Sourced Transcript for BSFC #4: Mary Anne Saves the Day
Brooke Suchomel: 0:18
Welcome to The Baby-sitters Fight Club, where the first rule is, "You don't talk about Fight Club." Instead, you talk about The Baby-sitters Club series of books by Anne M. Martin. I'm Brooke Suchomel.
Kaykay Brady: 0:29
And I'm Kaykay Brady.
Brooke Suchomel: 0:31
And this week we're traveling back to February 1987, when Madonna was pleading for us to open our hearts while Bon Jovi was living on a prayer and the Beastie Boys were fighting for their right to party.
Kaykay Brady: 0:43
Yes!
Brooke Suchomel: 0:44
Platoon spent the entire month atop the box office but three movies that at least one of your friends recorded off of TV were also released in theaters. Some Kind of Wonderful, Over the Top -- my husband's favorite.
Kaykay Brady: 0:57
Oh, yeah, that's a classic.
Brooke Suchomel: 0:59
He sees that at least once a month -- and Mannequin.
Kaykay Brady: 1:01
Yes! Mannequin!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:04
The HBO staple.
Kaykay Brady: 1:05
Oh, yeah, that was the staple of my HBO childhood. You know, I just have to share this. Every time I go to Whole Foods and they make me a sandwich, I think about -- wait, who is the star of that?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:18
Kim Cattrall?
Kaykay Brady: 1:19
Well, no, the male star.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:21
Oh, Andrew McCarthy.
Kaykay Brady: 1:22
Yeah. So every time I go to Whole Foods, and they make me a sandwich, all I could think about is Andrew McCarthy in the first scene of Mannequin because they're so fucking slow. It's like they're making a goddamn piece of found art. You're the only person in the world that I could share that story with and you'd be like, "Yes, I know what you're saying. Haha, that's funny."
Brooke Suchomel: 1:45
I completely get it. Yeah. I kind of just like to think that like, every time you go to Whole Foods, you just think about Andrew McCarthy, and that there's like no explanation.
Kaykay Brady: 1:54
I mean, in my life --
Brooke Suchomel: 1:55
Just for no reason whatsoever. Right. Right. I enjoy that. Thank you for sharing.
Kaykay Brady: 2:00
Yeah, for what it's worth.
Brooke Suchomel: 2:02
And 100 million people watched a week long miniseries on ABC called Amerika, with a K, which imagined life in a future version of the United States after all of its communication systems are destroyed by the Soviet Union, who further conquer America by dividing the country into regions in order to neutralize the threat of a unified nation. According to Wikipedia, quote, "Amerika implies that American apathy and an unwillingness to defend freedom on the part of many citizens made the Soviet takeover rather easy."
Kaykay Brady: 2:33
Wow, prescient.
Brooke Suchomel: 2:35
Yeah, good thing that that is completely irrelevant to the world that we're living in.
Kaykay Brady: 2:39
Good thing that's not happening right now.
Brooke Suchomel: 2:40
I know! It was so crazy... Anyway, and also the fourth Baby-sitters Club book, Mary Anne Saves the Day, was released. Quoting from the back cover, quote, "Mary Anne has never been a leader of the Baby-sitters Club. She's left that up to Kristy, or Claudia, or Stacey. But now there's a big fight among the four friends and Mary Anne doesn't have them to depend on anymore. It's bad enough when she's left alone at the lunch table at school, but when she has to babysit a sick child without any help from the club members, Mary Anne knows it's time to take charge. The Baby-sitters Club is going to fall apart unless somebody does something -- fast! Maybe it's time for Mary Anne to step in and save the day." End quote. So speaking of institutional threats posed by a house divided, this book was intense, and almost witnessed the self inflicted and completely unnecessary implosion of the Baby-sitters Club. So Kaykay, did reading this dredge up any of that uniquely awful middle school dread like it did for me?
Kaykay Brady: 3:48
Well, it's gonna be an interesting conversation, I think, because here's the thing about me, I only hung out with boys.
Brooke Suchomel: 3:55
Mmm.
Kaykay Brady: 3:56
And so while all that shit was happening in the lunchroom, I was out playing football.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:02
Yeah!
Kaykay Brady: 4:02
And my nickname was "Refrigerator Perry," by the way. That's -- and I'm proud. I was proud and I am proud.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:10
As you should be. Refrigerator Perry was the only athlete, the only sports figure up until Orel Hershiser came to prominence with the LA Dodgers -- don't ask me why I got into that, but I super did, I think it's because he was on a folder that I got, and so then I was like, "This is my favorite everything."
Kaykay Brady: 4:35
Of course.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:36
But before that, Refrigerator Perry was, like, The Man. Like, I was into him.
Kaykay Brady: 4:40
Wow, another beautiful connection between us, friend.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:42
Yeah. Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 4:43
So yeah, you know, it was really kind of hard to read this book, because number one, I was asking myself, is this really what it was like?
Brooke Suchomel: 4:51
Yes.
Kaykay Brady: 4:51
And number two, I was thinking to myself, who the fuck would choose this? This is awful.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:58
Right?
Kaykay Brady: 4:58
And then number three, I was thinking, you know, every one of these children have borderline personality disorder. Because it just, it's zero to 1000, immediately. There's just barely any conflict, and then it's outright war.
Brooke Suchomel: 5:15
Right. You know, I was thinking about the first book.
Kaykay Brady: 5:19
Mm hmm.
Brooke Suchomel: 5:20
You know, when in the first episode, we were talking about book one, Kristy's Great Idea, and how this series felt very true to me, because I felt like they are a good reflection of what friendships are like growing up, and how when there's conflict, you understand where the conflict is coming from. And this was- this escalated quickly.
Kaykay Brady: 5:45
Very quickly.
Brooke Suchomel: 5:48
And I think that that is, that is true, things do -- in my, in my experience anyway -- things would escalate quickly. And sometimes you were like, “Wait, what did I do? Where is this coming from?”
Kaykay Brady: 5:58
“Where did this come from?”
Brooke Suchomel: 5:59
Yeah, I feel like actually the conflict in book two, where Claudia immediately jumps to conclusions, and assumes that Kristy is the one who was talking about her crush, right, and confronts Kristy about it. And Kristy is like, "What are you talking about?," and Claudia is like, "Oh, wait" -- that felt to be a little bit more honest, but I think a lot of people absolutely had the experience of all of a sudden, your friends are all fighting, and you don't know how that happened. And like the conflict in and of itself is just, it just continues to fuel itself. It's like a wildfire that rages out of control.
Kaykay Brady: 6:38
Yeah, especially as everything gets really uncomfortable. She did a really great job of sort of presenting that really uncomfortable feeling, which is exacerbating the entire situation where they kind of ignore each other, and then it gets worse. They do this, it gets worse, you know, sort of every time they're not connecting, and every time the routine is disrupted. It's just, they go further and further down that sort of rabbit hole.
Brooke Suchomel: 7:01
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 7:01
All right, so for me, it was pretty hard to read this, even though, you know, I didn't personally have a history of a lot of this kind of drama. What was it like for you --
Brooke Suchomel: 7:13
Oh, brutal.
Kaykay Brady: 7:14
-- to read this with the history of that?
Brooke Suchomel: 7:16
That's why I texted you like, oh, man, this is dredging some stuff up for me, reading it, because even though I feel like some of it doesn't ring as true. Like, I think the way that the resolution happens, and perhaps it's an effect of the fact that, you know, we only see Mary Anne's perspective, which is normally, I think, a real strength. But when you're looking at how these four people are relating to one another, and when some of them are acting in ways that seems completely out of character for them. Like, I felt like Kristy and Stacey's behavior in this book was out of character for them. Kristy in particular, because Kristy, in book one, you know, that's one of the things that we talked about is, you know, she's really, for her age, got a highly developed sense of empathy. And is always thinking about how her actions are making other people feel, and you know, tries to regulate her behavior accordingly. She's the one in this book that you're just like, "Rein her in," like...
Kaykay Brady: 8:26
If you read this book first, you would think, "Why are these people friends with this person?"
Brooke Suchomel: 8:32
Right, like, she's the worst.
Kaykay Brady: 8:34
You would say, this series is about an abusive control freak, and her abused friends.
Brooke Suchomel: 8:41
Totally. And the fact that she's the one that gets physical.
Kaykay Brady: 8:44
I know, that's where I truly just almost threw the book out the window thinking, "What the fuck, really? No way."
Brooke Suchomel: 8:52
So I think that was my biggest issue with this book was I felt that Kristy's behavior was taken too far.
Kaykay Brady: 8:59
Mm hmm.
Brooke Suchomel: 8:59
Like, I think it's one thing to be like, when Mary Anne is trying to approach her and she's just refusing --
Kaykay Brady: 9:05
Sure, yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 9:06
I think even with that, it's a little over the top. But when she's like going out of her way to harm who has been her best friend until now, and reading into it, like particularly at the end, when they all apologize to one another -- and I know we're kind of jumping ahead, but it seems like you know, this is sort of the overarching thing that happens in the book, right? Is this fight and the resolution of it? And she's the one that is just like, "Well, somebody needs to apologize to me."
Kaykay Brady: 9:39
Mm hmm.
Brooke Suchomel: 9:39
And then says she can't even remember what she's angry about.
Kaykay Brady: 9:42
Mm hmm.
Brooke Suchomel: 9:42
So she's been, like crunching down on her friend's foot in the middle of a party that they're helping to throw for a four year old.
Kaykay Brady: 9:54
It's egregious, it's really egregious. Now when you say, when you say it was over the top, do you mean in the sense of, you thought the book was jumping the shark?
Brooke Suchomel: 10:03
Yeah, I felt like it just went a little too far. And then there are certainly times where your friends go too far.
Kaykay Brady: 10:11
Mm hmm.
Brooke Suchomel: 10:11
Like, there are certainly times that I can think of in my childhood, where my friend who was supposedly, you know, my best friend and I are like, she's pulling my hair, and I'm like, shoving her under the bus seat, you know, to, to get her to stop. Like, that's a real thing that happens. You know, 12 year old girls can absolutely --
Kaykay Brady: 10:36
Get physical.
Brooke Suchomel: 10:37
-- fight. Physically fight. That happens. But I guess for me, it's more the message that the book was delivering. Like, I don't have problem with the representation of how that tension can get physical and can get, you know, abusive at times. Like, I think it's perfectly fine to reflect that reality. But the issue that I had was more in the resolution. There didn't seem to be, like, it's one thing for all of them to apologize for what they did, and to acknowledge that. But like, Kristy went above and beyond --
Kaykay Brady: 11:16
Definitely.
Brooke Suchomel: 11:17
—in her treatment of her friends. And I felt like it was kind of like, “As long as you all apologize…” But it's like, I don't think that the, you know, the way that this was resolved, at least on Kristy's end, it's not an appropriate, like, the scale of apology, I think, needed to be more intense. And I can see why like reading into it as an adult, you could see why Kristy would be particularly affronted by this fight, right? This is her club, like, she's proud of it. And you know, she's probably taking a great deal of her self esteem in a tumultuous time when her mom is about to get remarried. You know, she's taking her self esteem from that club. And when that club feels threatened, her reaction is probably going to be more heightened. Now, I think that's where Stacey, I thought was a bit out of character too, because we just came off of the book where Stacey was like, "We can't have this club break up," like, "this club is everything to me." And then for her to just kind of be like, two middle fingers up to them the next book just seemed a bit odd. Like, Mary Anne and Claudia were the ones who were more willing, it seemed, to like, reach out and Stacey wasn't at all. Like, she's the one that, like, takes off in a run so that she doesn't -- and to me, it's more like that just didn't quite match up with the previous everything that we have learned about that character before. But then with Kristy, like you can kind of resolve it with her character, if you think about the fact that, like, well, not only is that happening, but also she sees Mary Anne forming this new friendship with Dawn.
Kaykay Brady: 13:02
I was gonna say, Kristy's in love with Mary Anne.
Brooke Suchomel: 13:05
Yeah, I mean, there's, no matter what, there is this like bond that she seems, like, all of her bonds are being weakened, from her perspective, right? Like, all of the relationships that she has had to this point in her life are changing. And so when the one sort of stable part of your life seems to be at risk, and like the fact that, like, the fight happens in the club meeting...
Kaykay Brady: 13:35
Mm hmm.
Brooke Suchomel: 13:36
Right? So that, like, safe haven becomes the thing that threatens everything to her.
Kaykay Brady: 13:40
It's a powder keg.
Brooke Suchomel: 13:41
Yeah, like, you can see her going over the top in her reaction in a way that the other three perhaps don't. And it is also interesting that the viciousness is directed at the person that each is closest with.
Kaykay Brady: 13:55
Yes.
Brooke Suchomel: 13:56
Claudia and Stacey seem to be particularly, And that certainly rings true, like, they're the ones sticking their tongue out at each other all the time. Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 14:02
And I can relate to that in terms of, you know, a sibling relationship.
Brooke Suchomel: 14:06
Yeah, definitely.
Kaykay Brady: 14:07
That happens with your siblings all the time, where basically, all of the internal struggle that you're going through just gets poured out with just insane vitriol on our sibling, just because they're there. They're not going anywhere.
Brooke Suchomel: 14:24
Yeah, there's that, like, duality of "this is a person who actually means a lot to me, so a lot of my identity and experiences is connected to this person." So you just have more intense feelings no matter what.
Kaykay Brady: 14:40
Yeah, they're intense either way.
Brooke Suchomel: 14:42
Yeah, exactly. And then also, you have this extra safety net.
Kaykay Brady: 14:47
Yes.
Brooke Suchomel: 14:47
Right? Where it feels like the boundaries are a bit more flexible, because no matter what, you've got this connection. And, you know, you feel like you can push those boundaries more in relationships that feel more secure --
Kaykay Brady: 15:04
Yeah, they’re safe.
Brooke Suchomel: 15:05
-- than in relationships that feel more tenuous.
Kaykay Brady: 15:06
Definitely.
Brooke Suchomel: 15:07
So I thought all of that made sense. But it was just, for me the disappointment was really, like, in the resolution, and just that Kristy just did not feel like the same character to me.
Kaykay Brady: 15:20
Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I don't know if it's part, you know, it could be partially what you say about, we don't get in her head. So you don't know what's going on for her. But it just seems so extreme, and, you know, so lacking in any kind of empathy that it was, it felt hard to believe to me.
Brooke Suchomel: 15:39
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 15:39
That sort of one character, especially. They all were shitty, but it was Kristy where I really thought, wow, that's just really over the edge. And it really was the stomping on the foot where, you know...
Brooke Suchomel: 15:49
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 15:49
I mean, and again, I can understand. I mean, first of all, don't think that there wasn't fistfights happening every day out on the football field with the boys. There absolutely was.
Brooke Suchomel: 15:59
Did you ever get in a fistfight with a boy?
Kaykay Brady: 16:01
Every day. I- literally, not kidding you. I- every day.
Brooke Suchomel: 16:10
Did you have like a signature, like, hook?
Kaykay Brady: 16:13
No, but I was just, I, for some reason I- so I was full height at 12 years old. And I, you know, like I am today, was extremely stout. And I could just destroy any boy physically. And they were very threatened by it. And so they constantly challenged me to fistfights and so I was having them every single day. And I was beating their asses in, and then I would get called into the principal. They would start the fight, I would beat their asses in --
Brooke Suchomel: 16:41
That's always how it goes.
Kaykay Brady: 16:42
Then I would go to the principal. So --
Brooke Suchomel: 16:44
Yeah, the victor gets in trouble.
Kaykay Brady: 16:45
Exactly. But I guess I just, you know, that seems appropriate for the milieu that we were playing in, you know. This sort of being outside, being physical.
Brooke Suchomel: 16:57
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 16:58
You know, it just felt surprising to me to have, you know, there's a lot of sort of mental war games going on. And that is more what I would expect for that age. And so when it turned physical, I just thought, well that- I could see it turning physical, but I would imagine that there would be some interim steps that made it physical.
Brooke Suchomel: 17:19
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 17:19
I don't know, you bump somebody, they bump you back. You say "don't fucking bump me," I don't know, but just…
Brooke Suchomel: 17:24
As opposed to seeking them out --
Kaykay Brady: 17:25
And cronching on their foot.
Brooke Suchomel: 17:26
-- in front of, like, a child's event? Yeah. That you're being paid to attend?
Kaykay Brady: 17:32
Exactly. And if someone did that to me, I- they would get a straight up punch to the face and they would be on their ass. If someone did that to me. So...
Brooke Suchomel: 17:42
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 17:42
I was just so outraged. And I was like, Kristy, think about the fire you're playing with. Thank God Kaykay wasn't in that club.
Brooke Suchomel: 17:51
Hauled across the room.
Kaykay Brady: 17:53
I would be arrested. She would be in the hospital. The Baby-sitters Club would be destroyed.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:01
Yeah, yeah. No, for me, it was like, Kristy the business woman would not do this.
Kaykay Brady: 18:07
Yes, exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:08
She would not jeopardize her business by doing this.
Kaykay Brady: 18:10
Where is the business woman? Where did she go?
Brooke Suchomel: 18:12
Right. So in a way, I almost have to be like, okay, this was supposed to be the last book in the Baby-sitters Club series, right? There was supposed to be, originally, it was going to be four books.
Kaykay Brady: 18:24
Ah, good point.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:25
And this was going to be the end. And clearly, by the time that the writing of book four came around, they knew that this was going to be a longer series. That's why Dawn comes in, in book four. Because the next book is going to be the first of the Dawn-centered books.
Kaykay Brady: 18:44
I love it.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:45
So we get to learn more about Dawn, who is like the anti-Kristy in a lot of ways, as I remember her. Like, it's been a long time since I read it, but I remember being like, oh, Dawn and Kristy are, like, photo negatives of one another. But it just seems, like, was this a rush job? Like…
Kaykay Brady: 19:04
Something like that. I totally agree. It has a little bit, now that you remind me of that, I think, you know, it does have a little bit of that season finale that you didn't see coming, or you know, some episodes got cut or something. And the writer has to slam into the season finale immediately, and doesn't really know how they're going to establish the end of the series. And so it's really awkward, and it's a little forced and the drama, it feels a little manufactured. So I definitely felt that.
Brooke Suchomel: 19:35
And it's interesting how much of it could have just been neutralized if it wasn't for the foot stomping, and then the weird shoving napkins in each other's faces. Again, that's something that I can absolutely see happening just not in that setting. Not i that setting. Not in the context of...
Kaykay Brady: 19:58
When the stakes are so high, basically.
Brooke Suchomel: 19:59
Yeah, the roles that they were playing because --
Kaykay Brady: 20:01
The stakes are really high.
Brooke Suchomel: 20:02
-- they just got done with, like, fending off this outside threat from the Baby-sitters Agency. And they did it --
Kaykay Brady: 20:10
Yes!
Brooke Suchomel: 20:11
-- with a focus on quality, right, the quality of care they provide. There is no way that two months later, they would be throwing all of that into, you know, into jeopardy by behaving in this way, at this time and location. So, I guess I'm looking at it from, like, a publishing business standpoint and looking at it from, like, being in the minds of the author and the editor, like they were probably trying to figure out at that time, "How are we going to expand this series?" They were probably trying to come up with all new, like, publication schedules and marketing. And like, I think the business of the publication of this series probably affected the quality of this particular book. And again, it's Mary Anne.
Kaykay Brady: 21:03
Yeah, it's a really good point. And looking at, looking at it from a psychological perspective, you think, "These kids might need meds!" Because it's just so jarring the way that the first three books basically are constantly showing you and telling you how important this club is for each person, and how much they all cherish it, and then it's just, everybody just blows it to shit.
Brooke Suchomel: 21:30
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 21:31
You know, it's, it's just such extreme behavior that it either doesn't ring true, or you would be like, "All right, time for an assessment."
Brooke Suchomel: 21:39
Yeah. But with, you know, with Mary Anne, I think, because you can see her perspective, I do think that it does a good job of working out the sort of turmoil that she has of like, how to reach out even when you've been wronged. Like, she knows that she's done things that she feels bad about. But she also knows that she's been treated poorly, as well. And so she's trying to figure out, "How do I stand up for myself and advocate for myself while also maintaining these relationships that are very important to me?" And so you see her try to work out, well, she wants to reach out but she's not quite sure how, and then she does, you know, she makes that contact with Claudia. And then something else sets off things with Claudia and her again, with the whole "my Mary Anne," you know, the jealousy there that comes through with Mimi, but you see how she's trying to figure it out. And you also see how she's like, "But I am also going to take this opportunity to make Kristy jealous," because again, that's the closest relationship that she has. And so that's the one she's going to focus on the most, you know, like, she's just gonna have more extreme feelings towards Kristy.
Kaykay Brady: 23:06
Yeah. So I don't know if now is the time to get into this, but I need to get into, at some point, the Dawn, Mary Anne, Kristy, Shillaber twins triangle.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:19
The quadrangle, or what, would it be a quintangle? A quintangle there.
Kaykay Brady: 23:24
It's a quouple? It's a quouple.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:25
Yeah, the Shillaber twins, when they come up, I just see them as the twins in The Shining.
Kaykay Brady: 23:32
Yeah!
Brooke Suchomel: 23:33
That are just silent in the matching dresses.
Kaykay Brady: 23:35
"Come play with us, Kristy. For-eva, and eva, and eva." Yeah, no, it's great. But okay, here's the young lesbian's read on this. The only way that this shit made sense to me is that Kristy and Mary Anne are in love. Just the extent of the emotion, and I mean, there were just so many quotes in here where I was so confused at the language, which patently seemed to be romantic language. Like, the way that Mary Anne is even describing people, you know, she's describing a lot of the female characters kind of sexually or sensually...
Brooke Suchomel: 24:17
Like, are they pretty? Like the first thing with Dawn was like, "Well, Dawn wasn't pretty," like, she was trying to... "She wasn't pretty, but she was pleasant."
Kaykay Brady: 24:24
Yeah, pleasant looking. It was like, "a pleasant looking blonde with hair down to her rear." There were just all these words and phrases that really seemed like subtext to me. "Kristy glanced up and saw me. She began talking even more earnestly, then she gestured for the twins to lean toward her, and she made a great show of whispering in their ears and laughing loudly." Like, to me, that is all very flirtatious language, and totally rings true. So if I ever could understand this level of drama, it's in that context. As I started getting older and I started having romantic relationships with women, which got really fucking complicated, and were always on the DL. They were always hidden. And they were almost more on fire and emotional because it was hidden. And, oh my god, so what truly pushed me over the edge was when Dawn suggested they watch a movie in her room. That is the oldest lesbian trick in the book. In the book. You got a TV in your room, you got a VCR, you just go down to Blockbuster, and you rent yourself Personal Best. And you invite your best friend over and, you know, boom, your relationship is to the next level.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:41
Huh, interesting. See, I had a similar but slightly different take on it.
Kaykay Brady: 25:46
Yeah, please share.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:47
My take is that, so, I noticed how Mary Anne is so focused on, like, for instance, Stacey is glamorous. And, you know, she says, this is one of my favorite lines...
Kaykay Brady: 26:01
Oh, this is describing Stacey? I think I remember this, too.
Brooke Suchomel: 26:04
Yeah, describing Stacey and how she, like, she wants to be Stacey. You know, she sees that Stacey is glamorous, Stacey gets attention. Stacey, quote, "often creates a sensation." And she says that, like, she wants to go to school wearing Stacey's clothes. She'd like to create a sensation. "Well, half of me would, the other half would be too shy to want to attract any attention." Like, to me, it seems like Mary Anne is looking at other girls through the lens of, "Who do I want to be?" Because she doesn't actually exist, I think, for anyone, even herself, to an extent, as an individual. She's like...
Kaykay Brady: 26:45
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 26:46
She exists to her father as an idea, right? Like...
Kaykay Brady: 26:50
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 26:50
She isn't even, I mean, I was thinking about it, and I think that they definitely mean to draw, Ann M. Martin means to draw connections here between how Mary Anne's dad treats Mary Anne and how Mrs. Prezzioso treats Jenny, right?
Kaykay Brady: 27:09
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:10
But like, with Jenny Prezzioso, she's treated as an object. She's like a doll to be dressed up. She is, you know, the quote, unquote...
Kaykay Brady: 27:21
"She's my- the little angel."
Brooke Suchomel: 27:22
Yeah, the little angel.
Kaykay Brady: 27:23
"Little angel, straight from heaven."
Brooke Suchomel: 27:25
Right. So like, again, she's she's not treated as an individual. Because as an individual, she doesn't want to wear these frilly clothes. She wants to run around in like, quote, unquote, "play clothes." And like --
Kaykay Brady: 27:39
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:39
-- paint and get messy. Like, that's what she wants to do. But her mom won't allow that, won't see that. So she exists as an object. And I'm like, Mary Anne doesn't even exist as an object. Like, she is just, she is a role to her father.
Kaykay Brady: 27:58
Yeah. Definitely.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:59
Like, he doesn't even know what grade she's in.
Kaykay Brady: 28:01
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 28:02
You know, they don't even have any conversations. Like, her dad talks at her about, "Well can you believe that they didn't see that this was obvious grand larceny?" Like even, even the choice of charge. Like, what 12 year old even knows what grand larceny is, you know?
Kaykay Brady: 28:19
I know. It's ridiculous.
Brooke Suchomel: 28:20
So, so it's like, I think that Mary Anne is looking at the other girls that she sees, and is seeing, like, how they express themselves as an individual. How they're different. And she's like, trying to kind of cast herself in those roles, because she's trying to figure out who she is. Because she's never been allowed to.
Kaykay Brady: 28:43
Yeah, totally. I think that can also be read as- so a lot of queer kids, when they're younger and they are not out yet, they truly don't know who they are. And they sometimes mistake romantic feelings for other people as wanting to be them. So this is like a really well known phenomenon for queer kids. I mean, it's the whole like, Single White Female -- I mean, that's a horseshit movie, very problematic. But, you know, it’s that whole…
Brooke Suchomel: 29:14
"You're a persona I want to try on."
Kaykay Brady: 29:16
Yeah, right. And so all I'm saying is, I think, you know, God, I love to read lesbian subtext into everything, because it's truly the most 80s experience for me, because that's what you had to do in the 80s. There were no lesbians. So you had to find 'em where you could.
Brooke Suchomel: 29:32
There were no lesbians in the 80s, until the Gay Agenda came around and turned all these kids queer.
Kaykay Brady: 29:37
Well, none that you could see. None in books, none in movies, none in film, right?
Brooke Suchomel: 29:40
Right, right.
Kaykay Brady: 29:41
So you have to, like, scrape it up yourself. I mean, this was way before Xena and even Xena was subtext for us. Shit, they didn't even give us a real lesbian in Xena. But, you know, so I do love to read old books that way.
Brooke Suchomel: 29:56
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 29:57
But to me, it's certainly there in Ann Martin's language, the way that she --
Brooke Suchomel: 30:04
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 30:05
-- you know, and it's interesting to me when you say that Ann Martin was the Mary Anne figure, because, you know, I'm seeing the most subtext in the Mary Anne figure and if that's the closest to Ann Martin, that makes a whole hell of a lot of sense.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:20
You're seeing it more in Mary Anne than in Kristy.
Kaykay Brady: 30:22
Yeah, interesting enough. Because, you know, Kristy, there's a lot of, there's, there's just a lot of overt things you could joke about and say, "Haha, what a lezbo." You know, about the softball team, Kristy's Krushers, and, you know, she doesn't care about boys and things like that. But in Mary Anne, you get a very deep psychological, closeted queer perspective that, I get that flavor.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:49
So Kristy, it's text. It's unspoken text, it's unacknowledged text.
Kaykay Brady: 30:55
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:55
But it's text.
Kaykay Brady: 30:56
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:57
Whereas Mary Anne, you're picking up more of the reading between the lines?
Kaykay Brady: 31:00
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:00
Yeah, I guess the way that I saw it, as I- and I certainly saw, to me, it was a pretty obvious queer explanation for the behavior that we're seeing from Kristy, which is that, I see it more as Kristy is in love with Mary Anne.
Kaykay Brady: 31:13
Ah, interesting.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:14
And that it's an unrequited...
Kaykay Brady: 31:14
And so she's so fucking outraged.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:16
Right. And like, Mary Anne is not aware of it and just is not picking up on that at all. Just, you know, sees Kristy as like, really her only friend.
Kaykay Brady: 31:25
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:26
And Kristy, you know, first she feels betrayed by Mary Anne because Mary Anne is the one who really sort of, like, when the fight starts, she's like, "I'm gonna burn this entire place down." Right? And she's the one that is like...
Kaykay Brady: 31:42
Burn it down, Mary Anne!
Brooke Suchomel: 31:43
Yeah, I mean --
Kaykay Brady: 31:44
Hash tag burn it down, Mary Anne.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:46
-- when they have this fight in chapter one, they each aim right at each girl's --
Kaykay Brady: 31:54
Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:55
-- specific insecurities.
Kaykay Brady: 31:56
Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:58
Kristy as a, quote, "bossy know it all." Claudia as a, quote, "stuck up job hog." Which kind of implies, because it, it comes off of them being like, "Well, you've done it this time, and this time, and this time, you've stolen the job for like, so many times," kind of implies that she's dumb.
Kaykay Brady: 32:17
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 32:17
Which we know that she's really sensitive to.
Kaykay Brady: 32:19
Yeah, that's her Achilles heel right there.
Brooke Suchomel: 32:21
Yeah. And at the end, she says, "I'm sorry I'm careless and forgetful." Like, again, playing at her area of internal sensitivity. Stacey is, you know, described as a conceited snob, and then Mary Anne brings her diabetes into it.
Kaykay Brady: 32:37
Shit!
Brooke Suchomel: 32:37
Where it's like, "Damn, Mary Anne!"
Kaykay Brady: 32:39
"Damn, we just had a whole book about this!"
Brooke Suchomel: 32:42
Ugh!
Kaykay Brady: 32:42
"Didn't you learn anything?"
Brooke Suchomel: 32:43
Right. So that's, you know, going right at Stacey's sensitivity. And then obviously, Mary Anne, you know, is referred to as a shy little baby. And that's the thing that she spends the rest of this book obviously stewing over and trying to resolve that. And she's the one that is just like, "You're all this, this, this and this," and leaves.
Kaykay Brady: 33:07
Mic drop.
Brooke Suchomel: 33:08
She totally dropped the mic. So I think Kristy, and you see it, like, Kristy is described throughout when you see her as like, her eyes are bugging out, her jaw's like gonna hit the floor. Like, she's just, like, in shock --
Kaykay Brady: 33:21
She's so stunned.
Brooke Suchomel: 33:22
-- at what she's seeing from Mary Anne, because again, I think Mary Anne was like, was this role for her too. She was like a certain, you know, what she knew about Mary Anne is not what she's seeing now. And she's also seeing her strike up a friendship with someone new, which we know, you know, Mary Anne says like, she's never really had any friends, like any friend that she's ever had has come through Kristy. And we know from previous books that like these girls were all sort of brought together by their parents as a means of giving Mary Anne the kind of support structure that she would need in the absence of her mother. So she's never actually like, made a friend in her life. And so Kristy feels really threatened by that. And I think, you know, to me, that's where that sort of extreme reaction, and the fact that it is aimed so intently at Mary Anne, is coming from, is that sort of duality of "I'm going through a lot as almost a teenage girl and my world is kind of being turned upside down." Plus, what I think is that pretty clear, queer subtext and what seems to be like this sort of long simmering crush that Kristy seems to have on Mary Anne.
Kaykay Brady: 34:44
Yeah. I think it's also so cool that a YA book is rich enough to facilitate all of these different kinds of reads. You know, I think it says a lot about how effective Ann Martin is as an author, that, you know, in some ways, it's kind of the- my own psychology I'm bringing to the read, where I can interpret things in a particular way. And so, you know, it just really sort of tugs on all of those things that happened to you in the 80s. And there's just a lot of different ways that you could interpret the text that really jive with your own experience, which is pretty cool and really says something about, you know, the way that this book was perhaps deeper than other kids books. You know, you're not reading Ramona Quimby and, like, having a queer theory conversation.
Brooke Suchomel: 35:43
Although...
Kaykay Brady: 35:43
Although!
Brooke Suchomel: 35:44
Why not?
Kaykay Brady: 35:46
I know.
Brooke Suchomel: 35:47
There's a gap there that perhaps we need to fill. I have to say, Ramona, though, is like, ah, there has to be a significant overlap between people who grew up loving The Baby-sitters Club, and people who got their first sort of addiction to children's literature through the work of Beverly Cleary.
Kaykay Brady: 36:13
Well, that's true, but how does that timeline work? Because I was obsessed with the Ramona Quimby books, but then I was a little too old for The Baby-sitters Club.
Brooke Suchomel: 36:20
Ramona Quimby books came out much earlier. I need to, like, go back and revisit all of the Ramona books, because goddamn did I ever love them. I still, like, I remember being in kindergarten and thinking about, "I wish that my name had a 'Q' in it, so that I could draw the 'Q' in my name to look like a cat."
Kaykay Brady: 36:43
That's like when I was so obsessed with Laverne and Shirley that I honestly earnestly had a campaign to get my mom to sew squiggly "L"s on all of my shirts. And I would, all I would drink was Pepsi and milk.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:01
Separately?
Kaykay Brady: 37:02
No, together.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:03
Ugh. That's a thing?
Kaykay Brady: 37:04
Your face! I wish the world could see that face you just made. It was, it was pure disgust. Yes. This was what Laverne and Shirley drank, exclusively. Pepsi and milk together. Try it. See if you'll vomit. You might.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:18
Did you?
Kaykay Brady: 37:19
No, I- it was so gross.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:22
Right. But I can imagine you, like, choking it down anyway --
Kaykay Brady: 37:25
Yes.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:25
-- because that's what they drank. But like --
Kaykay Brady: 37:26
Yes.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:26
-- "I hate this so...," but did you hate it so much?
Kaykay Brady: 37:28
It was really gross, but I just loved Laverne so much. I would do anything for Laverne. I would choke down Pepsi and milk every day for Laverne.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:40
Oh, that is true love. Seriously.
Kaykay Brady: 37:42
But my mom would absolutely not sew "L"s into my shirts.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:46
Ah, I'm so sorry.
Kaykay Brady: 37:48
If our younger listeners don't know Laverne and Shirley, it's something you should look into.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:53
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 37:53
Quality.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:54
I watched Laverne and Shirley because it was on like, maybe it was WGN.
Kaykay Brady: 38:00
Yeah, it was some sort of syndicated...yeah. Would you sing the theme song with me?
Brooke Suchomel: 38:06
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 38:07
"Schlemiel! Schlimazel! Hasenpfeffer Incorporated!"
Brooke Suchomel: 38:12
"We're gonna do it!"
Kaykay Brady: 38:13
"On your mark, get set, let's go now. Got a dream and we just know now, we're gonna make our dreams come true."
Brooke Suchomel: 38:23
"Doin' it our way!"
Kaykay Brady: 38:25
"Nothing's gonna turn us back now. Straight ahead and on the track now. We're gonna make our dreams come true."
Brooke Suchomel: 38:33
"And we'll do it our way, yes, our way. Make all our dreams come true."
Kaykay Brady: 38:40
"And we'll do it our way, yes, our way. Make all our dreams come true."
Brooke Suchomel: 38:48
"For me and you." That was beautiful.
Kaykay Brady: 38:53
Yeah, we might cut that, but it just felt so good.
Brooke Suchomel: 38:56
So much good stuff. Yeah. So Beezus and Ramona actually came out in 1955.
Kaykay Brady: 39:04
What?
Brooke Suchomel: 39:05
Yeah, and then the, you know, the main series of Ramona -- Ramona the Brave, Ramona and Her Father, Ramona and Her Mother, blah, blah, blah. So Ramona the Pest came out in 1968, then Ramona the Brave in '75, and then Ramona and Her Father '77, Ramona and Her Mother '79, Ramona Quimby, Age 8 in '81, and Ramona Forever in '84. There was also a Ramona's World, but that came out in '99, and so I missed that one.
Kaykay Brady: 39:36
What a long arc.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:37
Yeah. Beverly Cleary had, you know, numerous series that she wrote. So she had like, the Ralph S. Mouse series...
Kaykay Brady: 39:48
Oh sure, I read that too.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:50
And she had Henry Huggins, who I just knew as a character in Ramona's books.
Kaykay Brady: 39:56
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:57
Beverly Cleary is still kickin'.
Kaykay Brady: 39:59
Really?
Brooke Suchomel: 40:00
Kaykay Brady: 40:02
Wow. 104, that's fantastic.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:06
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 40:06
Mazel tov, Miss Cleary.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:09
Seriously. I think that, you know, the thing that both Beverly Cleary's books and Ann M. Martin's books have in common is they don't patronize the reader. Both authors really, to me, seem to understand their audience. And it's like, I felt when I was reading those books, that they were written by somebody who understood me, and understood my life, and understood the things that interested me and saw me as, like, a person and not as a child.
Kaykay Brady: 40:47
Yeah, it's so interesting that you say that because I think about, you know, Alice in Wonderland, for example. And- which was a very famous children's book, you know, before this sort of new type of children's book.
Brooke Suchomel: 41:01
Oh, long before, yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 41:01
Which is more like a children's book written by adults, not in a child's voice. And you think about Alice, and she's like, the- what are he- Prezzios? What's that name? What is their name?
Brooke Suchomel: 41:12
Jenny Prezzioso.
Kaykay Brady: 41:14
Yeah, Prezzioso. So it's like Alice in Wonderland is like, the Prezzioso's child. You know, she- she's just this kind of frilly, female object. So it's, it's really interesting to think about the YA books that came later, really getting into the mind and the voice of a child in a way the child might feel seen, versus a child might just feel like an object --
Brooke Suchomel: 41:38
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 41:38
-- or a vehicle for the plot.
Brooke Suchomel: 41:40
Yeah. I mean, that's a complicated one. Lewis Carroll was, uh...
Kaykay Brady: 41:46
Oh shit.
Brooke Suchomel: 41:47
There's, there's some speculation as to what was going on with that particular book, and... Based on somebody, written for a young girl that he had a particular affinity for. So...
Kaykay Brady: 41:58
Yeah. Right. Yes, I have, I have read some of that shit.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:02
Yeah...
Kaykay Brady: 42:02
But I guess, I'm trying to think, I mean, I guess that was the one that just popped in my head, because it feels like a real objectified child.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:09
Totally.
Kaykay Brady: 42:09
But then again, you know, think about Little Women. You know, Little Women was, what, written in, like, the late 1800s? And that felt very voiced as the child, too.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:20
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 42:21
Like, I felt very seen reading Little Women, but it felt unique.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:25
Right, and maybe it has something to do with who the author is. Being written from, you know, the female perspective, right?
Kaykay Brady: 42:33
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:33
Again, I think that there's really something to that, and being focused on character development, as opposed to just, like, plot for the sake of plot. And then when you are so focused on the plot, that the characters are secondary --
Kaykay Brady: 42:46
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:46
-- as opposed to being so focused on the characters that the plot is secondary, like...
Kaykay Brady: 42:50
Yeah, that's true too.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:51
Just that sort of way that you can identify and sort of get to the truth of the individuals. But a lot of the books that, you know, I read at the time, too, you know, so many books weren't episodic --
Kaykay Brady: 43:04
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 43:04
-- in the way that this series was, and didn't just keep coming back to the same people again and again. And so the way that they get flushed out, like, you have to get to know them. I mean, just thinking about it as an author, if you weren't constantly writing more complexities, and really getting into the psyche of the characters you're writing about, like, it would be a grind, just --
Kaykay Brady: 43:26
Yes.
Brooke Suchomel: 43:27
-- such a grind to just have to churn out book after book.
Kaykay Brady: 43:30
Plot, plot, plot, plot.
Brooke Suchomel: 43:31
Right, if you felt like you've already said everything that there is to say about these characters.
Kaykay Brady: 43:35
Mm hmm. You know, I will say, the format really grabs you. Because I'm four books in and it really took probably to book three to where, you know, I felt I was starting to get emotionally connected to what these characters feel, believe, think. And I think it's the strength of the episodic nature of the book, because, you know, you pick it up, you read book one, you put it down, right? You're, you're kind of- they're in your life longer.
Brooke Suchomel: 44:06
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 44:06
And that's really interesting, versus just sitting down and reading, you know, a 200 page novel.
Brooke Suchomel: 44:12
Yeah. And as an author, it gives you the flexibility to show and not tell.
Kaykay Brady: 44:17
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 44:17
You know? Because real live people don't come up to you and say, "Hi, I'm Brooke. This is what motivates me as a human being. This is what I care about. This is how I respond to different situations. And this is what I want in my life. Here's my fatal flaw, you know, like, here's my Achilles heel." People don't do that in real life. You discover that about people, in like, the time you spend...
Kaykay Brady: 44:45
Right, over a long time and connection with them.
Brooke Suchomel: 44:46
Yeah, and so the author- and particularly if the author knows that they have that time to do that, then that gives an author more flexibility. Again, it was interesting that it's the book that was initially meant to be the final book in the series, but that instead, due to the popularity of the books that came before it, becomes sort of the transition point of the series. Where they bring in a new character who becomes, you know, one of the foundational characters. It's interesting that like, you kind of see a lot of those characters' motivations, and just the way that you would normally expect them to behave, get blown up. But I guess, people do that in real life, too. People go against others' expectations of them all the time. And in a way, you know, that's what Mary Anne is doing. Even just talking about it now, it's like, well, is the fact that Kristy is behaving in a manner that is so contradictory to the way that we have seen her behave until this point, is that reflective of the fact that we can see explicitly, and it is stated by Mary Anne, that she is behaving in a manner that is very different to the manner that she has behaved until this point. That she is, like, reaching out to people. That she is taking initiative. That she, you know, is like, seizing responsibility and being proactive for the first time. Maybe this is just another reflection of that.
Kaykay Brady: 46:30
Yeah. I think that's true. Did you have any favorite 80s moments?
Brooke Suchomel: 46:35
To me, the most 80s moment was the handwriting of notes to friends --
Kaykay Brady: 46:40
Ah, yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 46:40
-- with special ink and elaborate folding techniques. Like, Mary Anne talks about how when she's writing the note to Claudia, you know, she gets out her peacock blue ink pen.
Kaykay Brady: 46:54
I remember that.
Brooke Suchomel: 46:55
Like, every- you know, you've got your special pen, and you probably write in a special way, depending on what the message is. And you fold it up so that it kind of, like, folds in on itself and then you decorate the outside of it. Did you do that?
Kaykay Brady: 47:09
That sounds nice. I absolutely did not.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:11
Probably not with the boys that you're punching in the face.
Kaykay Brady: 47:13
You're not doing that out on the football... I was punching faces.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:16
Punching 'em in the face with notes!
Kaykay Brady: 47:19
That was how we communicated. I'm imagining you know, the cameras in the nice cafeteria where Brooke is just gently decorating notes and then it's panning out to Kaykay punching someone in the face.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:30
Totally.
Kaykay Brady: 47:31
Some nice juxtaposition. No wonder we're friends. We really balance each other.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:36
Absolutely. What was your most 80s moment?
Kaykay Brady: 47:40
Okay, so first, Stacey's clothes in chapter one. I just wanted to read that.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:46
So good.
Kaykay Brady: 47:47
Oh, this is Mary Anne talking about Stacey's clothes. "Just once, I'd like to go to school wearing skin tight turquoise pants, Stacey's island shirt with the flamingos and toucans all over it, and maybe bright red hip hop sneakers."
Brooke Suchomel: 48:01
I want to wear that too.
Kaykay Brady: 48:02
I said, I wear that now. That is exactly how I dress now.
Brooke Suchomel: 48:05
You do, you do.
Kaykay Brady: 48:06
Just put a bow tie, just put a bow tie on it, and that's literally what I wear.
Brooke Suchomel: 48:11
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 48:12
So I loved it.
Brooke Suchomel: 48:13
We just need to get you the fluffy blonde mane to go with it.
Kaykay Brady: 48:17
Yeah. So that was a great 80s moment. And I guess I'm realizing that I am pretty 80s in 2020, pretty much exclusively. Who knew?
Brooke Suchomel: 48:26
Which makes you super on trend.
Kaykay Brady: 48:28
I guess.
Brooke Suchomel: 48:29
You know, the world is catching up to you. I had to put the book down when Mary Anne was describing Stacey's outfit. Because, okay, so I have told you that I have a lot of foundational moments in my life that are tied to The Baby-sitters Club.
Kaykay Brady: 48:48
Oh, right.
Brooke Suchomel: 48:48
One of them is the dog and bone earrings.
Kaykay Brady: 48:52
Ooh!
Brooke Suchomel: 48:54
Where Mary Anne describes how Stacey even has a pair of earrings where one of them is a dog and one of them is a bone. So I remember as a child, when I read about that, I put my book down on the waterbed that I slept in. Right? I had a frickin' waterbed. This is why I have...
Kaykay Brady: 49:13
What are you, the Queen of England? Waterbed?
Brooke Suchomel: 49:15
It's more like, clearly there was, like, a three for the price of one sale at, like, the name of --
Kaykay Brady: 49:21
At point they realized they were dangerous, and they were just giving them away, so your mom got 'em for free?
Brooke Suchomel: 49:24
-- yeah, the waterbed store in the basement of the mall, which was called, and I quote, "Strawberry Starship."
Kaykay Brady: 49:32
What? The- wait, the waterbed store was Strawberry Starship?
Brooke Suchomel: 49:38
It was called Strawberry Starship.
Kaykay Brady: 49:41
Somebody needs to put down the acid.
Brooke Suchomel: 49:43
Seriously! So much acid in the basement of Lindale Mall. And one day, everyone in the family got a waterbed, right? And so...
Kaykay Brady: 49:57
Damn, how was your back? Did you --
Brooke Suchomel: 49:58
Horrible!
Kaykay Brady: 49:59
-- did you have...
Brooke Suchomel: 50:00
I have... Do you know? To this day, to this day...
Kaykay Brady: 50:05
You basically slipped all of your discs --
Brooke Suchomel: 50:08
Seriously!
Kaykay Brady: 50:08
-- in childhood.
Brooke Suchomel: 50:09
I have waterbed-inflicted scoliosis. Okay? I did not sleep in a normal-ass bed until I was in my dorm in college.
Kaykay Brady: 50:26
And you're like, "What's wrong with this bed?"
Brooke Suchomel: 50:27
Oh, it was so bad, so...
Kaykay Brady: 50:29
"I'm not undulating."
Brooke Suchomel: 50:31
Thank God that waterbeds have gone away. Hopefully they never make a comeback, they're terrible. However, I remember sitting my book down on my waterbed, getting up, going to tell my mom who was in the kitchen making lunch, "Holy shit" -- obviously, I didn't say "holy shit" at the time, but like, holy shit -- "this is the coolest thing I've ever heard of." And I remember my mom being like, "Uh huh." And then I just went back, and I was just like, wait, I thought this would, like, blow my mom's mind. Like, just, can you even conceive of such a glorious thing as a set of earrings where one is a dog and one is a bone? However, I thought it was Claudia. So to this day --
Kaykay Brady: 51:16
Ah, you misremembered it.
Brooke Suchomel: 51:17
Yeah, I- totally. I thought that that was Claudia, because it seems like such a Claudia thing to wear, right? Like, it seems like Claudia would wear those earrings, but Stacey wore them.
Kaykay Brady: 51:25
Was this like a Christmas Story-level thing happening for you? Was this the rifle? That you desperately --
Brooke Suchomel: 51:32
Kaykay Brady: 51:33
Yeah, right. Was this that- where you wanted it so badly and you thought you were going to get it for Christmas?
Brooke Suchomel: 51:37
No, I mean, I always... So I would go to Claire's. Every time that I would go to Claire's, because, of course, what do you do when you're growing up in Iowa? You go to the mall.
Kaykay Brady: 51:45
You go to Claire's.
Brooke Suchomel: 51:47
Well, yeah, I mean, you go to the mall, because, you know, most of the time, it's either too damn hot or too damn cold to be outside.
Kaykay Brady: 51:53
Right. Yes.
Brooke Suchomel: 51:54
And in the you know, the few months of the year when you could be outside, I had severe allergies. So I'm an indoor kid.
Kaykay Brady: 51:59
The mall it was!
Brooke Suchomel: 51:59
You go to the mall.
Kaykay Brady: 52:00
Go shop for waterbeds.
Brooke Suchomel: 52:01
Right. And I would go to Claire's, because that's what you did, and I would always look for mismatching earrings. And I did this for years, Kaykay. For years.
Kaykay Brady: 52:12
I mean, couldn't you just buy whole sets and mismatch them yourself?
Brooke Suchomel: 52:16
You would think, right? But I was just like, I don't know what it was, I was just dreaming of that set. That is still -- the dog and bone earrings -- when I think of what's cool from a jewelry perspective, it's in the top 10.
Kaykay Brady: 52:30
I'm taking notes.
Brooke Suchomel: 52:32
Thank you.
Kaykay Brady: 52:32
Christmas is coming up. All right, so here is a fun 80s question for you. What was on your walls as a kid?
Brooke Suchomel: 52:40
Oh, so as a kid, my room was decorated in bunnies, because I wanted a dog but I couldn't have a dog, because my dad was allergic, and so I used to always, like, fantasize, "Well, maybe I could get a bunny. And if I just decorate everything in bunnies, because bunnies are also, like, small and fluffy and they seem like they might cuddle and maybe I can teach it tricks." It went nowhere.
Kaykay Brady: 53:01
There's something really -- I don't know if it's sad or something to celebrate that, you know, your walls were a compromise on your dreams.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:10
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 53:10
I don't know what to make of that yet.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:15
So the room was like- so I had all of these like bunny figures everywhere, but I didn't have them on the walls. On the walls was just kind of, like, random things. Like, around this time, I was really into the, like, the red and black and white theme. And I played the piano, and so I still remember it was like a picture that I got at some -- maybe it was Spencer's? It was some store at the mall that sold posters and it was a poster of, like, a single red rose laying across piano keys.
Kaykay Brady: 53:47
That is 100% Spencer's.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:49
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 53:49
I can't imagine you found it anywhere else.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:51
It seems too classy for Spencer's, though.
Kaykay Brady: 53:53
I don't know, Spencer's had the sort of female posters.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:56
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 53:56
So it was like the female posters were things like that, maybe some unicorns or, you know, a black and white of a couple kissing. And then the left side was sort of, you know, all the thrasher posters or, you know, breasts and beer steins and marijuana leaves.
Brooke Suchomel: 54:12
Right. Yeah, I mean Spencer's did, I guess, have a little bit for everyone.
Kaykay Brady: 54:16
It did. There was definitely some female classier pieces.
Brooke Suchomel: 54:23
So classy. Get your classy posters along with your, like, fart prevention pills.
Kaykay Brady: 54:29
"Certified Muff Diver."
Brooke Suchomel: 54:31
Your key chains in the shape of a poop, which I may or may not have had. Yeah. So that, and then, because I liked red and black, my mom got me these like theater masks that were like --
Kaykay Brady: 54:46
Oh, like the smile and frown?
Brooke Suchomel: 54:48
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 54:49
That was so big in the 90s. Holy shit.
Brooke Suchomel: 54:51
Yeah, and they had like red and black feathers attached to them.
Kaykay Brady: 54:55
Oh my god. My sister had like 50 of these.
Brooke Suchomel: 54:58
And here's the thing. Sorry, mom. They terrified me. I didn't actually like them.
Kaykay Brady: 55:04
So you were just suffering on a waterbed, being physically and psychologically tortured.
Brooke Suchomel: 55:12
Right, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kaykay Brady: 55:13
The only thing that gave you relief were the bunnies --
Brooke Suchomel: 55:16
Right, my brass bunny sculptures.
Kaykay Brady: 55:17
-- that weren't even the animals that you wanted.
Brooke Suchomel: 55:22
Do you see why I read so much? What about you? Oh wait, I mean, I'm sure you're gonna lay down some serious knowledge with what you had on your walls. I'm excited.
Kaykay Brady: 55:34
I mean, it's probably not surprising. It was- so it was all Yankees, New York Yankees posters. I was born in the Bronx, and I was born like 10 blocks from Yankee Stadium...
Brooke Suchomel: 55:46
Hence why you would punch boys in the face at lunchtime?
Kaykay Brady: 55:49
That's correct. That's correct. And so it was just Yankees posters everywhere. I love Don Mattingly. Oh my god, I was obsessed with Don Mattingly. And I also- I was obsessed with Cagney and Lacey. And I mean, there was no internet so you couldn't like get a Cagney and Lacey poster. But I had gone into the TV Guide, which used to be a magazine, a physical printout, and I had cut out the tiny little pictures that they sometimes would put next to, you know, "Cagney and Lacey, 9pm Tuesday," and they would just be a tiny little black and white picture of Cagney and Lacey. So I cut out like 30 of those and they were on my wall. And then --
Brooke Suchomel: 56:36
Did you make them into a collage that when you stepped back, you saw a big thing of Cagney or Lacey?
Kaykay Brady: 56:42
That's what you would do. I was not that talented or creative. No way. They were just haphazardly stuck up on the wall.
Brooke Suchomel: 56:48
Well, hey -- now I'm getting ideas for Christmas.
Kaykay Brady: 56:52
Wow. I couldn't- whoa. It'd be one of those, you know, Magic Eye posters. You gotta relax your eyes to see Chris Cagney writ large. And then the coup de grace was that I had a picture of the first female commander brigadier at West Point. I had a picture of her.
Brooke Suchomel: 57:11
Who didn't?
Kaykay Brady: 57:12
She was a sensation!
Brooke Suchomel: 57:14
That was like the Cheryl Tiegs poster of the 80s.
Kaykay Brady: 57:17
Well, for- for me, yes. Yes. Because at that time, I wanted to go to West Point. That was my plan, and/or become a cop.
Brooke Suchomel: 57:29
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 57:30
I mean, all of my uncles were cops. Irish, born in the Bronx. It was like, cop or fireman, those are your two choices.
Brooke Suchomel: 57:36
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 57:37
So there you have it. It was just no surprise when I came out to my friends.
Brooke Suchomel: 57:41
Right, everybody was stunned. Stunned.
Kaykay Brady: 57:46
"What?!" I know I said this in the last podcast, but it's true. They were stunned.
Brooke Suchomel: 57:52
Oh, man, what did you have for what they were fighting? I mean, besides the obvious.
Kaykay Brady: 57:59
I had "stultifying gender norms."
Brooke Suchomel: 58:02
Mm hmm.
Kaykay Brady: 58:02
And "unrequited love."
Brooke Suchomel: 58:05
Aww.
Kaykay Brady: 58:06
Which I think- that kind of went into all of the plots.
Brooke Suchomel: 58:10
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 58:10
You know, this sense of people, Mary Anne and others fighting to kind of be who they are not be perceived as an object. And yeah, there was just a lot of unrequited love and not understanding what's going on for you and not understanding what you want. I mean, it just was a lot of that through all the relationships, which --
Brooke Suchomel: 58:33
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 58:33
-- were kind of highlighted in this strange Parent Trap situation in the end.
Brooke Suchomel: 58:39
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 58:40
What did you have?
Brooke Suchomel: 58:42
Um, I had that they, you know, along with the obvious fighting each other, um, that they were also fighting pride.
Kaykay Brady: 58:52
Mm.
Brooke Suchomel: 58:53
You know, Mary Anne is trying to figure out, "How do I reach out to my friends to try to, like, resolve this? To make this better?" Like, they're all- all four of them are fighting their own pride, right?
Kaykay Brady: 59:07
That's true.
Brooke Suchomel: 59:08
Like, who's going to be the first one to reach out? Or if somebody does reach out, how are you going to respond? And it seems to me that ultimately the tool that they use to overcome that is humility. Your pride is your sort of self imposed blindness to yourself, right? It's like intentional blindness to yourself. Whereas humility is that- being honest with yourself. It doesn't mean being a doormat, which I think is the thing that Mary Anne is trying to resolve, like, how can she get her friends back together without continuing to be the doormat that she has really been her entire life? And so I think what this book is about is about how to find that balance between advocating for yourself while also supporting others and, like, nurturing your relationships. Like, how do you develop an appropriate level of vulnerability, which requires serious self awareness that you just don't have at 12 years old?
Kaykay Brady: 1:00:23
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:24
You're trying to form your own identity. So like, if your identity isn't formed yet, it's pretty hard for you to be fully self aware on how your actions impact others, and how you can resolve conflict without giving up your sense of self.
Kaykay Brady: 1:00:45
Yeah, that's so interesting. And as you're talking, and you- you make that really great point about sort of pride and humility, and finding your way from one to the other, it also strikes me that the best way to do that is to have a real understanding of what's going on for your friends.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:07
Mm hmm.
Kaykay Brady: 1:01:08
So you're not just thinking about what's going on for you, you're thinking about what's going on for your friends. Why is your friend acting that way, you know? You know your friend doesn't want to be lashing out and hurting others. So where are they coming from? And the interesting thing is that in a series that is all about this kind of understanding and empathy, it's missing in this book.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:27
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 1:01:28
Right? So that could have been the ending that made a shit ton of sense, where they all came to understand, oh, of course Kristy's feeling this way because of X, Y, and Z.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:39
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 1:01:40
And it's not there. So I think that's why it feels so half baked, because that would be the perfect way to end that, you know?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:49
Yeah, I thought the same. You know, I wrote down, like, the resolution is missing.
Kaykay Brady: 1:01:57
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:57
A way to actually truly resolve everything, which would be this acknowledgement of like, why Kristy was so over the top. However, do you do that at 12? You do not.
Kaykay Brady: 1:02:09
Yeah, you don't.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:02:10
You don't- like, you just- you don't have that self awareness. So that was me having to step back and say, you're expecting the sort of resolution that you would want to see from very healthy, mature friendships, you know, in your 30s and 40s, frankly.
Kaykay Brady: 1:02:32
Although, here's what I will say. The book does offer some of that --
Brooke Suchomel: 1:02:37
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 1:02:37
-- in earlier books in a way that does not seem developmentally appropriate for 12. It's just- and that's kind of one of the cool things about the books is I think it's challenging the 12 year olds for that next level of understanding.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:02:51
Absolutely.
Kaykay Brady: 1:02:52
Right? And so it's just interesting that it's there in some books and then it's not here on this one.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:02:57
Right. Yeah, I think that there just needed to be- what I think could have resolved everything in an appropriate way was some sort of acknowledgement from Kristy that she really went over the top.
Kaykay Brady: 1:03:11
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:03:12
Right? Where she's just like, "Sorry, I really shouldn't have crunched down on your foot." Even just that.
Kaykay Brady: 1:03:18
"I shouldn't have physically assaulted you. My bad."
Brooke Suchomel: 1:03:21
Just acknowledge- and so for me it's more of a, like, looking at this from a, like, what are the messages that, reading this, that you take away from it? It just felt like there was a potentially dangerous message there, in that, if somebody goes into the realm of abuse, you know, 'cause like, growing up, man, all of this stuff, you know, where do you sit at lunch, that sort of sinking feeling of you're fighting with your friends, you don't know why, sometimes you get that --
Kaykay Brady: 1:03:53
And sometimes the smallest thing is blown up, just the stupid --
Brooke Suchomel: 1:03:56
Right? That's very true.
Kaykay Brady: 1:03:57
Yeah, that's the other thing that was interesting about this book, is I would more expect tiny little things to be perceived as huge slights but instead we had huge fucking slights being perceived as huge slights.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:04:08
Yeah, it was flipped, right?
Kaykay Brady: 1:04:08
It was flipped.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:04:11
And I can get why they were so angry at the fact that like, when they do lash out at each other, it is that specific targeting your specific insecurities that you get really good at know- like, there is something about a 12, 13 year old girl, about knowing what that button is to push.
Kaykay Brady: 1:04:30
Definitely.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:04:30
At least in my experience, it's like, you sort of sense what that person is really going to be set off and that's where you hone in on, so that's...
Kaykay Brady: 1:04:38
I think that was the hard thing for me reading this book. It just hurt my heart --
Brooke Suchomel: 1:04:43
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 1:04:43
-- to think that anybody would do that. But I guess kids do do that.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:04:49
For me, that was middle school.
Kaykay Brady: 1:04:50
Ugh.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:04:51
And so you're on the receiving end of it, but then you also kind of learn that --
Kaykay Brady: 1:04:55
Sure.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:04:56
-- like, you're conditioned that that's the way you're expected to behave, like, and so --
Kaykay Brady: 1:05:00
That's the power dynamic that's useful to participate in.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:05:02
-- you participate in that too, because it's like, that's what you're... I mean, it's just the psychological warfare of being a middle schooler. Particularly at this time. Particularly in the 80s and 90s, which, as we've said, were not empathetic times.
Kaykay Brady: 1:05:19
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:05:20
At all. The lessons that you would kind of get were on self esteem and like individualism, and like, "you're awesome," not "you impact others," with the fact that there isn't- there was a focus on self esteem, not on kindness. You know? And so...
Kaykay Brady: 1:05:38
That's just so hard to think about. You know, I --
Brooke Suchomel: 1:05:40
Yeah!
Kaykay Brady: 1:05:41
I think I really missed this, that I was, you know, primarily in male spaces.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:05:47
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 1:05:47
And it's just, yeah, it's just even hard to read about because it just feels so harmful.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:05:53
Yeah, it was. It was very toxic. And I think that's why when I got into high school, my freshman year of high school, all my friends were male. Like, I sort of transitioned into, like, "Okay, this whole thing is not working for me. I do not like it."
Kaykay Brady: 1:06:10
Yeah. And it's also really interesting to think about it from a sort of social justice lens in- what do they call it, they call it horizontal oppression, right? Where a targeted group, like women, for example, you know, they really target each other because of the lack of power.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:06:32
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 1:06:33
That the larger system denies, you know, the power that the larger system denies them. And so, you know, they're going to turn it on each other 10 times stronger. And I think it's so toxic, because I think that's the genesis of it, is this is a symptom of oppression.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:06:49
The system is set up for that, right?
Kaykay Brady: 1:06:51
Yeah, exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:06:51
Like, the patriarchy- you know, I went into this thinking, "what are they fighting?" Like, just because it's Mary Anne and I think Mary Anne's dad is just so awful —
Kaykay Brady: 1:07:01
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:07:02
-- like, “they're fighting the patriarchy.” And it's not explicit, but in a way they are.
Kaykay Brady: 1:07:07
Yeah!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:07:08
Because this is a way that- in this book, they're not fighting the patriarchy. They're fighting FOR the patriarchy --
Kaykay Brady: 1:07:15
Yeah, well, it's so internalized...
Brooke Suchomel: 1:07:16
-- in their way by turning on each other. Yeah!
Kaykay Brady: 1:07:18
It's so internalized that it's sort of these roles that they've all been plopped in, which you could trace all those roles back to the patriarchy, you know?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:07:26
Totally.
Kaykay Brady: 1:07:26
But it's, it's become the air that they breathe.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:07:30
Yeah, it's so pervasive, you don't even see it. Like, you are the frog that was born in the pot of slowly boiling water, so you don't even know any different.
Kaykay Brady: 1:07:39
Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:07:41
And yeah, good thing that's not a problem anymore!
Kaykay Brady: 1:07:45
Now, I do think a lot about --
Brooke Suchomel: 1:07:50
But at least we can talk about it!
Kaykay Brady: 1:07:51
Yeah, no, exactly. And I hope there's young people listening to this, that are probably still struggling with the same horseshit --
Brooke Suchomel: 1:07:59
And it's horseshit!
Kaykay Brady: 1:08:00
-- that can, can realize it's really painful, and it also is developmentally --
Brooke Suchomel: 1:08:06
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 1:08:06
-- happening at younger ages. And it does, I know, I do feel like it eases up when you get older.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:08:11
Yeah. Well, because you get the distance and you start to see, you're like, "no," like you said, "it's horseshit." And you don't actually buy into it, because it's not a natural order.
Kaykay Brady: 1:08:21
Yes.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:08:22
This is a construct, a power construct that is put in place by humans. And so, in that turn, can be rejected by humans.
Kaykay Brady: 1:08:31
Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:08:32
And so you can say, "I completely reject this system that you want me to operate in. And no, I don't have to elevate myself by trying to tear down other women," right? That that's not where my power comes from, that actually, where true power comes from is in linking up with others who are suffering from the same sort of oppression that you are and saying, "Fuck this noise, we're done with it."
Kaykay Brady: 1:09:04
Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:09:05
"You're not- we're not going to buy into it. We reject it." And it's a work in progress, y'all, but it's certainly- just the fact that people have conversations about it now. I mean, even the fact that there are like, LGBTQ alliances in schools now, like, all of these things are…
Kaykay Brady: 1:09:28
Oh, and kids are coming out, kids come out at such young ages. It's amazing.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:09:34
Which is so liberating, because those are years that they aren't spending- like, your time on earth is so limited and precious that, like, every day that you spend denying who you are, or not even denying who you are, but not being open with it. Like, that is time that is being sucked away from your life.
Kaykay Brady: 1:09:52
Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:09:53
And so- and that all builds up, right? And so, like, if you are, at 60 or 70, like, "Okay, I can't live this way anymore." You can't make up that lost time.
Kaykay Brady: 1:10:04
That's true.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:10:04
And now you've got to unpack all of the internalized trauma that you have been packing away for decades, and that's going to take up so much of your time that you have left. And so if you just reject that from the minute that you know it's bullshit, you are freeing yourself up in ways that you can't even imagine and you won't really even be able to appreciate until later when you can look back and say, "Thank god I didn't have that." Like, man, I wish I was- I wish that I could throw a punch back when I was 12 like you could. I wish I was out there fighting boys at lunchtime instead of like, fighting the psychological warfare of my fellow young girls, us just turning on each other, which was just so completely unnecessary. Completely unnecessary.
Kaykay Brady: 1:10:53
Although you probably, you know, learned a lot through that process.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:10:59
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 1:11:00
I mean, that process, that struggle really kind of makes you who you are as an adult.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:11:05
Totally.
Kaykay Brady: 1:11:06
You kind of gotta go through it. It sucks, and it's so hard. But it's, you know, it's how you learn all those really hard lessons about who you are, and what's a good friend, and, you know, what- what does being a friend mean to you?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:11:20
Yeah. But it requires you to be open about it, right?
Kaykay Brady: 1:11:24
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:11:24
It requires that humility. It requires that- you reaching out like, like, even like Mary Anne did at the end, where I thought it was good in the apology note that she wrote to Kristy, even though Kristy didn't read it, you know, and I don't think it's ever really like resolved, who got that note. But I do think it was good in that she said, "I'm really sorry about our fight. I'd like to make up and be friends again." And she says it was truthful. That she was sorry about the fight, no matter who started it or whose fault it was. So she's like, "I'm sorry about the fight. This is what I want." Not, like, her taking the full blame.
Kaykay Brady: 1:12:03
Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:12:03
And being like, admitting- like, you can admit that you messed up, but you can also hold other people to account for how they messed up. Like, if everybody can be open and truthful about that, that is how you get past both what you're dealing with at that moment, and perhaps things that you've been dealing with and not willing to face for many years. So at least in that sense, I thought that there was a good model there. Although Kristy could have stepped up her apology at the end. Pizza toast is not enough. But I think you know, there could be an argument that perhaps Kristy allowing Dawn to join the Baby-sitters Club is Kristy's form of apology.
Kaykay Brady: 1:12:47
Right. Especially knowing how probably hard that is for her.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:12:52
Absolutely. So we will see how that all plays out in the next book.
Kaykay Brady: 1:12:56
Woo! What's the next book?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:12:58
The next book is Dawn and the Impossible Three, so we get to see Dawn's perspective for the first time. We get to learn more about the health food.
Kaykay Brady: 1:13:11
Oh yeah, the health food.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:13:12
She's like- yeah, she loves her health food. She's from California, so she's blonde and she loves health food, because that's what California is. Just blondes eating salads.
Kaykay Brady: 1:13:23
I can't wait. Just blonde people eatin' salad.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:13:25
Yeah, but speaking of things that California is, can I just say, real quick, Crystal Tambourines would make a fantastic drag name. So Mary Anne's cover for the telephone game where she insults Kristy, "crystal tambourines," and then she just trails off. And I am like, that is beautiful.
Kaykay Brady: 1:13:50
"Please welcome to the stage Crystal Tambourines."
Brooke Suchomel: 1:13:54
And there's like a built in schtick.
Kaykay Brady: 1:13:58
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:13:58
Like, you know what Crystal Tambourines is serving and you are living for it, and I want to see that happen.
Kaykay Brady: 1:14:04
So is she throwing crystals into the audience? Because there could be some eye injuries.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:14:09
I'm actually seeing a tambourine, two tambourines, because it's plural. It's not "Crystal Tambourine," it's "Crystal Tambourines..."
Kaykay Brady: 1:14:16
Made of crystal?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:14:17
Made of crystal.
Kaykay Brady: 1:14:17
Oh damn!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:14:18
They get worked into the act. And it is flawless, and I love it. It's in my head.
Kaykay Brady: 1:14:26
Damn, that is great. Also some long Crystal Gayle hair, I see...
Brooke Suchomel: 1:14:30
Oh, yeah, the longest hair.
Kaykay Brady: 1:14:32
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:14:32
I mean, it's not like Dawn hair.
Kaykay Brady: 1:14:33
A little Crystal Gayle shout out.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:14:34
Yeah, so...
Kaykay Brady: 1:14:35
All right. I can't wait!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:14:37
Looking forward to talking about Dawn and the Impossible Three and seeing how the Baby-sitters Club expands from a group of four experienced babysitters to five experienced babysitters in our next episode. So until then...
Kaykay Brady: 1:14:54
Just keep sittin'. [theme song] What were you, the Queen of England?
