother and daughter in the book. And here you see, mother and daughter. Dawn's mom comes over to help as well. Dawn's mom and Kristy are the ones that come over to help her when she is in crisis.

Kaykay Brady: 23:59

Yeah, you're so right. And it's nice because the show creates a pretty nuanced view of a person with their greatest assets also being a shadow side, which is how humans work. So you see, Dawn's mom, her greatest asset is like her emotional intelligence. She shows up and she communicates that. She's not afraid, and she's also very intuitive. You know, she's very in touch with her emotions. She probably would be moon painting, etc. But it has the shadow side, right? The shadow side is like, she's leaving the iron on top of the brake front or whatever. I can't remember what she was putting...

Brooke Suchomel: 24:42

Oh, yeah, it was the mixer. It was the hand mixer on top of the living room wall shelves.

Kaykay Brady: 24:50

Yes. Or like, when they're in the Whole Foods type of store, and she says, "Mom, every time you get a feeling about a dish we eat at 9pm." So you know, you see sort of like the greatest parts of those character traits, and then the hard parts of those character traits. Which is much more human, and much more true. And in the book, you get just more of the hard parts of Dawn's mom.

Brooke Suchomel: 25:12

Definitely. Dawn's mom in the books is lost.

Kaykay Brady: 25:17

Yeah, that's a great word.

Brooke Suchomel: 25:19

She's sympathetic. She is kind. She means well, but she's lost.

Kaykay Brady: 25:26

You know, all of the parents are lost in the books. I'm trying to think of one parent that doesn't feel lost in the book.

Brooke Suchomel: 25:32

Perhaps after Kristy's mom gets married?

Kaykay Brady: 25:34

She kind of stabilizes.

Brooke Suchomel: 25:35

Yeah, which, I don't really love that message.

Kaykay Brady: 25:38

Sure. It's not not the greatest message. But yeah, I mean, you're right. There's some stability that comes in after that, but the mother is still not grounded the way that Alicia Silverstone is in the show.

Brooke Suchomel: 25:50

I love that she spits her tea out when she hears that Dawn's mom is seeing Mary Anne's dad.

Kaykay Brady: 25:56

Did you get the sense that Kristy's mom was at some point boning Dawn's dad?

Brooke Suchomel: 26:01

Oh god no. You mean Mary Anne's dad?

Kaykay Brady: 26:03

Sorry. Yeah. See, I was picking up when she split the tea that there was like some romantic connection.

Brooke Suchomel: 26:10

No. I mean, we get that there's tension with those two, because in the last...

Kaykay Brady: 26:16

I love your face, you were so horrified. You're like, Kristy's mom? She's got Watson!

Brooke Suchomel: 26:23

I don't think anybody's been boning Mary Anne's dad, at all, for good reason.

Kaykay Brady: 26:29

He's just been sitting at home with Humpty Dumpty, right?

Brooke Suchomel: 26:35

Yeah. In the last episode, Mary Anne's dad was like, "I've told Liz Thomas before, I'll tell her again." It seems like because Mary Anne and Kristy are best friends and have been for a long time, you know, your parents get to know each other. And I think it's probably just a matter of seeing like how rigid and uptight her dad is. Because she knows like, you know, in the first episode, she goes, "Well, can Mary Anne come stay here if you watch David Michael?" And she's like, "Her dad won't let her if you're not going to be here." She's like, "That's right." So she just knows that Mary Anne's dad is super buttoned up and cannot imagine that Dawn's mom would be interested in that. And we see why. What did you think about the relationship between the parents evolving over the course of this episode?

Kaykay Brady: 27:27

Well, it's interesting. I don't think in the books you see a lot of tension between them.

Brooke Suchomel: 27:33

It's super casual. Like, he comes over for a barbecue where Dawn's parents are as well. It's like, we're just grilling out. Dawn's mom is also, in the books, is playing the field. She's seeing other guys.

Kaykay Brady: 27:48

Oh, that's right. Lest we forget the Trip Man.

Brooke Suchomel: 27:52

Yeah, so we don't get to see that.

Kaykay Brady: 27:54

It's devastating we don't get to see the Trip Man.

Brooke Suchomel: 27:56

There's no fight. There's no battle over Mary Anne's room in the book. It's just fine.

Kaykay Brady: 28:02

Yeah, so Dawn's mom is very central in the sort of tension of Mary Anne's dad coming to terms with change, really, and maybe letting go of Mary Anne's mom a little bit. So I thought that was kind of cool and interesting that they brought Dawn's mom very central to that which again, feels pretty true to life, right? Especially if you've lost a spouse, you know, a new relationship's really gonna stir that up and challenge you in new ways. What did you think?

Brooke Suchomel: 28:30

Yeah, the same thing. He walks in on her pulling the wallpaper border off of the walls, and so I thought that it was probably like, that sent him back to him and his wife, probably putting that border up before she was even born. So seeing this as like a symbolic, she is erasing Mary Anne's mom from that room. And that is what he's responding to, you know, again, bringing his own take to the situation and his own read to it, which is not what anyone else is intending to do. But he's just got so much that he has packed in, which is probably why Mary Anne's room is frozen in time, why her hair has been frozen in time. It's not like in the book where her dad is like, No, you have to be this way. But he just probably hasn't really come to terms with the fact that this will change. And he's seeing it changing in front of his eyes and he's not cool with it. He has probably the worst reaction that he could have, though this leads to Mary Anne setting boundaries.

Kaykay Brady: 29:37

Yes, she finds her voice again.

Brooke Suchomel: 29:39

She does. She tells him, he tries to come into her room, she's like, "Go away."

Kaykay Brady: 29:45

Yeah, I couldn't believe it. I was like, wow, and I can't believe he just did it. He didn't yell or get mad or anything. He just kind of put his tail between his legs and simpered off.

Brooke Suchomel: 29:55

Yeah. Going through this, as I'm trying to sort of tease out what are the things, it's interesting to see how this was an episode about boundaries. And absent fathers, or perhaps emotionally absent fathers, even if they're physically present.

Kaykay Brady: 30:13

Absent in some manner.

Brooke Suchomel: 30:15

Yeah, that's what it is. But it's not like telegraphed, not beaten over the head with like, "This is a show about boundaries and absent fathers." It's just, at the end of the show, when you sit back and you look at what are the messages and the feelings that you have, you see that everything is intertwined around those two things, which is good writing.

Kaykay Brady: 30:36

Definitely. You've got to give the show credit, speaking of good writing, because there would be a real draw with that sort of voiceover approach to be like, "Boundaries are important," you know, and they really are able to avoid that. They use the voiceovers in really useful ways, but they do not beat you over the face with those voiceovers. And that would be a real temptation, I think, as a writer, to kind of load the lessons into there because it's easier. But no, instead, they really show, they don't tell.

Brooke Suchomel: 31:08

Exactly. There was one line that was delivered that I thought was explicit in the message that it was trying to give to the viewer, and I thought it really worked because it wasn't lecturing, it was celebratory. And that is when Kristy and Dawn have their heart to heart after the chip punching, which I want to do, I might do that later. I'm just gonna say, I might go to Costco and get a couple of bags of Doritos.

Kaykay Brady: 31:34

Do it. Then I'll eat the casserole. I get to eat your rage. Delicious!

Brooke Suchomel: 31:43

Eat my rage! Holy shit. I want to make a feminist cookbook called Eat My Rage. Who wouldn't buy that? And it's all things that you have to like punch and crush and smash things.

Kaykay Brady: 32:00

Mallets. Make it with an axe. We went camping, and we made potatoes with an axe. That would be part of your cookbook. We didn't have a knife, so we had to use an axe. They're really good.

Brooke Suchomel: 32:15

Why isn't there a video of this?

Kaykay Brady: 32:17

It was dark.

Brooke Suchomel: 32:18

Actually, night vision of like making potatoes with an axe. Oh my god. It's like The Blair Witch Project on the Food Channel. Anyways, Eat My Rage, coming to a bookstore near you soon. In the meantime, you know, Kristy is like, "I've been so terrible to you," and Dawn's like, "Look, we're both strong women with big personalities." And it was not like, "This is a problem." It was just like, this just explains why we might come into conflict, but they can work through it. It's not like the solution is be less strong, or shrink your personality. It's like, No, it's okay. We're in a society that doesn't really foster relationships between women who are strong with big personalities. Let's change that.

Kaykay Brady: 33:05

Great point. Yeah, and yet again with the major truth bombs of emotional intelligence. Being in relationship with other people equals conflict. You can't avoid it. You just can't avoid it. The only way to avoid it is to not be in relationship with other people.

Brooke Suchomel: 33:22

Mary Anne's dad.

Kaykay Brady: 33:23

Yeah, exactly. So Dawn really understands that the greater wisdom of humaneness right, which is, This is what it is, and you gotta communicate. That's the only way you get through it. And when you communicate, you get stronger together.

Brooke Suchomel: 33:38

Yeah. And that's when Kristy really welcomes her in, right after Dawn says that. So like, "I see you who you are, and we have this connection. These are things that we have in common." That's when Kristy is like, "We need to make you not a probationary officer, you're in the club." And I love, "How about alternate officer? Because it means that you can do everything and you can do everything." So again, it's such an uplifting, good, positive thing. "And also because you're kind of 90s alternative," which made me really happy too, because I'm also kind of 90s alternative. So that's I think why I really like Dawn.

Kaykay Brady: 34:16

Dawn's the shit. I mean, I know you are a tremendous Dawn stan from the book, not that I'm not, but like you really stan Dawn. In the show, I am such a Dawn fan. 120%. She's just a true evolved human being in the show. And she still had lessons to learn and growth she had to do in this episode. She's not perfect, you know?

Brooke Suchomel: 34:36

Exactly. That's why I like her even more in the TV show. Because in the book, that's one of the things, she's almost too mature, where you're just like, the Dawn of the books is going to have a breakdown at some point, really.

Kaykay Brady: 34:48

Yeah, and she's not really like a kid. She doesn't have kid moments or thoughts, you know, she's real grown up.

Brooke Suchomel: 34:55

Yeah, because she has to be. Because her mom is not stepping in to do the kind of interventions that she needs, that we see her mom step in and do in this. So it's like, who cares if you have your hand mixer on the shelf in the living room, if you are there to step up, and to provide your daughter with the kind of guidance and support and protection that she needs? The Dawn of the books is unprotected.

Kaykay Brady: 35:22

Very true.

Brooke Suchomel: 35:23

The dawn of the TV show has protection, and I'm very happy for that.

Kaykay Brady: 35:27

Great protection. You know, not only is the mom showing up, and really cutting through all the bullshit, as you said before, because you can really get into some sort of power struggle with that mom, or, you know, you could call the mom and start screaming at her, and then all of a sudden, it would be about your relationship, but she really cuts through the bullshit of just like, "You know, you can't be doing this to my daughter. You're not talking to her right now." Which is so strong and so clear. She has such a clear view of it. And then an even more clear view of it to Dawn to say, "No, I'm your mom. Once in a while I have to do this. That's how it is."

Brooke Suchomel: 36:01

Yeah, she doesn't say, "You're 13. You don't always know what's best for you." But when you're 13, you don't always know what's best for you.

Kaykay Brady: 36:07

Of course! That's the thing, when you're 13, you kind of feel that you should be able to handle everything. And you really can't, you know. You really still need the sort of safety brakes of your parents.

Brooke Suchomel: 36:18

Yeah. So I love that Dawn's mom is like that. And I think part of that might also have to do with the fact that it seems like, first of all, we know she's got more support. We know she's got that communication. She's got her moon sisters.

Kaykay Brady: 36:32

She's got her moon sisters up in the woods.

Brooke Suchomel: 36:35

And it seems like her divorce is much more open, much more amicable, like, we get to see Dawn is Facetiming with her dad and it seems like her dad's partner.

Kaykay Brady: 36:48

Yeah, you know, there's some like conscious uncoupling happening there.

Brooke Suchomel: 36:51

Totally. It's very Goop.

Kaykay Brady: 36:57

I would love to hear Dawn's mom's opinion on Goop. I don't think it would be good.

Brooke Suchomel: 37:00

Probably not, no. Dawn's mom is definitely, she's not buying her wares from the internet. She is down at the hippie health food store getting shit in bulk.

Kaykay Brady: 37:11

What were they talking about, ancient grains?

Brooke Suchomel: 37:13

Amaranth.

Kaykay Brady: 37:14

Amaranth. Yeah, I loved that scene where they were flirting and Dawn says, "What I learned today is that adults flirt by talking about ancient grains." That cracked me up.

Brooke Suchomel: 37:25

A specific kind of adult. Yes, this is true.

Kaykay Brady: 37:29

Not this adult!

Brooke Suchomel: 37:30

That is a thing that goes down. I have seen that go down at the co op, I absolutely have. So I felt that. And you also get to see Mary Anne's dad in the TV show, we were really proud of how we saw Mary Anne's dad interact with Mary Anne in the last episode. And then it's like, but it's not just going to be a continual "everything's great now, problem solved, no going back to bad habits." Like we see, this is too far for him. He's reverting back. It's a process, and that's real.

Kaykay Brady: 38:05

You're right, in the book, it's much more like, "Oh, things have changed."

Brooke Suchomel: 38:09

Mary Anne's dad gets laid and then he's fine. No, that's not how...

Kaykay Brady: 38:15

Yeah, that's much more true to life, for sure.

Brooke Suchomel: 38:18

I'm very curious to see how this unfolds, and I don't think we get another Mary Anne centric episode in the season. So it'll be interesting to see how we see this relationship evolve, because obviously, it's not going to end

Kaykay Brady: 38:32

No, no, I mean, you imagine this is gonna keep there. coming back. Especially how they're connecting it to many more relationships in the series than in the book, right? Because in the book, it's more like, this is between Mary Anne and her dad, but now it's sort of like Dawn's mom is also pulled into the center of this. You know, it's kind of like all the relationships are spinning around this too. So yeah, they couldn't really drop it. But yeah, I'll be curious too.

Brooke Suchomel: 38:56

And I think we'll get the same thing with the growth with the characters too, because much in the same way that I think Dawn sort of jumped to Mrs. Barrett's defense, and was probably the reason why she was willing to overextend herself in the way that she did is it seems in the voiceover that you get when she heard Kristy call her "a recently divorced wrecking ball," it was like she immediately identified Mrs. Barrett with Dawn's mom. I think she saw a connection there. She's sort of took it personally. And it was almost like in her relationship with the Barretts, she's trying to provide the kind of support for Mrs. Barrett that she also wants to provide to her mom.

Kaykay Brady: 39:35

Yeah. And she might have also been going in with the assumption that Mrs. Barrett would also protect her, that Mrs. Barrett had boundaries like her mom does. Like, okay, maybe she's a little bit of a shit show around the edges, but when it counts, she's there. And not so with Mrs. Barrett. You know, she truly is lost. I think Mrs. Barrett is a parent you see in the Netflix series that is really lost.

Brooke Suchomel: 39:54

So it's nice that they set that for a boundary, like, we can't fix this for you. Whereas in the book, Dawn is like, I'll keep on doing your laundry, but you're going to have to pay me extra for it.

Kaykay Brady: 40:03

That's the version of boundary setting. Money.

Brooke Suchomel: 40:07

These patterns that we see people working with, Dawn didn't get to that point of being like, perhaps too open and fluid with her boundaries without having that 13 years of experience that led her to be that way. So what we saw with Mary Anne's dad sort of regressing in this episode makes me think that we're probably going to see characters evolve and regress and evolve and regress in subtle and large ways. So I'm sure that our take on these characters in Episode Five is going to be different from our take on these characters in Episode 10. And just thinking about how rare that is, when in children's television, you generally get characters that are archetypes, that don't change. These are characters that are written like actual human beings, which is really, really, really exciting to think about how kids that are raised with humanity in their television characters, will that help them develop better empathy, better understanding of humanity in real life? I hope so.

Kaykay Brady: 41:13

Definitely. And also just the dualities that they're asking you to hold. You know, shows, especially kid shows, they tend to be so black or white, this or that. And the show is doing an amazing job, similar to how the book does, of just being more of a "yes and." And sort of saying, all of these things can be true at once. We can both have big personalities and conflict with each other, and one is not right, and one is not wrong. Just teaching kids about the complexity of humaneness, rather than teaching them to see things more simply, which typically media is doing, like, "You're bad, you're good. This is the good guy. This is the bad guy." So it's brilliant they're doing it this way. They're doing it really well, and what a great service to kids. You know, because it's a lifelong endeavor, right? To be able to hold all the truths about people and hold them with kindness and empathy and openness. Fuck yeah!

Brooke Suchomel: 42:12

And I think too like, the fact that you also get nods to kids that are in negative home environments, oppressive home environments, where she says, "We don't have a choice who our parents are. You get who you get, if you get them at all." Right. So there might be kids, not my there will be kids watching this show who are in abusive homes, who are in neglectful homes who are in homes where they're watching this, they're like Mrs. Barrett looks like a better situation than what I have right now. Sure, right. So this is like a nod to those kids. Because it's true, you don't pick your family. You don't. And sometimes you can feel bad about yourself. Because you might feel like, Okay, my parents are one way or another, you know, kids in particular feel responsibility for that, like, what did I do wrong?

Kaykay Brady: 43:05

Of course, kids will always assume responsibility for everything that's happening, because that's less scary than being like, this parent doesn't have their shit together and can't care for you, which is what we see with Kristy.

Brooke Suchomel: 43:16

I think one of the reasons why we see Kristy's hyper competence, like, maybe if she just gets everything right, her dad will love her, you know? And so to have a show that's saying to kids who might be in a really bad home environment, "It's not your fault, and you just have to get through this." Basically, you might be able to form a good relationship with your parents, a healthier relationship with your parents, you might not. It's not your fault how your parents are towards you, especially as a child. That's on your parents, you didn't choose that. How do you work within it? That's why you get to see a range of complicated parenting in this episode, and how the kids deal with it. And to have a voice over basically reassuring, like, not coming out and saying it explicitly, but implying to the viewer that whatever situation that you're in, just trying to give them that comfort, I think is really nice and important.

Kaykay Brady: 44:12

Definitely, I think that's really well put. And also, I think it ties to Kristy's message where she says, you know, every tantrum is a message or a communication or something like that.

Brooke Suchomel: 44:23

"David Michael wasn't really mad that his cheese was too yellow. It was something else, and he took it out on the bread."

Kaykay Brady: 44:30

Yeah. And same with the chips, right? So, you know, that idea that kids are going to have reactions, and they're going to be upset, and you know, the ability to see like, what is the communication underneath it? What is really happening? Especially if a kid is in a situation where they're not getting parented exactly the way they need. I think that's also a really strong message. You can apply it through the lifespan and I think you see them kind of doing that. It's kind of like adults are having tantrums, teens, tweens are having tantrums. Babies are having tantrums, and we know that the tantrum is a message and it's not the primary emotion. It's the secondary emotion.

Brooke Suchomel: 45:13

A lot of wisdom in 26 minutes of the show.

Kaykay Brady: 45:17

Good job writers. If you're listening, good job.

Brooke Suchomel: 45:20

Good job. Did you have any modern moments that jumped out at you?

Kaykay Brady: 45:24

I don't know, mayonnaise on a grilled cheese? Kristy says, "How do you make the most crunchy grilled cheese?" And Dawn was like, "A good pan" or something, and Kristy said, "No. Mayonnaise."

Brooke Suchomel: 45:34

That is a tip that I learned during quarantine. And I have to admit...

Kaykay Brady: 45:37

Really? Sounds amazing. I love mayonnaise. I love cheese.

Brooke Suchomel: 45:41

Oh, it's really good. No, it's good. Use that on the outside of the bread instead of butter. There you go.

Kaykay Brady: 45:45

All right, so I guess that felt modern to me. How about you?

Brooke Suchomel: 45:48

Well, Dawn's mom is going to brew her own kombucha, the adult version?

Kaykay Brady: 45:53

What do you think that means? Ayahuasca?

Brooke Suchomel: 45:56

No, just higher alcohol content.

Kaykay Brady: 45:57

I thought she's gonna put acid in it or something. The solstice is coming up!

Brooke Suchomel: 46:01

Well, who knows what mood strikes when the when the moon is full? So now that we have gotten a TV show for each and every one of the core five babysitters, we get to revisit our first babysitter in the next episode, which is, we are not going in order with the books starting with the next episode. So if we were to go in line with the book series, it would be Kristy's Big Day, which is when Kristy's mom and Watson get married, and they watch all of the children. Hopefully that won't happen. We'll find out. But they're putting that later in the series. And so the next episode is actually Claudia and Mean Janine.

Kaykay Brady: 46:45

Ooh, yeah. This is one of my favorites. And I'm so curious to see how the show handles this sort of complex family dynamic that is very typical.

Brooke Suchomel: 46:56

The Mimi stroke will happen in the next episode.

Kaykay Brady: 46:59

And the sibling rivalry.

Brooke Suchomel: 47:00

Yeah, exactly. Oh my god, and like, this Janine.

Kaykay Brady: 47:04

I know. So curious where they're gonna take it!

Brooke Suchomel: 47:08

I'm looking forward to finding out and talking with you about that next week.

Kaykay Brady: 47:12

Me too, my friend.

Brooke Suchomel: 47:14

But until then...

Kaykay Brady: 47:15

Just keep sittin'. [theme] Got issues with your dad? Make a casserole!