Sourced Transcript for BSFC #5: Dawn and the Impossible Three
Brooke Suchomel: 0:18
Welcome to The Baby-sitters Fight Club, where the first rule is you don't talk about Fight Club. Instead, you talk about the Baby-sitters Club series of books by Anne M. Martin. I'm Brooke Suchomel.
Kaykay Brady: 0:28
And I'm Kaykay Brady.
Brooke Suchomel: 0:30
And this week, Kaykay, we're traveling back to May 1987.
Kaykay Brady: 0:35
Oh yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 0:36
Here we go. U2's With or Without You and, what I think is just the audio definition of 1987, which is Cutting Crew's (I Just) Died In Your Arms...
Kaykay Brady: 0:49
Oh yeah, that's a true classic.
Brooke Suchomel: 0:52
That is 1987 in a nutshell right there, absolutely. Topped the Billboard Hot 100. The highest grossing movie of 1987, Beverly Hills Cop II, was released. As was a movie that I have confirmed with my husband is in his top 10 movies of all time, Ernest Goes to Camp.
Kaykay Brady: 1:13
Oh boy.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:14
And the final episode of The Joan Rivers Heterosexual Revue aired on May 15. And Pee Wee returned for the finale. A young up and coming stand up named Chris Rock performed a set.
Kaykay Brady: 1:31
Damn.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:32
And to close out the show, they TPd the set and covered it with shaving cream.
Kaykay Brady: 1:38
Oh.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:39
Which brings me so much joy.
Kaykay Brady: 1:41
It makes me want to go on sort of an 80s exploration of Ring and Run.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:49
Yes, Ding Dong Ditch.
Kaykay Brady: 1:51
Yeah, we- for a reason we only called it Ring and Run, but maybe it's Ding Dong Ditch in the Midwest?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:55
Uh huh.
Kaykay Brady: 1:56
And also flaming bags of dogshit. That was my personal favorite.
Brooke Suchomel: 2:02
That was your specialty.
Kaykay Brady: 2:03
That was my absolute specialty. You know, nobody picked up their dogshit, obviously. It was just like I said, dogs roaming the neighborhoods with no leashes and no identification of any form, shitting everywhere. So you just pick up that shit, put it in a bag, put it on somebody's porch, light it on fire, and then you Ring and Run.
Brooke Suchomel: 2:21
So you were really trying to send a message. This was all about environmental- you were driven by environmental reasons, and sanitation.
Kaykay Brady: 2:32
I like that. That's what we call, in the mental health field, a reframe. Yeah, that's a very strong reframe. But I thought at first you're gonna say you're trying to send a message like some sort of mafia message, which...
Brooke Suchomel: 2:44
Both. It's the mafia concerned about littering.
Kaykay Brady: 2:47
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 2:48
This is what you get.
Kaykay Brady: 2:49
So anyone that has not either received or given this particular gift, you light the bag of shit on fire, and then the person comes to the door and they see something on fire. And so they stomp on it, and then they get shit all over their feet. It's so great.
Brooke Suchomel: 3:06
The sheer joy that you just took...
Kaykay Brady: 3:10
Are you feeling the 12-year-old Kaykay coming through?
Brooke Suchomel: 3:12
Yeah, in detailing just the "how" a flaming bag of shit works and "why" it works. Like, you're really breaking down the nuances and the subtleties of the flaming bag of shit, and I like that.
Kaykay Brady: 3:25
I just don't want to assume that all readers are my age, because frankly, you really think kids are still doing this? Absolutely not. So I don't want to assume that they know the ins and outs of flaming bags of shit bombs on people's porches.
Brooke Suchomel: 3:40
One of the things that we've lost. And I think that it's time to bring it back. I like that you're taking up the cause of the flaming bag of shit.
Kaykay Brady: 3:48
Yeah. Let's bring it back!
Brooke Suchomel: 3:48
You know, kids are too distracted by their devices these days. What they- what you really need to do is just set them loose to clean up the neighborhood by putting flaming bags of shit on their neighbor's porches.
Kaykay Brady: 3:58
Or maybe, you know, maybe it needs to be an app, a virtual game. It's sort of like Paperboy.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:03
Where it's like Pokemon Go?
Kaykay Brady: 4:04
It's like Pokemon Go!
Brooke Suchomel: 4:05
But Pokemon Shit?
Kaykay Brady: 4:09
Pokemon Flaming Bag of Shit.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:11
Instead of catching 'em all, you're leaving 'em all, all over the neighborhood. I really enjoy that.
Kaykay Brady: 4:17
I think this has potential.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:19
I do too. If anybody needs to see a flaming bag of shit in action, the classic, Billy Madison, which is one of my favorites, has a very good flaming bag of shit scene.
Kaykay Brady: 4:32
We might have to post that.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:34
I really love how we're educating the youth.
Kaykay Brady: 4:36
It's so good.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:37
Doing God's work here.
Kaykay Brady: 4:37
My second favorite was just a simple classic, which was the M-80 in the mailbox. I mean that just, mm, chef's kiss. A classic, eternal and- and easy. You know, if there is a night you weren't feeling so energized, you just, you know, throw an M-80 in somebody's mailbox.
Brooke Suchomel: 4:57
I'm waiting for this to happen in the series, and I think if anybody does this, it's going to be Mary Anne.
Kaykay Brady: 5:05
Right, this is your Mary Anne theory. She's- she's on edge of exploding at all times.
Brooke Suchomel: 5:10
Right, right. M-80s everywhere. Oh, Mary Anne.
Kaykay Brady: 5:16
You crazy, girl.
Brooke Suchomel: 5:18
So along with all of this happening, the fifth Baby-sitters Club book was released in May 1987. And this is the first book to feature a narrator outside of the core original four characters, Dawn and the Impossible Three. So, time for some back cover copy. And I quote, "Dawn's the newest member of the Baby-sitters Club, and everybody's glad except Kristy. Kristy thinks things were better without Dawn around. That's why Dawn's eager to take on a big babysitting job. It's her chance to show Kristy what she's made of. What a mistake! Taking care of the three Barrett kids is too much for any baby-sitter. The house is in chaos, the kids are impossible, and Mrs. Barrett never does any of the things she promises. Dawn's got more trouble than she bargained for. But she's not going to give up until all four Barretts are under control and she's friends with Kristy. Or whichever comes first!" End quote. So, speaking of toxic environments, and flaming bags of shit, this book is basically a catalog of dysfunction.
Kaykay Brady: 6:25
Oh, yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 6:26
So Kaykay, looking at the events of Dawn and the Impossible Three from your perspective as a therapist, where would you even begin?
Kaykay Brady: 6:36
Well, I mean, I think the summary would be that this is a book where children are being asked to be partners, therapists, you know, they're just being asked to do so many things that are inappropriate, because, you know, moms are struggling, post divorce, with life skills. So it just can't get any more 80s than this, frankly. I mean, to me this is possibly one of the most 80s books yet.
Brooke Suchomel: 7:03
Just, from the perspective of kids being thrown into the deep end without much concern about the impact on their own development as people? Like, them as tools to be used?
Kaykay Brady: 7:15
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 7:16
As the adults see fit?
Kaykay Brady: 7:17
Also, just the Mrs. Barrett character, and the utter lack of functionality that she's bringing to the table. And the way that, literally and figuratively, Dawn is being sort of co-opted into picking up that slack.
Brooke Suchomel: 7:33
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 7:34
I think, you know, many, many a therapist has made, made their entire business out of providing therapy to folks that lived through this. It's super 80s.
Brooke Suchomel: 7:45
Totally.
Kaykay Brady: 7:46
And it wasn't a time when mental health was even accepted. So, you know, Mrs. Barrett needs to be three times a week therapy right now until she gets over this transition. And I guarantee that's not happening. Instead, she's going and wandering around an outdoor mall.
Brooke Suchomel: 8:00
Right, and that's the thing that is emphasized every time she appears, is that when you look at her as an individual, she looks very put together. Which- I find that to be very 80s, right? This emphasis on personal appearances above all else, particularly if you are a woman. That is what your value is. Your value is in being a decorative object. And everything else, including your responsibility for the three children who are depending on you for their survival, come secondary to you appearing to have it all together.
Kaykay Brady: 8:38
Your presentation.
Brooke Suchomel: 8:39
Whether or not that appearance reflects reality is really, frankly, beside the point. It's the appearance that matters most of all.
Kaykay Brady: 8:46
I totally agree, and I think this book is really ahead of its time, in the way that it's kind of challenging that and unpacking it. So at first when I was reading all of the text that said, "Oh, she's so beautiful and slim and put together" and all of this 80s dream stuff, I didn't realize that that was going to be put up against her total life dysfunction. And I thought that was really cool, and really kind of forward thinking, because I think in the 80s, it was just taken at face value. You know, if you look good, you feel good, you are good.
Brooke Suchomel: 9:19
Yes, absolutely. It's a really subversive book in that way, because you see, at the end, Ann M. Martin just kind of lays it all bare. I mean, you see multiple people break down in this book.
Kaykay Brady: 9:33
Of course! It's intense.
Brooke Suchomel: 9:35
There are a lot of meltdowns happening in this book. Mrs. Barrett melts down. Dawn melts down. The children are melting down all the time, as they should, because, holy shit, they're being neglected. I have that as my A plot, "Dawn becomes a parent of three."
Kaykay Brady: 9:54
Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 9:55
You know? Like, there are no- even Dawn's parents, Mary Anne's parents- there's no parents! Even when the parents do appear, like the babysitting charges, their parents, they just disappear very quickly. And, you know, Dawn's mom is also a mess. Not in as, I think, egregious of a way as Mrs. Barrett, as selfish of a way as Mrs. Barrett, but, you know, she's got everything that they were going to sell at a garage sale thrown into the bathroom. And Dawn puts it away, and she doesn't even notice. Like, it is just the burdens that are being put on these children. Unbelievable.
Kaykay Brady: 10:41
Yeah. And then we have another disturbing moment with I believe it was Suzi. And yet again, another fantastic 80s approach to emotional upset, where Suzi is so upset when Dawn is babysitting her. I think they were talking about divorce and Dawn said something about, "You know, dads don't come back," or you know, "Keep believing that, kid," kind of thing. And Suzi's so upset, she goes upstairs, and it says, "Hmm, we'll just leave her alone, then," that was sort of Dawn's approach to Suzi's upset, and then Suzi wets herself. She pisses herself when she's upstairs. And Dawn, basically, Dawn's take on this is, "Don't worry, I'm not going to tell your parents," which, okay, besides being a sign of sexual abuse, wetting yourself in daylight hours is something you definitely want to share with the parents.
Brooke Suchomel: 11:34
Right. But I think that Dawn even realizes that, even beyond this whole concept of "Don't tell your parents" -- again, looking at when Buddy goes missing, and the logistics of trying to figure out how to get ahold of Mrs. Barrett are very difficult. Which, again, that's one of the things I have put down as my 80s moment. Like, if you were not in a place at a specific time, good luck getting ahold- like, there's no way of getting ahold of somebody. But when they were discussing whether or not they should basically put out an APB to all of the restaurants in the shopping district that Mrs. Barrett was likely at, it was determined, "Oh, well she would just get concerned and come home." And it's like, "Uh huh, yeah. As she should."
Kaykay Brady: 12:24
Yeah, that's what we're looking for. Correct outcome.
Brooke Suchomel: 12:29
Right, but it's "Don't bother the adults" as the driving force of decisions.
Kaykay Brady: 12:37
Yes.
Brooke Suchomel: 12:38
And the adults are the ones who should be bothered, right? Who should be burdened with all of these responsibilities. Who should have to put their own bullshit on the backburner, you know? Not to say don't deal with it. Obviously, deal with it. Obviously, you know, feel what you're feeling and work through it, but not, prioritize distracting yourself from what you're feeling and just figuring that your kids will work it out. Or the 12-year-old girl who just moved to town, and who is frankly, neglected in her own life, will figure things out for you. Like, every parent in this book is a hot goddamn mess.
Kaykay Brady: 13:23
A hot goddamn mess.
Brooke Suchomel: 13:25
Just a hot mess.
Kaykay Brady: 13:26
It's tremendous. It's really impressive, actually.
Brooke Suchomel: 13:30
Yeah. Like, I remember the scene where Dawn asks like, "Well, what do you want me to do?" And Mrs. Barrett's, like, "Just...sit."
Kaykay Brady: 13:37
Oh! I was gonna say, oh my God. My quote for our podcast was precient! The quote, ready? Quote, "Mrs. Barrett paused for a moment, her beautiful face looked confused. 'Just...sit,' she said."
Brooke Suchomel: 13:51
Just keep sittin'.
Kaykay Brady: 13:52
Just keep sittin'! Finally!
Brooke Suchomel: 13:57
Right, like, "Oh yes, my infant has what is apparently a deathly allergy to chocolate. I won't bother to tell you that. Why would you need to know that?"
Kaykay Brady: 14:09
Not important.
Brooke Suchomel: 14:10
Ah, it's just unbelievable. And I think, though, it was really brave of Ann M. Martin to tackle head on the failings of adults.
Kaykay Brady: 14:26
Definitely.
Brooke Suchomel: 14:26
And to spell out in very clear terms, toward the end, like, the last couple of chapters get really real.
Kaykay Brady: 14:38
Yeah, well, it's funny because I, you know, was starting to take notes on the book and I thought, "Oh, finally, a book that, you know, the drama has calmed down." And we've gone from a 10 to simmering at a three and then- BAM, at the end, child abduction!
Brooke Suchomel: 14:55
Yes.
Kaykay Brady: 14:56
Slap! Right in your face!
Brooke Suchomel: 14:57
Yes! And the last couple of pages- so Kristy and Dawn, the children of divorce who are in the Baby-sitters Club, are talking to each other about what they would do if their fathers kidnapped them or their siblings. When they're discussing, you know, the thought of parents kidnapping their own children. Claudia says, "'The thought of parents kidnapping their own children is scary.' 'Yeah,' said Kristy. 'I wonder if my dad would ever do that to my brothers and me? Or what if he just took David Michael, and we never saw him again? How awful.' Kristy shivered. I did too. If my father kidnapped me, would I want to go back to California now? I wasn't sure. Although if he did kidnap me, I guess we couldn't go back to California. We would have to go someplace where no one would think to look for us, like Alaska. I definitely did not want to do that." Like, these are thoughts that children are having. And these are real, actual thoughts that I think a lot of kids of divorce have. That I think, you know, I remember when my parents were getting divorced, and the concerns that I had, about, you know, people's safety, my mom's safety, our safety.
Kaykay Brady: 16:24
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 16:24
It's really traumatic, and when you go through that at such an impressionable age, good lord. So you've got- the Barrett children are, what, like one, four, and seven?
Kaykay Brady: 16:38
Yeah, I think that's right.
Brooke Suchomel: 16:39
Somewhere around that timeframe. And I'm sure you know, as somebody studying child psychology, those ages are very specific points in time of child development.
Kaykay Brady: 16:52
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 16:52
When children start to enter new stages of cognition. And then at 12, when you are dealing with your physical changes, and for a lot of, again, the kids of divorce in this book, Dawn moving cross country, Kristy getting ready for her mom to get remarried and then to move. So it is just like, you are living in a time and place where you feel like you have no solid ground.
Kaykay Brady: 17:22
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 17:22
And then to see that the adults that are responsible for giving you some sort of ground to hold on to are just completely oblivious, because they are incapable of grappling with their own shit. So not only do you have to grapple with your own shit alone, but you're also having to pick up the pieces of the adults' lives around you. It's an incredible burden to put on the shoulders of kids. It's just unbelievable.
Kaykay Brady: 17:49
And when you were a kid, what was it like to be reading this series of books about divorce, given that it was going on in your own family?
Brooke Suchomel: 17:59
So I actually didn't read these books when I was going through my parents' divorce, because I was pretty much the age of the baby-sitters in this book when it happened. So I was 13.
Kaykay Brady: 18:15
Oh, so you had already read them.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:17
I had read them. But I had a lot of friends whose parents were divorced. I remember being kind of one of the outliers in my, you know, in my classes, and in my friend group, when I was an elementary school, that, like, my parents at the time were still married. So I actually found this to be- I remember reading these books gave me some insights into what my friends were going through. Most of the kids in my classes were children of divorce, so I actually found it to be sort of a helpful anthropological tool, in a way.
Kaykay Brady: 18:52
Yeah, I'm sure it was.
Brooke Suchomel: 18:54
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 18:55
And in the book, you know, I think writ large, this is seeming to me, the entire thing is basically an after school special about divorce.
Brooke Suchomel: 19:04
It really is.
Kaykay Brady: 19:04
Or at least so far in the series, every book, this is one of the central themes. Going deeper, every book a little more into different elements of it, but it's there all the time. And I think, probably easier to count the characters whose parents aren't divorced in these books than the characters whose parents are either going through it or have already gone through it.
Brooke Suchomel: 19:28
Yeah, even the kids that they babysit.
Kaykay Brady: 19:31
Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 19:32
And I think that to your point about, it seems like each of the books in sort of chronological succession get more and more into serious topics, I think that it's probably no accident that this is the first book that was not signed from the get go. Right? Like, The Baby-sitters Club, as we have discussed in earlier podcasts, was initially envisioned to be a four book series.
Kaykay Brady: 20:02
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 20:03
Just four books. And when you, from a publishing perspective, again, I obviously wasn't working at Scholastic when this was conceptualized, but just thinking of it from an industry perspective, you probably were not planning to get super deep, because how deep can you really get...
Kaykay Brady: 20:25
Yeah, you gotta wrap it up.
Brooke Suchomel: 20:26
...with characters in four books? And you could tell by the time they came around to Book Four, Mary Anne Saves the Day, they knew that they were going to continue on. That's why you get the introduction of Dawn.
Kaykay Brady: 20:39
Of the California girl.
Brooke Suchomel: 20:40
Of the California- which we have to get into. Oh my God!
Kaykay Brady: 20:43
Can we talk about that?
Brooke Suchomel: 20:44
We can but I just wanted to put a button on it, and this will actually lead into the discussion about California. Looking at this structurally, so with Book Five, that's when the author knows that she's got a blank canvas.
Kaykay Brady: 20:59
Mm hmm.
Brooke Suchomel: 21:00
And she can kind of take this where she wants to take it. So I think we're seeing what Ann M. Martin really wants to do with this series. It really starts in Book Five. Book Four, she's, you know, introducing the character, she's- she's setting up what's going to come next. And then Book Five reads to me like this is really where some of the reins get loosened for her, and she can make it what she wants to make it. And what she wants to make it is a really serious exploration of the real problems that kids are dealing with. And I think that this is the perfect book to do that, because you have this character who is coming from outside, so she's got this outside perspective. So- she's the first new narrator, she can go to a place that the other characters haven't gone to yet, because we are just getting to know her.
Kaykay Brady: 21:51
Yeah, she brings it with her to some degree.
Brooke Suchomel: 21:52
Exactly.
Kaykay Brady: 21:53
She's like, "Fuck this diabeetus shit. Child abduction, that's where it's at." Snoozefest. Diabeetus, snoozefest.
Brooke Suchomel: 22:02
And it's the fact that, so not only is she new to the series, but she's also new to the location. Within the world of Stoneybrook, she is the outsider coming in and trying to work it all out. It's a very smart setup for what this series becomes. And the way that Ann M. Martin just really tries to play up her outsider status by working in stereotype after fucking stereotype of California.
Kaykay Brady: 22:36
So great!
Brooke Suchomel: 22:37
Oh my God.
Kaykay Brady: 22:39
Where to start with the stereotypes?
Brooke Suchomel: 22:41
So she's obviously, if she's from anywhere real in California- and coming from California, I can say I don't think Ann M. Martin had spent really much time whatsoever in California.
Kaykay Brady: 22:51
Well, it's clear- you know, California is a gigantic fucking state, and not once-
Brooke Suchomel: 22:56
Kaykay Brady: 22:57
Wait, not once do we hear where in California Dawn is from.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:01
Right. So here's the thing. I'm gonna set this up for you. Because it comes out later that she is from a town that is obviously- Ann M. Martin is playing on Palo Alto.
Kaykay Brady: 23:14
Okay.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:14
Because the town she's from is called Palo City.
Kaykay Brady: 23:18
I see.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:18
Which we haven't gotten into yet, right? Palo Alto, for those of you who are unfamiliar with Northern California, can be cold as fuck.
Kaykay Brady: 23:28
Exactly. Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:30
It's the fact that she says that California has only quote "one season, summer" with quote "80 degree Christmases" -- maybe San Diego?
Kaykay Brady: 23:42
I was thinking, it's got to be Southern California.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:45
Maybe? But she is, like, shocked that there is a 40 degree torrential downpour.
Kaykay Brady: 23:51
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:51
We get those.
Kaykay Brady: 23:52
I know. I know.
Brooke Suchomel: 23:54
California gets those, and that she is shocked that the Atlantic Ocean water is 50 degrees. You are definitely...
Kaykay Brady: 24:04
It's freezing in the Pacific! That's what I didn't get.
Brooke Suchomel: 24:06
You are definitely not from Northern California.
Kaykay Brady: 24:07
Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 24:08
For sure.
Kaykay Brady: 24:09
In fact, the Atlantic Ocean in summer is warmer than the Pacific all year.
Brooke Suchomel: 24:13
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 24:13
So I was like, "What is she talking about?" I totally agree. I was like Ann M. Martin had not made it out to California at this point. She had just spread her wings and gotten to New York City.
Brooke Suchomel: 24:22
Oh God, and the food.
Kaykay Brady: 24:25
Oh yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 24:25
Just beating you over the head with the food. Tofu and ginger salad. Like, tofu and ginger comes up over this- all tofu, dried fruit. The scene where Dawn's mom goes, "I wonder if I could substitute raw honey for sugar in this recipe?" No, you cannot.
Kaykay Brady: 24:43
Do not.
Brooke Suchomel: 24:45
Any true vegetarian or, you know, obviously not vegan, but any true vegetarian would already know that.
Kaykay Brady: 24:51
Yeah, and also the self-righteousness about the food choices is- that's certainly ahead of its time in terms of the whole wellness nonsense that's constantly beaten into everybody's face. But that felt very stereotypical California too.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:09
Yeah, when Dawn's brother yells out to her, when they- her mom had left leftover stew on the stove for them to eat.
Kaykay Brady: 25:17
Ugh, leftover fuckin' stew. I just have to quickly tell a story, if you don't mind.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:21
About leftover stew?
Kaykay Brady: 25:22
Well, just- so my, my brother-in-law has this fantastic perspective on stew. He basically says every time he hears the NFL song, you know, "Da dun da dun," all he could think about his stew for dinner and all of your homework is due tomorrow and you haven't started any of it. It just makes me laugh.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:43
Sunday night. So that's what Sunday night means to him.
Kaykay Brady: 25:45
Yeah, so that's what the NFL football sounds like stew to him. And stew...
Brooke Suchomel: 25:49
Stew and homework, man. Oof.
Kaykay Brady: 25:50
Okay, like, I'm old now, so I like stew. But when you're young? Fuck stew. I mean, just fuck stew.
Brooke Suchomel: 25:59
You're coming out with a hot take of "Fuck stew."
Kaykay Brady: 26:02
That's my hot take on stew. I don't know, did you like stew? I mean, I'm seeing in your face that perhaps you didn't detest stew the way that I did.
Brooke Suchomel: 26:12
I did like, growing up, beef stew.
Kaykay Brady: 26:15
Mm hmm. I mean, it was always beef, no?
Brooke Suchomel: 26:18
Yeah, but obviously it wouldn't be, in Dawn's. Like, this would be some...
Kaykay Brady: 26:22
Yeah, some tofu stew.
Brooke Suchomel: 26:24
Just butternut squash and tofu.
Kaykay Brady: 26:27
As if stew couldn't get worse.
Brooke Suchomel: 26:29
My mom would make- she would call it stew, but it wasn't stew. It was a soup.
Kaykay Brady: 26:33
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 26:34
Like, there was no thickness to it, you know? It was just like- it had been stewing all day. We did a lot of Crock-Pot action growing up. So like, that is still one of the coziest smells to me, is like, you know, when you walk into a room that has been artificially heated by this electrical appliance that has been plugged in for eight hours, just...
Kaykay Brady: 26:55
Ah, the smells of home.
Brooke Suchomel: 26:57
And so, yeah, so like the room temperature is a little strange. It's the temperature that only comes from having a Crock-Pot working in it and the smell in the air is a very specific smell. So, to me, that's cozy. It's the only way that I liked beef, was the beef stew, that sort of braise.
Kaykay Brady: 27:18
I see.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:18
Mom would put like fresh vegetables in it. So I don't consider it, like, when you think of like Dinty Moore in a can. I can't hang with that whatsoever.
Kaykay Brady: 27:27
I hear you.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:28
But I don't eat beef anymore, so it's been a long time since I've had said stew.
Kaykay Brady: 27:31
And it's also possible, you know, I come from an Irish family. And we are not known for our culinary skill.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:39
Boil everything to death.
Kaykay Brady: 27:41
Correct. Everything was boiled. I mean, I didn't have fresh vegetables, I think, until college. Everything came out of a can. I mean, I thought I hated vegetables, only to discover in my adulthood that vegetables are pretty good! You just can't eat them like you're in a nuclear fallout shelter.
Brooke Suchomel: 27:56
It's true. I didn't really know that you could have a salad that didn't have cheese on it.
Kaykay Brady: 28:03
You can?
Brooke Suchomel: 28:05
You can! You can have a salad without cheese on it.
Kaykay Brady: 28:06
Not in any world that I live in. I don't know, that's not the kind of world I want to live in. I'm sticking to my cheese salad world.
Brooke Suchomel: 28:14
Just nuttin' but cheese and a little dressing.
Kaykay Brady: 28:18
Yeah, so probably cheese and ranch? You probably had a lot of ranch happening.
Brooke Suchomel: 28:22
A lot of ranch. A lot of Western dressing.
Kaykay Brady: 28:25
What is Western dressing?
Brooke Suchomel: 28:27
So Western dressing is commonly known as French dressing. Which isn't French. There's nothing French about French dressing whatsoever.
Kaykay Brady: 28:36
Sure, it's like mayonnaise and some onions or something?
Brooke Suchomel: 28:39
No, it's just like, orange. It's like, just this orange sweet sludge. I don't know what it is.
Kaykay Brady: 28:47
Okay, wait. Name- name the 80s movie, "Fronch bread, Fronch dressing, and to drink, Peru!"
Brooke Suchomel: 28:57
I don't know. You know all the quotes!
Kaykay Brady: 28:59
Better Off Dead.
Brooke Suchomel: 29:00
I haven't seen that one.
Kaykay Brady: 29:02
What? Okay, I don't want to be this douchebag that, like, screams because you haven't seen a movie, so I'm gonna suppress that reaction --
Brooke Suchomel: 29:10
No, it's fine.
Kaykay Brady: 29:10
-- and just say, Better Off Dead... You know, if you could throw that in with Terminator 2 and Howard the Duck, it's also, you know, a major seminal moment in my childhood.
Brooke Suchomel: 29:22
So I've got to watch it, so I can add that to my understanding of Terminator 2, Popeye...
Kaykay Brady: 29:29
Oh right, Popeye. I forgot Popeye.
Brooke Suchomel: 29:31
...Howard the Duck, and now, Better Off Dead, equals you.
Kaykay Brady: 29:33
Right. Of all the things that have created this, this person you see before you...
Brooke Suchomel: 29:37
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 29:37
Better Off Dead is on that list.
Brooke Suchomel: 29:40
I'll have to check that out. Yeah, a lot of salads in the Midwest have some sort of cream in them. Have mostly frozen vegetables. Frozen peas make an appearance a lot.
Kaykay Brady: 29:53
Well, it's cold there.
Brooke Suchomel: 29:55
I don't understand it. I don't know how it happened. You will get a lot of sweet salads with things like Cool Whip and-
Kaykay Brady: 30:04
What? Wait. Wait, wait.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:06
Oh yeah, many, there's a whole-
Kaykay Brady: 30:08
Cool Whip in the salad?
Brooke Suchomel: 30:09
Oh my God, yes. There is an entire genre of food.
Kaykay Brady: 30:13
But like, how? Is it just thrown in there? Is it dolloped on the top? I need details!
Brooke Suchomel: 30:17
No, it is the basis. It is a Cool Whip based salad.
Kaykay Brady: 30:21
Shut your mouth.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:22
It is the foundation of the salad.
Kaykay Brady: 30:24
So it's basically a bowl of Cool Whip with some vegetables in it, is what you're telling me.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:30
Not vegetables. Not vegetables. Fruits and nuts.
Kaykay Brady: 30:34
Oh, it's a fruit salad. That actually sounds not bad.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:38
It's not bad. It's not a salad.
Kaykay Brady: 30:41
Yeah, it's definitely not a salad.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:42
Right? It's like, you put the word "salad" on it. So if you go to a Midwestern salad bar, if you go to a Pizza Ranch, which is a thing.
Kaykay Brady: 30:54
Oh, it's like a chain? Pizza Ranch is a chain.
Brooke Suchomel: 30:56
It's a chain. It's a chain that we will never set foot in again, because the politics of the owners are so fucking egregious. But a Pizza Ranch is a buffet of pizza and broasted chicken.
Kaykay Brady: 31:14
It's a pizza buffet?
Brooke Suchomel: 31:16
It's a pizza buffet.
Kaykay Brady: 31:18
Wow.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:18
So there's a pizza buffet with fried chicken on it.
Kaykay Brady: 31:22
Wait. The fried chicken is on the pizza?
Brooke Suchomel: 31:25
The fried chicken is next to the pizza.
Kaykay Brady: 31:27
Oh I see. I see.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:28
The staples of the buffet are pizza- and this is not good pizza. This might shock you, coming from New York, but rural Iowa pizza is not good.
Kaykay Brady: 31:40
Midwestern pizza is not fantastic?
Brooke Suchomel: 31:41
No, it's not good. It actually is quite acceptable if you consider it to be an elaborate breadstick.
Kaykay Brady: 31:48
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 31:49
If you treat it like, this is a cheese stick, a flat cheese stick with additions to it. That's the best way to appreciate Midwestern pizza. But that's what you get is- you pay 10 bucks. All you can eat pizza. All you can eat broasted chicken, which is a different way of preparing fried chicken. I'm not sure what's different about it, but it is delicious. And then you have your quote unquote "salad bar" that has a lot of, like, you get your iceberg lettuce, black olives from a can, pre-shredded, just government cheddar. And then ranch dressing, of course. It is called Pizza Ranch for a reason. Because we dip, in the Midwest, we do dip our pizza crust in ranch. And sometimes you'll see people dip the actual slice in ranch. So like, ranch on the cheese and all of that.
Kaykay Brady: 32:43
It's such an abomination. I'm gonna try really hard not to get onto my New Yorker pizza high horse because that's annoying.
Brooke Suchomel: 32:50
As I said that, I am imagining, like...
Kaykay Brady: 32:52
That I'm dying inside? Yes. My soul has shrunk.
Brooke Suchomel: 32:57
I'm putting myself back at Lombardi's. And I am asking them for a side of ranch for my pizza. And just imagine- or Roberta's, like a truly good New York pizza place, and what the look on the face would be if I asked my server for a side of ranch to dip my delicious New York pizza in. Can you even- would I get punched in the face? What's the over-under on me being punched in the face?
Kaykay Brady: 33:25
You'd probably just get a, "Get the fuck outta here." That's my guess.
Brooke Suchomel: 33:30
A verbal punch in the face.
Kaykay Brady: 33:32
Yeah, obviously. You know, New Yorkers, we keep it together. We're not assaulting people for pizza, but we will verbally assault over pizza.
Brooke Suchomel: 33:40
Right, it's deserved. But then you will also get a lot of cream-based salads. And that can include your macaroni salads, which will always have ranch dressing, sour cream, and chunks of cheddar cheese in it.
Kaykay Brady: 33:55
Wow.
Brooke Suchomel: 33:56
And then your Cool Whip-based salads, which sometimes will include powdered instant pudding mix and Cool Whip. And then you throw in, like, some nuts and some, like, canned fruit cocktail.
Kaykay Brady: 34:10
Damn.
Brooke Suchomel: 34:10
And you call that a salad.
Kaykay Brady: 34:12
Holy shit. I mean, I feel like I understand people from the Midwest better. Can I tell you the story of when I first met someone from the Midwest?
Brooke Suchomel: 34:20
Yes.
Kaykay Brady: 34:21
So I was in college and I was in a sociology class and a girl in the class- the teacher was talking about, you know, gender expectations and the way that men and women can sort of take up more or less space. And, you know, men have a lot of entitlement, kind of spread their legs and have bigger bodies and that kind of thing. And this girl raised her hand. She goes, "Oh my god, professor. That is so true. Like, I got an email from my boyfriend yesterday and it said, 'Hooray, Lisa had a salad for lunch.'' And then we're all just kind of silent, looking at each other, and the professor goes, "What do you usually have for lunch?" And she goes, "I don't know, chicken fingers?"
Brooke Suchomel: 35:04
Your Chicagoland accent is fantastic.
Kaykay Brady: 35:08
Well, so it was the first- I didn't even know what it was. I came straight from New York City up to upstate New York, where there were people from the whole country. I met people from California, I met people from the Midwest, and I was like, "What is this? What is this accent? Who's this human being? She's amazing! I need to get to know this person."
Brooke Suchomel: 35:29
Oh, God, I love a Chicagoland accent, which actually- like, I have learned in my travels, is kind of a Great Lakes accent.
Kaykay Brady: 35:38
Okay.
Brooke Suchomel: 35:38
Like, you get the Chicagoland accent up in Buffalo. You get it up in Detroit.
Kaykay Brady: 35:45
Yeah, good point.
Brooke Suchomel: 35:46
In Toledo. Like, along the Great Lakes, there is a very specific accent that just brings me infinite joy.
Kaykay Brady: 35:55
It's joyous.
Brooke Suchomel: 35:56
I just, I love it so much.
Kaykay Brady: 35:59
I'm glad that I could bring you the accent joy. And that my Midwestern accent isn't too bad given that I only encountered it in my early 20s.
Brooke Suchomel: 36:09
Clearly it made a huge impression.
Kaykay Brady: 36:11
Yeah, it was a transformative moment in my young life.
Brooke Suchomel: 36:15
Yeah, no, Midwesterners- we do love a chicken finger.
Kaykay Brady: 36:17
"We do love a chicken finger." I mean, I love a chicken finger. I definitely can get behind all of the Midwestern food. I'm living in California, but please, bring on the Midwestern food. I mean, that sounds great! A Cool Whip salad? Sure! Cheese in everything? Yes. Casseroles? I love it. My partner is from Chicago, and she's constantly telling me about casseroles. And I'm like, how did I miss this growing up in New York City? We didn't have casseroles.
Brooke Suchomel: 36:44
Not even a tuna casserole?
Kaykay Brady: 36:46
No! I mean, all of this can be filtered, probably, through the fact that I'm Irish. So other families possibly cooked more than we did, but we just- it was just boiled meat and canned vegetables and a lot alcohol.
Brooke Suchomel: 36:59
Well, but that is also a casserole. Like, I think it is a stretch to consider a casserole "cooking."
Kaykay Brady: 37:06
I see. Wait, what's casserole? Boiled meat?
Brooke Suchomel: 37:09
No, so a casserole is, you generally take a bunch of canned things- so you take canned meat, and you take canned soup, and perhaps you take a canned vegetable if you're feeling healthy. And you mix it all in a 9 by 13 pan, and you pop that shit in the oven. And maybe you sprinkle some breadcrumbs or some dry Stove Top stuffing mix on top, and you got yourself a casserole.
Kaykay Brady: 37:34
Yes. I just think that sounds a lot better than what I experienced. Which was, you take the can opener, you open the can of vegetables, you plop it in a little saucepan, and you heat it.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:44
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 37:44
There you go. There's your vegetables.
Brooke Suchomel: 37:46
Right. I mean, putting it in a saucepan is a step up.
Kaykay Brady: 37:50
You think we just like ate it like animals with a spoon?
Brooke Suchomel: 37:52
My mom was a big fan of microwaving canned peas.
Kaykay Brady: 37:54
Shut your mouth!
Brooke Suchomel: 37:56
Yes. Yes. Sorry, Mom. Like, that is a smell...
Kaykay Brady: 38:01
Like, it takes like 10 minutes to cook peas on the stovetop.
Brooke Suchomel: 38:03
It will never leave my nostrils. Microwaved canned peas. Like, microwaved in the liquid. Again, I'm sorry, Mom, I just have to speak my truth. It's never gone away. That smell has never gone away.
Kaykay Brady: 38:21
We won't be supressing your food trauma. We won't be suppressing it. It's not that kind of podcast. This is- you are free to share your food trauma.
Brooke Suchomel: 38:29
There's really no other way to classify microwaved canned peas than "food trauma." That is the apex of food trauma.
Kaykay Brady: 38:38
So anyway, Dawn. Dawn is- she's bringing them California wellness. She's not doing casseroles, she's not doing pizza.
Brooke Suchomel: 38:46
Well, if she does pizza, her brother's like, "The all-natural frozen meatless pizza." Like, he makes sure that he's like, "This is acceptable pizza."
Kaykay Brady: 38:53
Also, you don't need to call pizza "meatless." Like, in its essence, pizza starts meatless, and then you decide if you want to add meat.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:02
Yes. Like, cheese pizza --
Kaykay Brady: 39:04
Is pizza!
Brooke Suchomel: 39:05
-- is the ideal pizza.
Kaykay Brady: 39:07
Correct. Exactly. I'm really glad to hear you say that, because sometimes people don't feel that way, and then New Yorkers gotta get real mad about it.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:14
Well those people are wrong.
Kaykay Brady: 39:16
"These are garbage people!"
Brooke Suchomel: 39:17
Those people are just flat-out wrong. Exactly.
Kaykay Brady: 39:20
Those are people that are inflicting their food trauma on you.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:24
Right. So yeah, so she's got, you know, her food is very, like, again, just beating you in the face with the fact that she's from California. With the stereotypical food that, like, is not real.
Kaykay Brady: 39:37
I don't know, there is nutritional yeast at movie theaters here.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:40
That's true.
Kaykay Brady: 39:41
I just- I just want everyone to know that doesn't live in California. I remember the first time I saw that, I almost dropped my popcorn on the floor, bending over laughing seeing that it was like salt, butter, nutritional yeast.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:55
Yeah, I think I saw that with- I don't know if it was the first time you saw it.
Kaykay Brady: 39:58
It was. You were with me.
Brooke Suchomel: 39:59
But I remember the first time I saw it, we were at a movie theater together. And I think this is when we were going to see that abomination that was The Tree of Life. Remember that movie, The Tree of Life?
Kaykay Brady: 40:09
I try to forget it every day.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:12
And we made those guys sitting in front of us so mad, the way we were like...
Kaykay Brady: 40:16
Oh yeah, we were sitting behind a couple of real snotty Cal students that just thought, you know, they were clearly in an Intro to Film class or something. And so they were just lapping up this pile of diarrhea like it was mother's milk.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:36
It's so bad!
Kaykay Brady: 40:36
And we were laughing and dying at this whole stupid movie.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:40
I think he got really mad when I asked you if we were just watching a screensaver. I was like, "Did something go wrong? Like, do projectors have screensavers?"
Kaykay Brady: 40:51
Did the film burn, and now they're just showing you a blank reel? I don't know.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:56
We were just like looking at a flower for like five minutes.
Kaykay Brady: 40:59
Lord.
Brooke Suchomel: 40:59
It's like, "What is this?" Anyway, yeah, I think the most entertaining part of that entire moviegoing experience, apart from irritating the students in front of us, was the first exposure to nutritional yeast. Which, yeah, you're right, that is a thing. But she also makes it very clear that like, she doesn't like guns.
Kaykay Brady: 41:21
I know, the gun, the gun situation. And then not only that she doesn't like guns, she's not going to allow any kids that she's babysitting for to play with guns in her presence.
Brooke Suchomel: 41:29
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 41:30
Instead, they're gonna play hairdresser, which- every red blooded American boy would rather play hairdresser than play guns, obviously. What a good approach Dawn!
Brooke Suchomel: 41:40
But I think she's good at seeing how, she's like, "We're gonna play hairdresser because you kids are a hot mess." It sounds like the kids just, like, have not been groomed in days.
Kaykay Brady: 41:51
Mm hmm. I mean, is she a mandated reporter? Because this is CPS report territory.
Brooke Suchomel: 41:56
I don't think mandated reporting was a thing in this time.
Kaykay Brady: 42:00
That's probably true.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:00
I think mandated reporting might have come about from this particular incident.
Kaykay Brady: 42:04
Definitely from this time in history.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:07
Good God. But she's smart that she says, you know, "You can play the dad." Like, she's very emotionally intelligent.
Kaykay Brady: 42:16
Yes.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:16
Like, she's very sharp at observing all of the different people who are in a situation and their motives, and sort of figuring out what is the best way to reach them.
Kaykay Brady: 42:29
To motivate them.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:29
Which is classic for kids who grow up in a dysfunctional family.
Kaykay Brady: 42:34
Absolutely.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:35
Because you have to do that to survive.
Kaykay Brady: 42:36
Yeah, because it's da- it can be dangerous if you don't.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:40
Absolutely.
Kaykay Brady: 42:40
If you don't figure that out.
Brooke Suchomel: 42:41
It's what you have to do in order to create a safe and productive environment. You see that throughout she figures out, even with Janine at the very beginning, she says Kristy and Mary Anne, they don't like Janine, but, quote, "You just need to know how to handle her."
Kaykay Brady: 42:59
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 43:00
So she figures out how to engage with Janine in a way that like, allows her to connect with her and also to distract her and to, like, keep moving. And she does that with her charges, too. She does it with Kristy.
Kaykay Brady: 43:13
Yes.
Brooke Suchomel: 43:14
Right? She's like, "Okay, I've got to bring Kristy in. Turn the attention to Kristy." Kristy is angry at the lunch table because Mary Anne and Dawn are getting attention, so she's going to put the spotlight on Kristy to make her feel better. She figures out, you know, Mary Anne is like, "Is Kristy mad?" And Dawn says, "No, she's not mad, she's jealous." Like, she's very good at sizing up the situation, and deciding how to tackle that situation based on what she can pick up about the people who are in said situation with her. She also notices, for instance, that Karen and Andrew are allowed to roam free in Watson's very, very weird large house. I just will never get over- why is there a tree in a brass tub in the living room? And by a fireplace doesn't seem like a smart place.
Kaykay Brady: 44:06
It's just common sense.
Brooke Suchomel: 44:08
What do I know? But that the kids are allowed to run around, that they don't break things, because she says it seems like their dad trusts them. And they know that their dad trusts them, and so they aren't going to break things because of that trust. So she's reading into sort of the psychology of other people.
Kaykay Brady: 44:31
True.
Brooke Suchomel: 44:31
And, you know, how you can motivate people in healthy ways. Which I thought was really great, but it's also very sad that a 12-year-old has to have those skills that highly developed at that age, because frankly, if you're 12, you should be selfish. You should be thinking about yourself. Like, you shouldn't have to be, like, on eggshells.
Kaykay Brady: 44:54
Yeah, and the reason she has to have that level of emotional skill is because the adults are lacking all emotional skills.
Brooke Suchomel: 45:01
Absolutely.
Kaykay Brady: 45:02
And not even emotional skills, functional life skills.
Brooke Suchomel: 45:05
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 45:06
You know, this is going beyond high levels of emotional literacy. This is basic grooming, feeding, care of yourself and others.
Brooke Suchomel: 45:16
Yeah. I mean, Dawn is the parent. She is her mom's parent. You know, she is the one that has to, like, tell her mom, "Hey, Mom, you're running out of the house with your price tags attached to your clothing and your earrings don't match." Which, yeah, that's fine. You can just say it's a Claudia style, right?
Kaykay Brady: 45:38
That's right, it was the 80s.
Brooke Suchomel: 45:39
But she knows that her mom can't function properly. You know, she has to tell her mom, "Hey, you've invited a bunch of people over for a picnic and you're, like, just now trying to figure out if you have enough tofu to make tofu ginger salad for people who will turn their noses up to it. Why don't we go buy a grill and grill out?" She is the one that has to keep the household together. And then she's sort of thrust into this codependent relationship with this highly dysfunctional woman who just seems, you know, like somebody who really shouldn't have had kids.
Kaykay Brady: 46:22
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 46:24
But you know, back in the 80s, that's what you did.
Kaykay Brady: 46:27
Yeah, of course.
Brooke Suchomel: 46:28
Like, that's- and still, to this day, you know, if you choose not to have children, or if you cannot have children, you are seen as not really being a full woman in a lot of ways by society, right?
Kaykay Brady: 46:46
Absolutely.
Brooke Suchomel: 46:47
You know, if a woman goes missing or something like that, or if a woman dies, it's like, "This is a mother of..."
Kaykay Brady: 46:53
"This is someone's mother."
Brooke Suchomel: 46:55
Right. "This is a mother of three" or "a young mother." Like, if a woman has children, then that is who that woman is. And if a woman doesn't have children, then it's like, "Well, why doesn't this woman have children?"
Kaykay Brady: 47:06
Yeah. I have to say, this is one of the beautiful things about being a gay person. You really get a pass on that. You know, peop- you're barely accepted as you are. People- they're not worried that you're getting married and having children.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:19
Do you see that changing at all in recent years?
Kaykay Brady: 47:21
I think it's changing. Yeah, I think I'm probably of the generation that was too old for that to change for it. But I'm sure with younger gay people, their parents are just seeing it as- well, it might depend on the parent.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:35
For sure.
Kaykay Brady: 47:35
But I'm sure they're much more seeing it as just, "Oh, yeah, you're gonna get married, and you are probably going to have kids" and they're probably getting the same pressure. But I was gloriously free of that pressure.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:48
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 47:49
Please. Nobody gives a shit.
Brooke Suchomel: 47:51
It's an interesting question that I haven't thought of until just now. Like, I wonder- I would expect that single gay people don't get necessarily- single out gay people don't necessarily get the same pressure of like, "When are you going to get married? When are you going to settle down?"
Kaykay Brady: 48:08
Definitely.
Brooke Suchomel: 48:08
However that is defined.
Kaykay Brady: 48:09
That was certainly my experience.
Brooke Suchomel: 48:11
And I would suspect that that is still the case, it's just the degree to which you get that pressure, it's just not the same degree of pressure. But I wonder if that is different when you are partnered. Not to say that, again, it is the same sort of scale of, "When are you going to have kids?" Like, my husband and I have been married for 10 years, we don't have kids, and like, that question still comes up.
Kaykay Brady: 48:39
I'm sure. God, you know, I've never been asked once.
Brooke Suchomel: 48:44
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 48:44
Not once, and I've been partnered several times very seriously.
Brooke Suchomel: 48:50
Does the fact that when you're partnered, you don't get asked about, "Oh, are you going to have kids?" Like, is that something that you are consciously aware that that is like a difference for you as a gay person than somebody who is straight might get?
Kaykay Brady: 49:08
Well, it probably wasn't until I was a grown up, and I started to kind of more clearly notice the differences. You know, when you're young, especially when we grew up, and you grew up gay, it was just- you were just in this nightmare of denial and fear and anxiety that, number one, you might be this terrible thing. And number two, your family might outright reject you. So basically, any support that you got was gravy. So when I was younger, you know, I was just sort of so in that oppressed mindset, that it didn't even occur to me. But then as I got older and gay people started to be accepted more and gay marriage passed, all of a sudden, I was able to see sort of those little discrepancies and be like, "Oh, interesting. I'm treated differently." And the really interesting thing is that not only could I see those things, but I could see ways that it was great, right? So there's a real double-edged sword to being accepted by society, right?
Brooke Suchomel: 50:05
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 50:06
Like, it's kind of great to be on the outs in some ways. You know, you get to sort of think for yourself. You get to sort of decide in your relationship what your gender dynamics look like. There's just so many freedoms to it.
Brooke Suchomel: 50:19
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 50:20
There's a lot of oppression and pain too, but I swear to God, I think, like, straight, white, thin women are so struggling to be perfect.
Brooke Suchomel: 50:32
Oh God yes.
Kaykay Brady: 50:33
Because, it's like they're accepted in the group, and it's like, "Just reach for that brass ring! You can get it, girl!" But like, you know, if you're sort of, like, a fat lesbian person of color, you know, just like any of these things that are in the out group, you have to say, "Fuck it." You have to say, "Go fuck yourself, I'm not interested in your bullshit." It's like drag queens, you know? Like, the strongest, most centered human beings you see in the world are fucking drag queens who literally could get murdered, for just doing their craft and being themselves. It's tremendous. And then you watch America's Next Top Model, and it's like, these "perfect," quote, unquote, 18-year-old, you know, skinny white models just feel like they are a piece of trash.
Brooke Suchomel: 51:18
Yeah, because if you are a part of the hegemony, then you lose your individuality. Like, by definition, if you are a part of, like, the norm, if you are accepted into that, that means that any sort of dissent, any sort of even like skewing expectations, is not allowed. Because the minute that someone within the hegemony challenges the hegemony in any way, then that threatens the hegemony, right?
Kaykay Brady: 51:48
Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 51:48
So it is just this pressure to conform. When the hegemony doesn't even acknowledge your existence, you know, or if they do, like, it is as a concept, it's like, you as the Other --
Kaykay Brady: 52:04
Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 52:04
-- but the Other with a capital O, like, no actual definition of what the Other is, except for it is not these, like, predefined traits. That gives you a freedom of expression that those within the hegemony are simply not allowed.
Kaykay Brady: 52:23
Yep.
Brooke Suchomel: 52:24
It's just oppression all around, right?
Kaykay Brady: 52:27
It sure is. Yeah, on both sides. No doubt about it.
Brooke Suchomel: 52:27
It's oppressing everything outside the hegemony and it's oppression inward as well. And how miserable it is when you're within that, and so you are told by society that like, you are what everyone should strive to be. Like, it's very clear in this book that Mrs. Barrett, you're told time and time again, she is beautiful. She is stunning. She looks like a model. She's like Linda Evangelista. But she is so clearly and deeply unhappy. And even the things that she is doing to try to find a sense of purpose, like going on job interviews, but it sounds like she goes on a lot of job interviews, right?
Kaykay Brady: 53:07
Oh dude, she's ripe for NXIVM.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:10
Yeah, for sure.
Kaykay Brady: 53:11
She's gonna be in The Vow.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:13
Oh my God. And then going shopping.
Kaykay Brady: 53:15
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:16
You know, just very like- like, the jobs that she's looking for are temp jobs, you know? Like, it's just this sort of, like, superficial, get-me-through-the-next-day kind of activities. And she is clearly just broken inside.
Kaykay Brady: 53:32
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 53:33
Like, her home is an expression of her internal mindset, right? It is a goddamn mess. And so when you are within that hegemony, as she is, as like a 33-year-old beautiful woman with three children. And she had been married, you know, so something happened. We don't know why she got divorced. But clearly, it was incredibly bitter, because she won't even let her ex-husband call the children except for on a very specific date. So something really ugly went down there. And so when you have done what society tells you you should do, and when you appear how society tells you you should appear, when you feel like you have done everything right, and you're still not happy. But you are told that those who don't do what you've done are not- they are not just not happy, but they are bad.
Kaykay Brady: 54:28
They don't exist! At best.
Brooke Suchomel: 54:29
They are to be shunned. Right, right. And if they do, it's like, oh, you know, turn that out. It is the darkest of places because you literally have nowhere to turn.
Kaykay Brady: 54:39
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 54:40
And you feel like you're broken, like you're bad. Like there is no option for you because society tells you that there isn't. And it's all a fucking lie.
Kaykay Brady: 54:50
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 54:51
It's a lie.
Kaykay Brady: 54:52
Of course it is.
Brooke Suchomel: 54:53
And I think that that is why, you know, I'm with you. Like, I find drag to be so incredibly beautiful and liberating. And I find people that are just able to be themselves, whether it's, you know, you're gay or whatever. Just, you know, you're weird, and “weird” in like meaning, like, society would classify you as weird. Like, people who basically let their freak flag fly, right? And who own it, who take joy in it. It's the most beautiful thing in the world, because it is so incredibly brave to just say, "I am who I am. I make no apologies. And I'm going to find joy in it." And those are the best people to be around.
Kaykay Brady: 55:40
Oh yes. Oh yes.
Brooke Suchomel: 55:41
Because you get honesty. There's no bullshit. These are people who know who they are. And just, the ability to just embrace your true self, I think is really lovely. Particularly when we live in a society that does not want you to embrace your true self unless your true self is just upholding the fuckin' white supremacist patriarchy.
Kaykay Brady: 56:05
Yeah. And even then they still want to sell you shit.
Brooke Suchomel: 56:08
Absolutely.
Kaykay Brady: 56:09
You know?
Brooke Suchomel: 56:09
It's all about money and power. That's how you're able to control people.
Kaykay Brady: 56:12
Yeah, then they're just gonna sell you wellness, so you can sort of justify your privilege. Boom, slap! That's how I feel about this conversation. Boom, slap, there you go, patriarchy-hegemony.
Brooke Suchomel: 56:25
On the topic of "fuck the patriarchy," there's also a hint at the beginning of Chapter Four that Dawn may be pan. She may be pansexual, which I think is beautiful.
Kaykay Brady: 56:37
Oh my God, lay it on us.
Brooke Suchomel: 56:38
So, Chapter Four. Dawn talks about the different lunch groups, which again, oh God, every time I read about the lunch groups, it just, like- I feel my shoulders tense up. Like, my spine kind of straightens. It's just...oof.
Kaykay Brady: 56:54
It's your personal 'Nam.
Brooke Suchomel: 56:55
It is. Went through the shit, man. "Were you in the shit?"
Kaykay Brady: 56:59
"Were you in the shit?"
Brooke Suchomel: 57:00
Were you in the shit? Were you at a middle school lunch table?
Kaykay Brady: 57:04
I feel like a lot of adults feel that way. I went to some private schools where you got assigned to lunch tables, and you sat around with table masters and you had to make polite conversation, so...
Brooke Suchomel: 57:15
Was it like Harry Potter? I imagine...
Kaykay Brady: 57:16
It was a little- ooh! Speaking of Harry Potter, we learned that David Michael sleeps under the stairs in a closet. As if David Michael isn't fucked enough.
Brooke Suchomel: 57:26
Poor David Michael.
Kaykay Brady: 57:27
Poor David Michael, he sleeps in the cupboard like Harry Potter. Yeah, it was a little like Harry Potter. It was a big fancy hall with big windows and stuff like that. The desserts were primarily berry crisps or apple crisps, which is- I can't stand fruit desserts. That was food trauma! I could never get a good dessert. I was always just giv- oh, and I would give my apple crisp away, and I had so many friends because giving away your apple crisp... People love this shit! It was like crack to these weird blue blood kids. They never had a proper dessert in their fuckin' life! It was like, "Oh, you're giving me some sugared berries! Thank you, mother!"
Brooke Suchomel: 58:08
So sad.
Kaykay Brady: 58:10
It's so sad!
Brooke Suchomel: 58:10
I picture them all being, like, very rail thin and pale. And just kind of, like, hunched over a little bit.
Kaykay Brady: 58:15
Oh shit, I'm taking us so far afield, but they basically all looked like Dawn on the cover of this book. So, on the cover of this book, Dawn...
Brooke Suchomel: 58:23
With the tight rolled pants, too? The tight rolled jeans?
Kaykay Brady: 58:26
Yeah, so, I'm gonna just...
Brooke Suchomel: 58:27
Blue bloods wear tight rolled jeans?
Kaykay Brady: 58:29
Well, not- no, no, blue bloods...
Brooke Suchomel: 58:31
Okay.
Kaykay Brady: 58:32
Not really the outfit as much as just, you know...
Brooke Suchomel: 58:35
Expression?
Kaykay Brady: 58:35
Okay, so she's thin. She's blonde, but like a little bit tan. You know, she's not like a Swedish blonde, she's like a tan blonde. And she's got, you know, some real sensible hair that- and this is like the timeless preppy hair. This hair that you're looking at?
Brooke Suchomel: 58:51
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 58:52
Like, if you go to a boarding school today, all of the girls have this hair. If you go to boarding school in the 60s, same hair. 70s, same hair. 80s, same hair. It is the timeless hair of the blue bloods. And I have to admit...
Brooke Suchomel: 59:06
"The Timeless Hair of the Blue Bloods."
Kaykay Brady: 59:08
Put that on a shirt!
Brooke Suchomel: 59:09
What a great album name.
Kaykay Brady: 59:13
Well you know, my partner and I have a band. It's called Wymyn's Gym. And this might be our second. Our first album is called Noblesse Oblige, so similar theme!
Brooke Suchomel: 59:23
Oh, so it's perfect! The Timeless Hair of the Blue Bloods.
Kaykay Brady: 59:26
Anyway, I have to say I have a major crush on Dawn on this cover, 'cause she looks...I mean, dude...
Brooke Suchomel: 59:34
Because she looks like every girl you had a crush on in boarding school?
Kaykay Brady: 59:36
Yes, exactly. But in my defense, she looks like a 40-year-old money manager from Greenwich, Connecticut.
Brooke Suchomel: 59:43
She does.
Kaykay Brady: 59:44
On this cover.
Brooke Suchomel: 59:45
The shoes too, right?
Kaykay Brady: 59:46
Exactly!
Brooke Suchomel: 59:46
The shoes are like sensible loafers.
Kaykay Brady: 59:51
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 59:51
Although I suppose now, if she was the money manager, they'd probably be Tory Burch slides.
Kaykay Brady: 59:55
I don't know what that is. I'm way too lesbian for that. But you always educate me. Brooke is always educating me on fabrics and dress patterns and types that I just- I've never heard the words and she'll tell me.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:11
Kaykay Brady: 1:00:12
No idea what that means.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:13
Kaykay Brady: 1:00:14
Nope. I've heard of an empire waist!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:17
There you go! That's good. Very Jane Austen.
Kaykay Brady: 1:00:18
I think you taught me that.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:20
You're welcome.
Kaykay Brady: 1:00:20
Either you or my sister.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:22
Well, I mean, you're always good for teaching me how to use recording software, et cetera.
Kaykay Brady: 1:00:27
How to set up a tent!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:29
Exactly. If I ever need to set up a tent or do any sort of manual labor, I know exactly who to call.
Kaykay Brady: 1:00:34
That's right.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:35
It's very helpful. Yeah, her sort of exasperated expression. The jeans that are rolled up and the white socks that are rolled down.
Kaykay Brady: 1:00:44
Yeah, and also the body posture. It's just very, you know, middle-aged mom that's just had it.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:49
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 1:00:49
Which fits with the theme that she's been sort of co-opted into being a co-parent here.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:00:54
Definitely. Well, you know, it's very possible that if Dawn was the blue blood at your boarding school that you may have actually have had a shot, because she says on page 33 that, "Ordinarily, Mary Anne sat with Kristy and the Shillaber twins. Now that she and Kristy are friends again, they're back to their usual lunch group. Sometimes I join them, sometimes I joined Claudia and Stacey who sit with a different crowd, girls AND boys."
Kaykay Brady: 1:01:22
Ooh!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:22
Emphasis on the "and." "Kristy and Mary Anne think boys are dumb. Stacey and Claudia love them. I'm deciding."
Kaykay Brady: 1:01:30
It's so perfect!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:31
You don't have to decide!
Kaykay Brady: 1:01:33
Just go into that world like a Pizza Ranch buffet. Ah, that was beautiful. Beautiful quote to pull out, my friend.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:40
Any other moments that jumped out at you? Any other plots that struck you?
Kaykay Brady: 1:01:47
Yeah, I guess we learned that all Mary Anne's dad needed was to get laid. And all of his...
Brooke Suchomel: 1:01:54
It's been 12 years, man.
Kaykay Brady: 1:01:55
All his problems was just magically go away. He's now no longer uptight. He's, he's happy. He's- I don't know.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:02:01
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 1:02:01
It feels a little reductive.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:02:02
He even got contacts.
Kaykay Brady: 1:02:06
And also the way that- the strange thing that I found is all the kids are so into this romance.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:02:12
That is not accurate.
Kaykay Brady: 1:02:14
Correct! Who could give less of a fuck? When you're a kid, do you give a fuck what old people are sleeping together? You could not care less!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:02:20
And if it's your parents?
Kaykay Brady: 1:02:22
Yeah!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:02:22
If it's your parents, you are grossed the fuck out by that. That is disturbing. I mean, I can kind of see Mary Anne's perspective, but I don't think it would be, like, "This is so romantic." I think it's, "Thank God my creep dad is out of the house and is giving me some slack." So I can see her being, like, relieved. But not, like, into this.
Kaykay Brady: 1:02:47
I know. And that's the other thing is all the- the Shillaber twins are into it. People at the lunch table. It's like, what? Oh, at the barbecue, they're all freaking out over it.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:02:57
Fantasizing about what their wedding would look like.
Kaykay Brady: 1:02:59
Yeah!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:02:59
That's not- no.
Kaykay Brady: 1:03:01
It did not ring true.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:03:03
I think Ann M. Martin, she has really good takes on what kids of divorce are feeling, and what their lives are like. But that is where I go, "Oh, she definitely grew up with married parents."
Kaykay Brady: 1:03:18
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:03:18
Because that's just not- that's not real.
Kaykay Brady: 1:03:21
Well, and also- so at a certain age, I think it's under 10? No, over 10. Kids, the sort of main fantasy that they have is that their parents will get back together. So under 10, kids tend to blame themselves, tend to have a lot of kind of fantastical thinking around it. And a lot of internalizing it as their own fault. Because when you're that little, you would prefer to interpret everything as your own fault. And to just interpret that, like, the world is out of control. It's like easier to just be like, either this was my fault or something like that. And then when you're over 10, you tend to just have hope, you know, kind of the Parent Trap thing where your parents are going to get back together and you sort of hold out that hope. That's really typical, but not your dad's ex-girlfriend. Who gives a shit?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:04:09
Right. Well, and I think that this comes from, I suspect Ann M. Martin has a great affection for the movie The Parent Trap.
Kaykay Brady: 1:04:17
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:04:17
I can't remember if it's in this book, or if it's in the fourth book, where Dawn and Mary Anne actually talk about The Parent Trap. So I think she's trying to work that in, but The Parent Trap isn't real.
Kaykay Brady: 1:04:31
And you're blowing my mind.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:04:32
Spoiler alert.
Kaykay Brady: 1:04:34
We don't want to spoil you on that, but we will. Now that we're here, what the fuck is a ham face? Do you remember this? What...
Brooke Suchomel: 1:04:46
Yes.
Kaykay Brady: 1:04:46
And they say it a million fucking times that that little kid Marnie keeps giving something called a "ham face."
Brooke Suchomel: 1:04:53
So they say she scrunches up her nose, at the beginning, and the kids explain, "That means she's happy. We call it her 'ham face.'" Why they call it the ham face? I do not know.
Kaykay Brady: 1:05:05
She probably loves ham! And let me tell ya...
Brooke Suchomel: 1:05:08
She just loves ham. It's just the face that she makes when she's eating ham.
Kaykay Brady: 1:05:10
I do! Because, look…
Brooke Suchomel: 1:05:13
That's what the ham face is! Kaykay, the face you make when you're eating ham? That's a ham face.
Kaykay Brady: 1:05:18
Okay, so, thank you. This makes so much sense to me, because the ham is so good on the East coast. Oh my God. When I moved to California, I was so sad to lose ham. You go to a fuckin' deli in California and you say, "Can I just have a half a pound of thinly sliced boiled ham?" They look at you like you're crazy. They don't have boiled ham here! They only have bullshit, honey-roasted nonsense. And it's not thin sliced, they slice deli meat in California like they're making coasters for your table. It's ridiculous. So my sister, when she visits, she sometimes just smuggles like a pound of thinly-sliced boiled ham for me. And they call it a ham baby.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:06:04
I love that ham is making like a cross-country voyage.
Kaykay Brady: 1:06:08
Yeah!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:06:08
Just- I'm just picturing what that ham is like after traveling all day.
Kaykay Brady: 1:06:12
It's fantastic.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:06:13
In an airplane. Just hot ham. Hot ham water.
Kaykay Brady: 1:06:16
Hot ham water! Arrested Development shout out. Yes! We knew it had to happen at some point.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:06:22
I'm surprised it's taken this long.
Kaykay Brady: 1:06:23
Thank you for helping me understand what the ham face looks like.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:06:27
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 1:06:27
And I'm glad that we could arrive at a shared theory that it is the face she makes when she eats a good thinly sliced boiled ham.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:06:35
Right. So the ham face will make an appearance many times over.
Kaykay Brady: 1:06:39
Oh, wow.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:06:40
Get used to the ham face.
Kaykay Brady: 1:06:41
I'm so glad. I love it.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:06:42
There were a lot of things that end up making frequent appearances in future Baby-Sitters Club books that make their first appearance in this book. So I hope you enjoyed the game of Let's All Come In.
Kaykay Brady: 1:06:55
That was hilarious. I thought that so rang true for like what a little kid would call a game.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:07:00
Yeah, "Let's All Come In." And it's just, you're basically playing Grand Hotel.
Kaykay Brady: 1:07:04
It's not called "Hotel."
Brooke Suchomel: 1:07:06
No.
Kaykay Brady: 1:07:06
It's called "Let's All Come In." This stupid game that they...
Brooke Suchomel: 1:07:09
Kaykay Brady: 1:07:10
Say what you see, Gareth!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:07:12
And I love that the characters that they play are wealthy old women in furs, which- I call dibs on that. That's amazing.
Kaykay Brady: 1:07:20
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:07:21
And also sea captains?
Kaykay Brady: 1:07:23
I call dibs on that! That rings bells for me. I'll wear a nice ascot.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:07:30
God, I would love that.
Kaykay Brady: 1:07:30
I have a captain hat less than 10 feet behind me in a closet.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:07:34
Who doesn't?
Kaykay Brady: 1:07:36
No friend of mine!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:07:38
So Let's All Come In is going to be a staple, as is Ben Brewer, the potential ghost of Ben Brewer.
Kaykay Brady: 1:07:44
Oh, right.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:07:45
And then Dawn's house, and how she talks a lot about, it was built in 1795. The low doorways. The whole, like, "people were shorter in colonial times" myth that I just adore. But when they talk about checking the walls for an old diary- holy shit, that's all I wanted to do. And still, to this day, set me loose in an abandoned house...
Kaykay Brady: 1:08:14
And you wanna find a diary.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:08:14
And I'm gonna, like, dig through...I want to find an old diary. I want to find old newspaper clippings, like…
Kaykay Brady: 1:08:19
Has this ever happened for you?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:08:21
No. It's just a lifelong fantasy, thanks to this book right here.
Kaykay Brady: 1:08:26
Oh, I see, it was implanted.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:08:28
The Baby-sitters Club planted that in my head. And when they fantasize about, "Maybe our house was a stop on the Underground Railroad," I mean! I was jealous as hell. So I just- I just love, love, love how it's the introduction to just how this house was like, speaking of blank canvasses, like we did earlier, it's a blank canvas.
Kaykay Brady: 1:08:50
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:08:51
For history. Like, you can imagine anything happening there.
Kaykay Brady: 1:08:54
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:08:54
Over time. And the idea that you might make some sort of a discovery is just really exciting, so I loved that.
Kaykay Brady: 1:09:02
Yeah, and there is that great history on the East coast that you don't get, you know, when you go west. You know, you really feel the the age and- I don't know, I always feel ghosts. Like, in those old houses on the East coast, I feel ghosts. I feel ghosts in the trees. I feel a lot of sort of spiritual presence.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:09:23
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 1:09:23
And then when you come to California, I don't feel it at all. It's just feels so light here.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:09:28
Well, a lot of that has been taken away, right? Because our California history, so much of it is, you know, with native peoples and it's all been destroy...
Kaykay Brady: 1:09:38
Yeah. Well, same with- I mean, upstate New York!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:09:40
But there was very little, you know, quote unquote, "settlement," besides, you know, the Spanish missions.
Kaykay Brady: 1:09:47
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:09:47
Which you can still find in some places, but there isn't that real connection to history like that I notice when I go over, you know, when I've been over to Europe.
Kaykay Brady: 1:09:59
Oh, I know.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:09:59
And you're just like driving through the Irish countryside and, like...
Kaykay Brady: 1:10:02
There's a castle!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:10:03
Yeah, just- and you see these sheep...
Kaykay Brady: 1:10:04
On the side of the fuckin' road!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:10:06
Sheep grazing around it.
Kaykay Brady: 1:10:07
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:10:07
Like, you don't tear things down. Things stay.
Kaykay Brady: 1:10:10
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:10:11
And you might build around them, or you might change them inside. But there isn't this culture of, like, build and destroy, and build and destroy and do it over and over again every couple of decades, so that there's no sense of time, or place. It's just the suburbification of this country. You know, I used to travel all the time for work. I've gone to nearly every state. And it's really kind of sad how, with few exceptions, you don't get a sense of place. Like, your suburb of Dallas is your suburb of Indianapolis is your suburb of San Francisco.
Kaykay Brady: 1:10:48
Suburban sprawl.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:10:49
They look the same. It's all the same. And so the concept of something not changing for over 200 years is very unusual.
Kaykay Brady: 1:11:01
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:11:01
In the States.
Kaykay Brady: 1:11:02
And an incredibly powerful metaphor, given what we're talking about is happening to families and kids during this time.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:11:09
Totally. So to that point, that's really what I had as the thing that they were fighting, is they are fighting change. They are fighting, you know, life circumstances that, at least for the kids, are completely beyond their control. Everyone's in a state of transition. Like, Dawn's in a state of transition, Kristy, Mrs. Barrett and all the Barrett kids, even Mary Anne.
Kaykay Brady: 1:11:30
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:11:30
Like, Mary Anne's room is changing. Like, her home environment is changing in a much more subtle way, but like, that's still a transition. Like, you're literally seeing her room change over the course of this book. And you know, it's really even beyond "change." I mean, I think with the main characters, the titular characters, Dawn and "the impossible three," which- I think "impossible three" is a stretch. These kids aren't that bad. I think the cover doesn't actually really represent what the kids are like, right? Like, Dawn truly has a connection with these children. It's the mom that's impossible.
Kaykay Brady: 1:12:06
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:12:06
The kids are just trying to be kids.
Kaykay Brady: 1:12:10
But you got to sell those books!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:12:12
For real.
Kaykay Brady: 1:12:13
A titilating title.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:12:14
"Dawn and the Dysfunctional Mom." I'd read "Dawn and the Dysfunctional Mom," that sounds dope! So yeah, so I had, you know, what they were fighting was "change." But then also, for the main characters, it goes further than "change." It's like "chaos and gross dysfunction."
Kaykay Brady: 1:12:29
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:12:29
It's not even change, because change indicates that you are going from one point to the next. There's no movement, there's just chaos. And the tool that Dawn uses, again, indicative of the fact that she is very experienced with dealing with dysfunctional environments, is she really starts off by making schedules, right? By being, like, hyper-regimented to try to make up for the chaos. Like, you see that she is the one in her home that makes sure that the house is clean.
Kaykay Brady: 1:13:06
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:13:06
Like, she's very neat. You know, she sort of tends to her mom. She tries to keep everything in order at home. And so when she goes to the Barretts, and she sees that it is just pure chaos there, she does the same, right? Making a schedule, like a very, very regimented schedule every time with like, "Okay, here's what needs to happen." So it's that sort of hypercompetence and control, which, you know, you would know far better than I would given your area of expertise. But I would imagine that that is a common trait for children who grow up in chaotic environments. Like, you're going to be on one end of the pendulum, right?
Kaykay Brady: 1:13:42
Yes.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:13:42
You're either going to lean into that chaos, or you're going to try to harness that chaos as best you can by being super, super strict. And at the end, what she ends up really demonstrating with Mrs. Barrett, when the scheduling alone is not enough, is she defines boundaries.
Kaykay Brady: 1:14:01
Yes. Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:14:02
I would say she doesn't go far enough in defining those boundaries. Like, hey lady, no, she's not gonna do your laundry. Like, even if you pay her, like, a 12-year-old girl is not your frickin' maid. And you know, as well as being the substitute You.
Kaykay Brady: 1:14:17
Exactly. Your partner.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:14:19
Right, exactly. But I did think that, you know, Ann M. Martin, in this book, does give kids a model for what to do if you're being put in situations that are inappropriate for you. And in the 90s version, in her Dear Reader, that's exactly what she says. She's like, "These are things that, if you're babysitting for someone, they need to tell you." Like, if they don't give you a contact number and let you know where they're going to be, you need to ask for that. So I thought that was very good.
Kaykay Brady: 1:14:53
That's beautiful. I can't- I can't improve upon that at all. That's so true. I thought they were fighting being alone. You know, both adults are fighting loneliness, isolation. You know, the divorce for them is probably a lot about that, right?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:15:11
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 1:15:11
The kids are having their own experiences of the divorce, and the grown ups are having experiences in the divorce. And I think isolation, being alone, and also you see it in the kids, too, where there's just this real sense that they don't want to lose their friends.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:15:25
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 1:15:26
A lot of the kind of machinations that are happening in this book are trying to get closer to people. Trying to shore up friendships. So yeah, I felt that they were kind of fighting that. Fighting isolation.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:15:38
For sure.
Kaykay Brady: 1:15:39
Fighting for more connection. But let's do 80s moments!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:15:43
So we've talked about a few 80s moments, like, you know, being trapped by your phone. Which comes up with not being able to reach Mrs. Barrett, but then also about, like, what's going to happen to the club when Kristy moves, right?
Kaykay Brady: 1:15:57
Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:15:57
A lot of that sort of stress. I love how Donahue came up.
Kaykay Brady: 1:16:02
GIRL!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:16:02
Like, the concept...
Kaykay Brady: 1:16:04
That's what I had!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:16:06
All right. I'll let you take that. Take it.
Kaykay Brady: 1:16:07
No, you go. You go.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:16:09
No no no, 'cause I have another one too. But yeah, yeah, let's go. Let's get into Donohue.
Kaykay Brady: 1:16:14
All right, so... Holy shit, I loved that the adults were talking about Donahue. That felt so 80s to me, and it sent me down this delightful rabbit hole where I found a video of 2 Live Crew performing on Donahue.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:16:34
That is going in the Video Footnotes for sure.
Kaykay Brady: 1:16:36
You're gonna love it!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:16:37
Making a plug for the Video Footnotes, which you will find on our YouTube channel. Follow that.
Kaykay Brady: 1:16:41
I just- you are gonna love it, because they picked their most repulsively misogynistic, horrible song. And it's just, like, terrified white ladies. It all- the whole show is just shots of white ladies, just being so upset. It’s so great!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:17:04
Just Donahue trolling white women.
Kaykay Brady: 1:17:06
That's exactly- like, seeing it in hindsight, you're like, "Holy shit. This is just white women being trolled right now. This is amazing."
Brooke Suchomel: 1:17:17
I'm really excited to check that out.
Kaykay Brady: 1:17:18
It's genius. So, I don't know. I personally didn't watch Donahue.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:17:23
I- again, like, we had no cable, really. And so when I was home in the summer, and I couldn't go outside because of my allergies, so I, you know, had to pass the time with basic cable...
Kaykay Brady: 1:17:36
That simultaneously makes me so sad for you, my friend, and makes me feel so warm towards you.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:17:43
Just indoor kid.
Kaykay Brady: 1:17:45
Watching Donahue!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:17:47
Donahue, Geraldo, Joan Rivers.
Kaykay Brady: 1:17:51
I mean, it explains so much.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:17:52
Joan Rivers comes back with a daytime talk show that was my favorite, yeah. But Donahue was like Oprah before Oprah.
Kaykay Brady: 1:17:58
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:17:59
And, like, a kind of daytime talk show that doesn't really exist anymore. I guess the closest thing would be something like Dr. Phil.
Kaykay Brady: 1:18:09
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:18:10
Who is a complete and utter charlatan, you know?
Kaykay Brady: 1:18:12
Yeah, fuck that guy. Don't even get me started.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:18:14
Like, I mean, Dr. Phil is just not even in the same ballpark as the kind of shows...
Kaykay Brady: 1:18:20
"You are no Donahue, sir!"
Brooke Suchomel: 1:18:22
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 1:18:23
"That's what I say!"
Brooke Suchomel: 1:18:24
Yes. "Dr. Phil, I knew Donahue. Donahue was a friend of mine. You, sir, are no Phil Donahue." But where it was like, tackling a topic, and a lot of times the topics- like, looking back, you know, a lot of the Satanic Panic bullshit, like, were just ridiculous. But also it was kind of dealt with in a more serious- or at least the facade of it was more journalistic than what you get now, which is just purely sensational and, like, exploitative. You know, was much more in the mold of like, what Oprah was before Oprah got very much up her own ass.
Kaykay Brady: 1:19:04
Definitely. It did have a sort of, I don't know how to explain it. I felt like Oprah was slightly more genuine in the show's attempt to understand, whereas Donahue definitely seemed pretty exploitative. It sort of had a sheen of journalistic integrity, but I felt a lot of exploitation beneath it, that I feel like...
Brooke Suchomel: 1:19:26
Yeah, I think there was definitely a scale of exploitation and perhaps, like Geraldo was at one end of that scale.
Kaykay Brady: 1:19:34
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:19:35
And maybe, like, Oprah was at the other end of the scale. And Donahue, I would say...
Kaykay Brady: 1:19:40
Was somewhere in the middle.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:19:41
Yeah, in the middle, but perhaps more towards Oprah. At least, again, facade, right?
Kaykay Brady: 1:19:46
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:19:47
Like, a sheen of respectability that I would hope people realize, like, Dr. Phil does not warrant any sort of sheen of respectability.
Kaykay Brady: 1:19:56
No sheen.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:19:56
Let's be honest.
Kaykay Brady: 1:19:57
No sheen.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:19:59
You would have people talking to each other about Donahue because, again, there wasn't 8 million things to watch.
Kaykay Brady: 1:20:04
Right.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:20:05
And like, thank God all we had at the time for 24/7 news was just CNN. So you didn't have this, like, constant droning of punditry wherever you go, right? So it wasn't like people had gone to their corners to like, watch Tucker Carlson scream at them about who's coming to attack them in the suburbs.
Kaykay Brady: 1:20:24
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:20:25
Like, you didn't have that polarization. Everybody was watching the same show. And Donahue was that show for a lot of people.
Kaykay Brady: 1:20:33
Yeah. And now I think about it, like, I was living in New York City during the crack and mental health epidemics. We were living Donahue. We didn't need to be talking about, you know, we didn't need to be watching and talking Donahue.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:20:44
Right.
Kaykay Brady: 1:20:44
You know, we were living real shit.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:20:46
Right. So yeah, Donahue, very 80s. The other thing that I thought was very 80s came up at the very end, which was just, like, the hoops that you had to jump through, like, the elaborate machinations that were required to get a photograph. You know?
Kaykay Brady: 1:21:03
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:21:03
Where it's like, having to arrange for Dawn's brother Jeff to show up with a camera that he had gotten and getting everybody together so that they could get a picture taken. And like, Mary Anne cries, probably not just because of the thing that she would have, which is a framed picture of her friends to hang on her wall. But also, like, she seems like she's touched by the effort that her friends went through.
Kaykay Brady: 1:21:30
Yes.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:21:30
Like, there was no phone in your pocket at all times, let's take a trillion photos of, like, everything we see. Like, to take a picture was a bit of an ordeal.
Kaykay Brady: 1:21:43
Yes.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:21:44
And then to get that picture developed, right? You didn't even know what you captured, you know, unless it was a Polaroid, which you would not frame on the wall 'cause the quality was so shit, right?
Kaykay Brady: 1:21:56
Yep.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:21:56
You would be taking this to a photo developing place to get developed. This would have been before the time of one hour photo, so who knows how long it would have taken to come back. Like, photos were expensive to get developed, so you kind of ration them. The cameras were gigantic. So all of that, I thought, was very 80s.
Kaykay Brady: 1:22:13
So good. So good. So true.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:22:18
So with Dawn and the Impossible Three, I think we got a very serious book, right? We've gone into a whole new realm of the Baby-sitters Club. And in the next book in the series, which is Kristy's Big Day...
Kaykay Brady: 1:22:34
What?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:22:36
Yes. So we get to see what happens not just in kids dealing with divorce, but with kids dealing with remarriage.
Kaykay Brady: 1:22:44
Oh!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:22:44
So Kristy's Big Day focuses on the wedding of Kristy's mom and Watson, so that will be very exciting to explore.
Kaykay Brady: 1:22:53
That's so interesting. I would not have guessed that that would have been Kristy's big day.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:22:56
Yeah, who would? Right?
Kaykay Brady: 1:22:57
Yeah.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:22:59
That Kristy would be so excited to put on a dress. I don't think so.
Kaykay Brady: 1:23:02
Exactly. I would think that's more like, you know, Kristy's No Good, Horrible, Piece-of-Shit Day. But I'm excited, yeah, we'll see.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:23:12
What do you think Kristy's big day would be?
Kaykay Brady: 1:23:14
Oh Lord. I don't know, making the basketball team?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:23:17
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 1:23:17
Something like that.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:23:18
Yeah.
Kaykay Brady: 1:23:18
Making the softball team?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:23:20
Absolutely. Kristy's Krushers?
Kaykay Brady: 1:23:21
Yeah!
Brooke Suchomel: 1:23:22
The introduction of Kristy's Krushers?
Kaykay Brady: 1:23:23
Like, the day that Kristy's Krushers are born?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:23:26
Right. I really hope Alan Gray doesn't get invited to the wedding.
Kaykay Brady: 1:23:30
Oh my God, is he gonna be her plus one? Is that what you're telling me?
Brooke Suchomel: 1:23:32
I really hope not.
Kaykay Brady: 1:23:33
Because that's gonna ruin the whole fuckin' book for me.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:23:35
I hope not. We'll find out.
Kaykay Brady: 1:23:37
Well I'm excited, friend.
Brooke Suchomel: 1:23:37
We'll find out in our next episode. Until then...
Kaykay Brady: 1:23:40
Just keep sittin'. [theme song] Oh, you're giving me some sugared berries! Thank you, mother!
